19
   

Was it a war crime when US nuked Hiroshima & Nagasaki?

 
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Tue 28 Apr, 2009 01:27 pm
@panzade,
panzade wrote:

no test needed...just a note concerning the topic:war crimes

The US Government 's loyalty was supposed to be to the Constitution,
not to anything else, unless it is in conformity to the Constitution.

It declares that it is treason
to render aid and comfort to the enemy.
Failure to have nuked them woud have been treason, unless thay had surrendered.

Thay chose not to surrender until thay had been nuked.





David
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Apr, 2009 01:33 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

High Seas wrote:

Oralloy - from contemporaneous sources you will see that informal talks were held between envoys of the Imperial Court of Japan and officials in Switzerland, Sweden, even Russia, BEFORE Potsdam ...........


I wonder whether Stimson woud have preferred
to exchange the well being of the Japanese
for American casualties, including the bereaved back in America.


Why speculate when you can read Stimson's diary yourself:
http://www.doug-long.com/stimson6.htm

[quote]I regard these two subjects, viz: the effort to shorten the Japanese war by a surrender and the proper handling of Germany ..........
In the first one I have to meet and overcome the zeal of the soldier, and in the second the zeal of the Jewish American statesman seeking for vengeance.
[/quote]

Btw, Truman always denied that he was jewish, though I don't know why.
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Apr, 2009 01:42 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
i assure you...i have never made my opinion known on this thread...because I'm just not sure...rather, I'm reading along, enjoying the heaps of knowledge being displayed...if you wanna bite somebody's ankles...look for someone else
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Tue 28 Apr, 2009 03:27 pm
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:
Oralloy - from contemporaneous sources you will see that informal talks were held between envoys of the Imperial Court of Japan and officials in Switzerland, Sweden, even Russia, BEFORE Potsdam - admittedly at low levels. When Japanese officials tried to meet higher-level Russians (with whom they were not at war at the time, as you know) they were allowed to arrive and then contemptuously told that the Russians had already left for Potsdam. The report of the returning delegation to Tokyo minutely describes the loss of face at this treatment - and that record, as well as many others, have been preserved by all participants. Secretary Stimson mentions it specifically in his diary - and he, unlike others in that administration, was extremely uneasy at dropping these terrible new weapons on what he called "defenseless women and children" in Japan.



Japan tried to talk to Russia about various topics throughout 1945.

Before the collapse of Germany, Japan tried to talk to Russia about making peace with Hitler. They thought that would allow Germany to focus all their resources on the western front, and force us to take resources away from the Pacific in order to shore up the UK.

After the collapse of Germany, Japan tried to talk with Russia about switching sides and helping Japan in the Pacific theater.

Around July of 1945, Japan gave up on "winning the war", and started thinking about "not losing the war". Then they tried to talk to Russia about mediating negotiations to end the war with a ceasefire (but only after we had been demoralized with the huge slaughter of our soldiers on Japan's beaches).

As you say, Russia was not much interested in talking with Japan. And since none of those attempts to talk to Russia amounted to a surrender attempt, we weren't much interested either.


The government of Japan did not engage with Switzerland or Sweden until after both A-bombs, when they actually started trying to surrender.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Tue 28 Apr, 2009 03:27 pm
@panzade,
panzade wrote:
recent studies by German experts has debunked the 500,000 casualties reported at Dresden...20,000 to a maximum of 25.000....still a heavy toll but certainly not in the same category as the A-bombing

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/onthefrontline/3123512/Dresden-bombing-death-toll-lower-than-thought.html


True, but that was probably more to do with the structure and flammability of the city than with any intention on the part of the attackers.

The firestorm in Tokyo killed about 100,000. But Tokyo was a lot easier to burn.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Apr, 2009 03:44 pm
@oralloy,
True, most buildings in Tokyo were made from wood and paper vs stone/bricks in Dresden.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Apr, 2009 03:50 pm
@cicerone imposter,
but NOT true as far as the train station of Dresden is concerned - it contained tens of thousands of refugees attempting to flee the red tide moving in from the former Russian border. Read the American prisoners of war remembrencas of the event.

Anyway - am very glad to say that the people of London SQUARELY turned their backs in every single street where Harris's bier was driving through on its way to the cathedral, and that, furthermore, Harris himself was, while still living after his monstrous bombing of Dresden, technically exiled to South Africa. Go, Brits!

