28
   

IS THE "TEA PARTY" REALLY A POPULIST MOVEMENT?

 
 
georgeob1
 
  0  
Wed 27 Oct, 2010 10:51 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

I won't deny that the Guardian is a left -leaning newspaper. And what's wrong with that? What's wrong with a counter to Fox News for some balance? I find it a very informative publication, actually, on all sorts of material & refer to it often. (I have no recollection of you objecting to Guardian articles in the "whales" thread, which you participated in. But apparently this newspaper's material regarding the Tea Party is an issue for you now)


I recognize the Guardian's left-leaning positions on most things, and though I often don't share its perspective, have no quarrel with it. That's their affair and domestic political issues in the UK are something I observe often with interest, but in which I have no stake, and therefore limit my expression. I avoided commenting on the merits of their (and your) views of the whaling matter precisely because they are matters of personal ethical judgment that don't affect or intrude on my life. Instead, I confined my comments largely to the feasibility and practicality of the methods being discussed to "persuade" the Japanese to change behaviors of theirs, clearly based on different, but equally personal ethical concepts. As you saw , I expressed continuing skepticism about the potential of international, but extra-governmental groups to beneficially scold sovereign nations into their versions of good behavior, and the conviction that ultimately Japan can only be persuaded to do as you wish, and not forced.

I did find the Guardian article you pasted, repeating a current very partisan (and exaggerated) domestic U.S. political mantra about international firms attempting to influence our domestic politics, and the supposed activities of BP in this area, highly hypocritical in that the tone of their reporting involved precisely the same thing for which they were scolding others. Indeed I found the whole context about the horror of "foreigners" attempting to influence U.S. elections a bit odd and amusing ... and highly ironic.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Wed 27 Oct, 2010 10:53 am
@georgeob1,
The difference, George, is disclosure. Because you know the source of the criticism is foreign, you have the ability to judge and discount that criticism.

But what BP and other companies are doing is HIDING their opinions and donations behind front groups, NEVER to be disclosed. They are divorcing their attempts to manipulate politics from your ability to discern that they are the ones doing it. That's just plain wrong, as I'm sure you will agree.

Cycloptichorn
georgeob1
 
  -1  
Wed 27 Oct, 2010 11:25 am
@Cycloptichorn,
I don't agree. Even Non-US folks have freedom of speech. I don't always (or even usually) like the comments of others, but I don't dispute their right to do so. (what is permissable goes beyond what is polite.) BP is an international corporation (as are all the major petroleum companies) and they do indeed have a legitamate stake in our election. I don't know that they have illicitly attempted to hide their contributions, or at least to hide them any more than lawfully do national and international labor unions. I agree the Guuardian has every right to report whatever it wishes on these matters. However, the first article posted here from the Guardian went much farther than merely reciting the facts, itself questioning the populist authenticity of the Tea party movement - something I find rather amusing, coming from them.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Wed 27 Oct, 2010 11:31 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
I don't know that they have illicitly attempted to hide their contributions


Hah! Willful ignorance on your part then, because the information is clearly out there that foreign corps like BP are doing exactly this.

Quote:
or at least to hide them any more than lawfully do national and international labor unions.


The reporting requirements for labor unions are now FAR HIGHER than those for corps who donate to groups set up to keep their donations secret. You keep bringing this point up, as if there's some sort of equivalence. There is not.

Freedom of speech in no way guarantees anonymity. There should be no such thing as anonymity in our public elections, outside of the vote a citizen casts in the booth. I think you would have an extremely difficult time building a logical case showing how the American public or our political system is improved in any way by allowing anonymous donations of any amount.

What's especially funny about your account, is that after years of railing at the Unions, you now praise Corporations for engaging in similar behaviors to the ones you previously condemned. I think this is pretty revealing as to the hollowness of your criticism; you don't really care about the rules, you only care about your viewpoint carrying the day. Right?

Cycloptichorn
georgeob1
 
  -1  
Wed 27 Oct, 2010 12:32 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Not exactly. Labor Unions have long violated existing laws regarding informing their duespaying members of the use to which they are putting their funds. Moreover, Since president Clinton the Feds haven't even attempred to enforce aspects of those laws giving members the right to withold those portions of their dues.. In addition the contributions Unions make are often disguised as organizing activities and supplemented with unreported "volunteer" work by their members. I'm not suggesting that corporations have a higher standard of ethics in these areas - they don't. However I am glad to see restrictions recently imposed on corporations that are not also imposed on Unions finally removed.
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  1  
Wed 27 Oct, 2010 01:20 pm
Slate wrote:

Privacy Rights Inc.
Your right to personal privacy is shrinking even as Corporate America's is growing.
By Dahlia Lithwick
Posted Thursday, Oct. 14, 2010, at 6:42 PM ET


Once upon a time, you had to be a person to assert a right to personal privacy. But more and more it seems that the demand for personal privacy flows from large blurry advocacy groups and even larger, blurrier corporations. This trend would be alarming under any circumstances. As it happens, individual privacy rights for real humans seem to be shrinking at the same time corporate privacy rights are expanding.

