IS THE "TEA PARTY" REALLY A POPULIST MOVEMENT?

@hawkeye10,

that's what I would say if I had no plan, too...

and please don't call me rocky.

my friends call me that.

@hawkeye10,

I'd still want to know what policies I was endorsing when voting for any candidate.

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.. this movement is hive like in nature, there is no central planning, and no central plan. There are lots of people with lots of plans which change constantly.

That's way too wishy-washy for me.
Tea Party supporters actually accept that?
They could end up with something completely different to what they thought they'd voted for.
If some party or some candidate stood on the platform of "restoring America" I'd certainly want to know a lot more details of what they meant by it (if I was American) . That's like voting for a slogan & crossing your fingers for the best! Wink

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@Rockhead,

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that's what I would say if I had no plan, too...

Are you under the impression that a plan is required? Ants and bees are two of the most successful and productive species on this planet, and they have no plan so far as we can tell.

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and please don't call me rocky.

my friends call me that

****, are you still pissed about the tiff we had a year ago? Carry a grudge much?

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@hawkeye10,

no, I've disliked you since you got here. nothing new there.

Ants and Bees don't pretend to have political ambitions.

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@hawkeye10,

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Are you under the impression that a plan is required? Ants and bees are two of the most successful and productive species on this planet, and they have no plan so far as we can tell.

Yeah, but they're not attempting to govern countries! Neutral

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@msolga,

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I'd still want to know what policies I was endorsing when voting for any candidate.

Why in the word would you want that? So far as I know the parties still write up a plank at the convention about what they are about, plan to do, but no one pays any attention because no one in the last 20-30 years has ever followed it after getting elected.

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@hawkeye10,

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Why in the word would you want that?

You really have to ask?
Because I want to give my vote to candidates whose policies reflect my priorities. I think that's how most people vote?
At least, if I know what they stand for beforehand, I can hold them to account. Which includes not voting for them again, amongst other options, If I'm dissatisfied with their performance in parliament.
I can't understand why anyone would give political candidates some sort of free pass, to go off & vote as they choose.

If you asked 5 different candidates what a slogan like "restoring America" might mean to them, in terms of government policies, you might just get five different answers. Some of which you might not like one bit!

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@msolga,

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Because I want to give my vote to candidates whose policies reflect my priorities. I think that's how most people vote?

Maybe things are different down under, but I think at this point Americans pretty much assume that politicians will say what ever it takes to get elected, and then will do something else. The words dont matter much, the plans dont matter much. We want to elect people who seem like us, who seem to care about the same things we do, we dont want to hear about plans that we already know that they are never going to follow. Do candidates even write position papers anymore? I know that Hillary did, but she was laughed at for being out of touch. And she lost.

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@hawkeye10,

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Maybe things are different down under, but I think at this point Americans pretty much assume that politicians will say what ever it takes to get elected, and then will do something else.

But my point was that the tea party doesn't appear to be saying anything like enough about where it stands on any number government policy issues.
I wouldn't think that most voters in US are that much different to Australians in this respect. Most of us want to have a clear understanding about the policy implications of the candidates/parties we consider voting for. Yes?

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@msolga,

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Most of us want to have a clear understanding about the policy implications of the candidates/parties we consider voting for. Yes?

No, most people don't want to put that much time and effort onto figuring out the ramifications of proposed policy that is never going to happen because it is going to get a complete rewrite by the corporate henchmen, AKA the lobbyists, before it ever gets passed. You seem blithely unaware of how corrupt and broken the American political process is, which I think explains why you can not fathom why Americans dont care about what you expect us to care about.

This is why sarah palin, with no experience in Washington, can get up and say nothing more than "I am one of you, I care about what you care about, and I am not going to be corrupt like THEY are" and if we believe her this is more than enough. That is all we need to know, we can figure out policy once we get enough non corrupt people into office.

Edit, I consider myself to be a socialist, I am more leftist than rightist, but as a radical I sympathize with the tea party members. I however have serious disagreements with them.

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@hawkeye10,

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This is why sarah palin, with no experience in Washington, can get up and say nothing more than "I am one of you, I care about what you care about, and I am not going to be corrupt like THEY are" and if we believe her this is more than enough. That is all we need to know, we can figure out policy once we get enough non corrupt people into office.

I think it says as much about the role of certain media interests as anything else, hawkeye.
Where would the tea party be without Rupert Murdoch's influence? Interesting that both she & Glenn Beck are his employees at Fox News. And that they were the leaders of the Washington rally.
If you're powerful enough & you repeat an idea (no matter how simplistic, outrageous or whatever) often enough, you'll get enough people to go along with it. That's how propaganda works. And Murdoch is an expert in this field.
This, however, does not necessary amount to an "informed" choice. Wink

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@msolga,

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If you're powerful enough & you repeat an idea often enough, you'll get enough people to go along with it. That's how propaganda works

You are contradicting yourself, you just got done saying that people want plans and policy. Palin offers none of that, so if you were correct she would be dismissed as a serious voice because it would be said that she had nothing to say. People hearing over and over again that Palin has no plans or policy would convince people that she is not the one. This is not what has happened, repeating her simple message over and over again has made her more popular and important, not less.

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This, however, does not necessary amount to an "informed" choice

My above statement proves that people believe that Palin has informed them of what they want to be informed about. Your snit (I mean this in a nice way) boils down to the fact that the people dont care about what you want them to care about. at this point it should register with you that a large part of what is driving the tea party is that people are sick and tired of being told by know it alls what they should do and what they should believe. Criticism such as your powers the tea party, it does not convince people that they are wrong it convinces them even more that they are right.