POST SCRIPTUM BY A MISTAKE I REPLIED TO A MAN WHOM I HOLD IN CONTEMPT UNTIL AND UNLESS HE APOLOGIZES. I AM SORRY THAT I CLICKED HIS POST INSTEAD OF THE POST I INTENDED. THANKS.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Apr, 2009 03:56 pm
@High Seas,
Although my response was in terms of "generally speaking," and I didn't mention anything about the train station, I'll accept your claim about "tens of thousands of refugees..."
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Apr, 2009 04:17 pm
@High Seas,
Quote:
....Death is coming for all of us anyway, and it is better to be Lot's wife looking back through salty eyes than the Deity that destroyed those cities of the plain in order to save them....

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1426772
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Apr, 2009 04:38 pm
@High Seas,
Chalk it up to those authors of old who had better imagination than many of our contemporary writers of comic books. Lots wife turned into salt for turning around.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 06:03 am
The »Historical Commission on the Aerial Bombing of Dresden between 13th and 15th February 1945« brought its investigations on behalf of the City of Dresden to a close on 17th March 2010 with the publishing of a final report.

Up to 25,000 people died in the Allied bombing of Dresden during World War II - fewer than often estimated.

During the five years of research, the Dresden Historians’ Commission reviewed records from city archives, cemeteries, official registries and courts and checked them against published reports and witness accounts.

The figure of 25,000 matches conclusions reached by local authorities immediately after the war, in 1945 and 1946.

The report also found that the number of refugees fleeing the Eastern Front who were killed in the bombing was lower than often presumed, and dismissed speculation that many victims’ bodies were never recovered.


Press release (English)

Final report (German)
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 09:23 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

The »Historical Commission on the Aerial Bombing of Dresden between 13th and 15th February 1945« brought its investigations on behalf of the City of Dresden to a close on 17th March 2010 with the publishing of a final report.

Up to 25,000 people died in the Allied bombing of Dresden during World War II - fewer than often estimated.

During the five years of research, the Dresden Historians’ Commission reviewed records from city archives, cemeteries, official registries and courts and checked them against published reports and witness accounts.

The figure of 25,000 matches conclusions reached by local authorities immediately after the war, in 1945 and 1946.

The report also found that the number of refugees fleeing the Eastern Front who were killed in the bombing was lower than often presumed, and dismissed speculation that many victims’ bodies were never recovered.


Press release (English)

Final report (German)


Wrong thread, sorry.
0 Replies
 
cheesey
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 12:13 am
@babsatamelia,
Yes, killing civilians is never acceptable, and in this case Truman went against the advise of his Generals.
cheesey
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 12:16 am
@JoanneDorel,
This is true and those were bad as well.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 12:58 am
@cheesey,
cheesey wrote:
Yes, killing civilians is never acceptable, and in this case Truman went against the advise of his Generals.
Does that make it a CRIME ??

WHICH statute was violated ?





David
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 02:12 pm
@cheesey,
cheesey wrote:
Yes, killing civilians is never acceptable,


Collateral damage is unfortunate, but it has been a part of war from the beginning.



cheesey wrote:
and in this case Truman went against the advise of his Generals.


No he didn't.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 02:13 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:
cheesey wrote:
Yes, killing civilians is never acceptable, and in this case Truman went against the advise of his Generals.
Does that make it a CRIME ??

WHICH statute was violated ?


Don't worry. Truman didn't go against the advise of his generals.
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 02:38 pm
Quote:
Casualty predictions varied widely but were extremely high for both sides: depending on the degree to which Japanese civilians resisted the invasion, estimates ran into the millions for Allied casualties and tens of millions for Japanese casualties.


...maybe cheesey...Truman and the advisers saved a lot of lives...
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 08:06 pm
@panzade,
panzade wrote:
Quote:
Casualty predictions varied widely but were extremely high for both sides: depending on the degree to which Japanese civilians resisted the invasion, estimates ran into the millions for Allied casualties and tens of millions for Japanese casualties.


...maybe cheesey...Truman and the advisers saved a lot of lives...


There wasn't actually any big debate over whether or not to use the bomb. The plan was simply to drop them until Japan surrendered. And as it happened, Japan didn't surrender until we had dropped two of them.

The only person who even questioned it was Ike, and he only raised the issue with a single person, Stimson. And when Stimson dismissed Ike's views as nonsense, Ike let the matter drop and never raised it again.

Most of the other military leaders (namely LeMay, Spaatz, Nimitz, and Twining) were quite gung ho about the bomb and reacted to Nagasaki by having the target of the next bomb switched to Tokyo.
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2010 03:14 pm
@oralloy,
no disagreement there. It seems every Air Force general including Harris and Goering were positive they could win the war with just the use of air power.
0 Replies
 
 

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