Disclosure of contributors to political campaigns, and campaign advertisements, used to be an unobjectionable proposition. Now, resisting it is a matter of highest principle. Bruce Josten, executive vice president for government affairs for the United States Chamber of Commerce, told Jake Tapper, "We're under no obligation, as any organization or association in the United States is, to divulge who its members are, who its contributors are." Why? Explained Josten: "We're not going to subject our contributors to harassment, to intimidation, and to threats and to invasions of privacy at their houses and at their places of business, which is what has happened every time there's been disclosure here."

Then there is the National Organization for Marriage, an anti-gay marriage group that regularly sues state governments for the right to run election ads (most recently in Rhode Island) without having to abide by the state's disclosure laws. NOM also claims that disclosure would lead to harassment of donors. NOM will not be heartened to hear about what happened to Human Life of Washington, which had challenged Washington state's public disclosure law using a similar argument. They lost.

But it's not just advocacy groups claiming that they need to protect their members' privacy rights from leagues of nameless nosy bullies. The Supreme Court has now agreed to hear a case in which AT&T prevailed in its efforts to evade a Freedom of Information Act request because Exemption 7(C) of FOIA, protecting "personal privacy," also now protects the privacy of corporate entities. The 3rd Circuit Court of Appeals held that FOIA "unambiguously indicates that a corporation may have a "personal privacy" interest within the meaning of Exemption 7 (C)" and noted in a footnote that "corporations, like human beings, face public embarrassment, harassment, and stigma."

It used to be the case that embarrassment, harassment, and stigma were the best check against corporate wrongdoing. But that was before corporations had feelings. Of course the 3rd Circuit's solicitude for the tender feelings of corporations might well eviscerate one of the core purposes of FOIA, but given the Supreme Court's solicitude for the First Amendment rights of corporations in Citizens United, perhaps it's time to recognize that for purposes of privacy rights, corporations are now people, too.

This growing deference to trembling corporate sensitivity would be merely amusing were it not for the fact that, as the idea of corporate privacy and dignity catches hold in the American judiciary, basic notions of privacy and dignity for actual human beings seem to be on the wane. I am thinking here, just for instance, of an Oklahoma statute that would make available on the Internet identifying information about women who have obtained an abortion. (An earlier version of the bill was struck down, but it was hastily enacted again.) The purpose of the Oklahoma law is to embarrass, harass, and stigmatize women seeking abortions—the precise argument now being used to bar the disclosure of the names of campaign contributors. How can it possibly be the case that campaign contributions are entitled to a greater measure of privacy and protection from alleged opponents than the personal information of women seeking to make the most difficult and intimate decision of their lives?

Or consider the meteoric rise of whole-body imaging—machines that produce virtual strip searches of air travelers. Or the Supreme Court's deeply weird and inconclusive holding in last year's big electronic-privacy case, finding that state employees don't have a reasonable expectation of privacy in the text messages sent on government-issued pagers. Or the recent Inspector General report that found the FBI had spied on American citizens who engaged in protests, demonstrations, or other activities protected by the First Amendment. Or North Carolina's efforts to force Amazon to disclose its customers' purchasing habits. I could go on.

Look. Nation. You can go ahead and anthropomorphize big corporations all you want. Pretend that AT&T has delicate feelings and that Wal-Mart has a just-barely-manageable phobia of spiders. But before we extend each and every protection granted in the Bill of Rights to the good folks at ExxonMobil, I have one small suggestion: Might we contemplate what's happened to our own individual privacy in this country in recent years? That the government should have more and more access to our personal information, while we have less and less access to corporate information defies all logic. It's one thing to ask us to give up personal liberty for greater safety or security. It's another matter entirely to slowly take away privacy and dignity from living, breathing humans, while giving more and more of it to faceless interest groups and corporations.


Source

A
R
T
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Wed 27 Oct, 2010 04:15 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
I did find the Guardian article you pasted, repeating a current very partisan (and exaggerated) domestic U.S. political mantra about international firms attempting to influence our domestic politics, and the supposed activities of BP in this area, highly hypocritical in that the tone of their reporting involved precisely the same thing for which they were scolding others. Indeed I found the whole context about the horror of "foreigners" attempting to influence U.S. elections a bit odd and amusing ... and highly ironic.