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@hawkeye10,

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You are contradicting yourself, you just got done saying that people want plans and policy.

No, I haven't contradicted myself at all.
I was asking how people (like you, for example) could vote for a candidate or a "party" with no detailed policy statements. I still don't understand how you could. It's like blind faith that they'll somehow do the right thing in office.

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People hearing over and over again that Palin has no plans or policy would convince people that she is not the one.

No. That's not how propaganda works. It is the constant repetition of slogans, really simple ideas, omitting any complicating details ... that is how propaganda works. Details are a distraction from the main, constantly repeated "message".

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My above statement proves that people believe that Palin has informed them of what they want to be informed about.

Nope. You haven't "proved" anything, hawkeye. She's told those people what is comforting for them to hear, but this in no way constitutes a plan of action. What would she do? That's what I'm asking.

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Your snit (I mean this in a nice way) boils down to the fact that the people dont care about what you want them to care about.

No. (And I'm not "snitting", either.)
I guess my major concern here is that such a simplistic "message" appears to have been bought hook, line & sinker, without the necessary back-up for voters to make informed decisions.
I can understand, honestly, why tea party supporters might dream of returning to nicer, simpler times. Where the US was in lots less trouble. These past years have been rough for the US. But they have also been rough times for many other countries, too. The UK, Germany, France, etc, etc, will most likely never be quite the same as before, either, for that matter.
It is as though the tea party faithful think what's happened to the US has all been Obama's fault, that the global financial crisis hasn't happened ... & if more conservative forces replace him that all will be well again. It isn't going to happen. It is all wistful nostalgic dreaming. Exploited for the benefit of very cynical & powerful forces. The tea party agenda (even if there was a plan of action!) isn't going to change anything much for the betterment of all US citizens.

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@msolga,

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I still don't understand how you could. It's like blind faith that they'll somehow do the right thing in office.

I have already explained this to you, but lets make another try shall we?

When you pick your friends do you sit them down and interview them about what they will do after you agree to make them your friends? No, you pick people that you have a good feeling about, who you think that you understand, who seem to know about some of the same things you do, who seem in some way like you. Unless you are a user you dont pick friends with your head, you pick them with your heart. Your head does not need to understand, your head is not the part of you that is deciding.

another way: Washington is a cesspool, we want to send people to Washington whom we can trust to clean it up, we dont need to know how this is going to get done and we dont care so dont tell me plans.

Another way to look at this: When I go into battle I want beside me first the guys that I trust, that I sense I can work with, whom I understand and who I think understand me. I will take the guy I trust over the guy with the most book learning, or the best resume, or is the best communicator, or who is the most technically skilled EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

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@hawkeye10,

(I have to go out soon, so this will most likely be my last post here..)

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When you pick your friends do you sit them down and interview them about what they will do after you agree to make them your friends? No, you pick people that you have a good feeling about, who you think that you understand, who seem to know about some of the same things you do, who seem in some way like you. Unless you are a user you dont pick friends with your head, you pick them with your heart. Your head does not need to understand, your head is not the part of you that is deciding.

Unlike you, hawkeye, I take much more than "good feeling" into account when deciding how to cast my vote.
And I consider choosing friends quite a different matter to choosing candidates to govern my country, or my state.
I think it's an excellent idea to use my head when making such political choices. I base my decisions on the philosophy of a particular party, their election platform & my assessment (at local level) of the competence of the candidates.

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there's a mayoral candidate in Toronto who's taken a page out of the tea party book, basically he keeps saying over and over again (and i'm simplifying it, but not much), immigrants bad, taxes bad, and it's resonating, this guys killing the competition, and our economy is doing way better than the Americans, so i can see how this stuff works, but really it's the politics of fear and hopelessness from what i can gather, a carny trick and the seeds and rubes are just falling in line

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Ford

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I think Ford is taking advantage of an undercurrent among "English" Canadians of resentment against the inceasingly diverse demographics of the city. By "English" Canadians, i'm basically referring to the white boys of European descent. It is a rather nasty trick, and it does appear to be working for him.

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@Cycloptichorn,

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Sure - the whole concept was ginned up by Dick Armey and FreedomWorks, his PAC. They get free advertising on Fox News for every event they do.

The Tea Party was brought about so that Republicans who were embarassed to refer to themselves that way could get huffy and yell at people, as if it weren't their party and their beliefs which ran this country into the ground for several straight years.

I think mostly it was a way for them to try and forget about Bush - and to move the conversation on from Bush.

Cycloptichorn

Agreed.

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@hawkeye10,

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another way: Washington is a cesspool, we want to send people to Washington whom we can trust to clean it up, we dont need to know how this is going to get done and we dont care so dont tell me plans.

So if an adult has a car accident, you would put a 3 year old in the driver seat and you don't need to know or care about how they will be able to drive? You would just "trust" that they would do it better than the adult?

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@parados,

If by adults you mean the likes of Pelosi, Reid, the corrupt luminaries of the "Black Caucus" and the assorted authors of health care and financial reform bills replete with unforseen omissions and very bad side effects passed with the sleaziest of payoffs and side deals to other Democrat luminaries, then I do indeed believe we can do better - and the evidence suggests that many others feel that way as well. You appear to very complacently accept the notion that these self-interested professional legislators know what's best for us all. Many don't see it that way.

Moreover the essential priority of the tea party government is not so much an attempt to perfect government as it is to ensure we get less of it; a government less inclined to suppose that it alone is the solution to all our problems.

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IS THE "TEA PARTY" REALLY A POPULIST MOVEMENT?

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