Sorry, but I saw your original post as a rather clumsy attempt at "shooting the messenger", George. Wink

Here's another quote (below) from the same Guardian article you took such strong objection to. As one who has objected to "foreigners'" interest in US internal affairs, you really have no problem with with these non-US corporations' attempts to influence your country's internal policies?

If these sorts of donations were being made by foreign-owned corporations to political parties in my own country, I would certainly want to know about it (no matter which party/ies were accepting the funds & whether I supported them or not). And I would certainly be very concerned, rather than amused, by such activities.

Quote:
....Much of the speculation has focused on Karl Rove, the mastermind of George Bush's victories, who has raised $15m for Republican candidates since September through a new organisation, American Crossroads. An NBC report warned that Rove was spearheading an effort to inject some $250m in television advertising for Republican candidates in the final days before the 2 November elections.

But Rove, appearing today on CBS television's Face the Nation, accused Democrats of deploying the same tactics in 2008. "The president of the US had no problem at all when the Democrats did this," he said. "It was not a threat to democracy when it helped him get elected."

The Cane report said the companies, including BP, BASF, Bayer and Solvay, which are some of Europe's biggest emitters, had collectively donated $240,200 to senators who blocked action on global warming – more even than the $217,000 the oil billionaires and Tea Party bankrollers, David and Charles Koch, have donated to Senate campaigns.

The biggest single donor was the German pharmaceutical company Bayer, which gave $108,100 to senators. BP made $25,000 in campaign donations, of which $18,000 went to senators who opposed action on climate change. Recipients of the European campaign donations included some of the biggest climate deniers in the Senate, such as Inhofe of Oklahoma, who has called global warming a hoax.

The foreign corporate interest in America's midterms is not restricted to Europe. A report by ThinkProgress, operated by the Centre for American Progress, tracked donations to the Chamber of Commerce from a number of Indian and Middle Eastern oil coal and electricity companies.

Foreign interest does not stop with the elections. The Guardian reported earlier this year that a Belgian-based chemical company, Solvay, was behind a front group that is suing to strip the Obama administration of its powers to regulate greenhouse gas emissions.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/oct/24/tea-party-climate-change-deniers
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Wed 27 Oct, 2010 04:39 pm
This story does not report tea party shenanigans but general republican trickery.

At 6:38 EDT, it is still too soon for the audio to be available on the internet but the text is. THis is dishonesty taken to new heights, or depths, depending upon your point of view:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=130866296
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Wed 27 Oct, 2010 07:00 pm
Here are some really good ideas in support of the Teaparty.
http://imvotingteaparty.com/
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  1  
Wed 27 Oct, 2010 11:25 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/assets_c/2010/10/paul_conway_debate1-cropped-proto-custom_1.jpg

If Tea Partiers want to be taken seriously as a political group, they probably should avoid stomping on people's heads.

Cycloptichorn

At first I didn't really pay much attention to this post. I thought you were being selective. What I didn't know until catching up on some of my reading is that the man stomping on the woman's head is Tim Profitt. He is Rand Paul's Bourbon County Coordinator.

Quote:
The Lexington Division of Police has identified a suspect in connection to the October 25, 2010 assault of a woman at 600 Cooper Drive.

On the 25th, at approximately 7:00p.m., officers were alerted to an active assault at 600 Cooper Drive (Kentucky Educational Television Studios).

Officers responded to the scene of the assault and made contact with the victim. She identified herself as a member of MoveOn.org and stated she was assaulted while attempting to take a picture with candidate Rand Paul. Division of Police patrol officers took an assault report and forwarded the case to the Division of Police Bureau of Investigation.

Today, October 26, 2010, detectives identified the suspect, involved in the assault, as Tim Profitt. Mr. Profitt is currently being served with a criminal summons ordering him to appear before a Fayette County District Court Judge.


But...
Quote:

Paul Supporter Says Attack Victim Owes Him Apology
(CBS News)

Lauren Valle was trying to offer a satiric award to Kentucky Senate candidate Rand Paul when Paul supporter Tim Proffitt stepped on her head.
CBS News/CBS
Tim Profitt, the former Rand Paul volunteer who stepped on the head of a MoveOn.org-affiliated activist outside of a debate on Monday, said he thinks the woman, Lauren Valle, owes him an apology.

"I don't think it's that big of a deal," Profitt said of the incident in an interview with CBS affiliate WKYT. "I would like for her to apologize to me to be honest with you."

Profitt, a Rand Paul supporter who used to serve as a campaign coordinator for the Kentucky Senate hopeful's campaign, was caught on video on Monday stepping on Valle's head after she had been wrestled to the ground. Valle had been trying to offer a satiric award to the candidate.

Profitt later said he was sorry "that it came to that," but he argued to WKYT that Valle was not an innocent bystander.


Uh... what?

A
R
T
revelette
 
  1  
Thu 28 Oct, 2010 06:28 am
@failures art,
In today's bizarro world as typically we can come to expect:

Quote:
Further highlighting Tea Party honor and personal responsibility today, the chief woman-fighter at the scene, Tim Profitt, demanded that Valle apologize to him. I can only assume Profitt is suffering from the post-traumatic stress that resulted from Valle's head thwacking him on the sole of his defenseless shoe. Poor baby. (Appropriately posted on Twitter today: "BP to seek apology from Gulf of Mexico.")

Meanwhile, scores of far-right AM radio talkers, far-right bloggers and far-right blog commenters swung into action in a unified effort to blame the victim on this attack.

Erectile-dysfunction sufferer Rush Limbaugh, for example, implied that the attack was justified given the fact that Tea Party crazies are refusing to "grab the ankles" and "play nice." So if I'm correctly following Limbaugh's reasoning, one way to avoid (metaphorical?) anal rape is to wrestle a woman to the curb, American History X style, and step on her face. Nice. No wonder he's been married four times. He obviously has tremendous respect for women.


The whole article with links at the
source
0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  1  
Thu 28 Oct, 2010 06:56 am
I don't know if the other side has been posted but in another article from Huffington Post:

Quote:
I have been at a bunch of events before, the previous debate, and the Rand Paul campaign knows me and they have expressed their distastes for my work before. What happened last night was that about five minutes before Rand Paul's car arrived they identified me and my partner, Alex, who was with me. They surrounded me. There was five of them. They motioned to each other and got behind me. My partner Alex heard them say 'We are here to do crowd control we might have to take someone out.'

When Rand Paul's car arrived a couple of them stepped in front of me so I stepped off the curb to get around them to get back out front. At that point they started grabbing for me and I ran all the way around the car with them in pursuit. The footage is after I've run all the way around the car and I'm in front of the car and that is when they took me down. One or two people twisted my arms behind my back and took me down... It was about two-to-three second after that that another person stomped on my head. And I lay there for 20 seconds or so and my partner Alex came and got me up and that's the point where there is the media clip of me speaking.


source
failures art
 
  1  
Thu 28 Oct, 2010 09:07 am
A
R
The Tea Party - "Don't Tread On Me"
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Thu 28 Oct, 2010 09:26 am
@revelette,
The woman was using non-violent techniques to help her exercise her First Amendment rights.

No one has the right to to wrestle a non-violent, unarmed person to the ground.

I wonder if Proffitt has shot her if the Tea Totalitarians would then pit the Second AMendment against the First?
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  3  
Fri 29 Oct, 2010 07:59 pm
Speaking of rallies .. I see there's one in Washington, to restore sanity tomorrow! Smile
Will any of you be there?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/oct/29/midterms-jon-stewart-rally-washington
dlowan
 
  2  
Fri 29 Oct, 2010 08:01 pm
@msolga,
You know...I am wondering if this is the US equivalent of One Nation?
msolga
 
  1  
Fri 29 Oct, 2010 08:21 pm
@dlowan,
I've thought this a number of times, Deb. The sentiments of the grassroots US folk involved appear to be similar to Pauline Hanson's followers :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Nation_%28Australia%29

The real difference between what happened in Oz & what is happening in the US right now (as I see it) is that One Nation did not have such powerful media allies (eg Rupert Murdoch's FOX News, for example) supporting the movement (therefore had nothing like the extensive media exposure) which the Tea Party has apparently received in the US.
Nor did it have billionaire backers like the Kochs. Nor did it receive funding from corporations from outside Australia (no doubt because we're nowhere near as important! Wink ) One Nation was pretty much self-generated.
Even so, it did have quite an impact on Oz politics at the time didn't it? Quite a deal of One Nation's political agenda became the Liberal Party's policies. So while it did not succeed or survive as political entity, One Nation definitely drove the country's political agenda to the far right under Howard.

Also One Nation had only one agenda, really .. race. Keeping Australia white Australian. (It was not called "One Notion" for nothing!) Whereas the Tea Party appears to object to anything & everything currently on the US liberal agenda.
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Fri 29 Oct, 2010 08:23 pm
@msolga,
Several folks are going. There's a topic about it here:

http://able2know.org/topic/161507-1
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Fri 29 Oct, 2010 08:28 pm


0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Fri 29 Oct, 2010 08:35 pm
@Butrflynet,
Thanks, Butrflynet.
That's very good to hear! Smile
I'll take a look at that thread now.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 05/14/2024 at 10:16:56