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Was it a war crime when US nuked Hiroshima & Nagasaki?

 
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jun, 2005 02:26 pm
"We offered no guarantee of protection for the Emperor."

This is the crucial point.

I dont think Japan would have surrendered unless the Emperor remained "unmolested" and specifically not charged with war crimes.

MacArthur might have had absolute power to depose Hirohito, but not to hang him. I think this slight change in the American position allowed the Japanese surrender faction to win through.
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voldemort
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2005 11:12 am
the thing is, many war people and some people in the government ::cough:: said that the war could have been won without both bombings, at least without the second one, but we decided to ignore that and go ahead with it

i personally do not think that we should have bombed them, but we did. the thing is that japan was about to"surrender," which could have been true, or it could have been a trap, we really dont know.

the thing that sucks is that people today are still suffering from what happened many years ago because of radiation. the US only wanted to do it to show off to the russians what we were made of and to prove that we are the superpower of the world.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2005 02:25 pm
could be deadrat

but there have been some pretty detailed arguments on this thead, suggest you scan through
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oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2005 07:24 pm
HofT wrote:
Oralloy - Stalin grabbed the Japanese islands while he was at it and had nothing to lose by the announcement. It's an amply documented fact that the Russians were shaken by the 2 Japan explosions in spite of their intel having followed every single development in Los Alamos.


Yes, it did have an effect on them. But that was not Truman's motive for dropping the bombs. He was fixated on securing our surrender terms with Japan while avoiding an invasion.



HofT wrote:
On a different matter: Morph here mentions "radioactivity" (undeniable) which you interpret as "fallout" - you of course know better than to confuse the two, even though the Japan airdrops were at relatively low altitude and some minimal fallout did in fact occur.


The fallout was extremely minimal.

The reason I avoided prompt radiation is that he was talking of radiation that would be outlawed as a poisoned weapon.

Fallout could conceivably be thought of as a poison, but I don't see how prompt radiation would count.
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oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2005 07:30 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
>I dont think Japan would have surrendered unless the Emperor remained "unmolested" and specifically not charged with war crimes.


They had their backs against the wall. We didn't give them any alternative but to surrender without such a guarantee.

Even if they had held out until invasion, our invasion would have eventually forced capitulation.



Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
>MacArthur might have had absolute power to depose Hirohito, but not to hang him. I think this slight change in the American position allowed the Japanese surrender faction to win through.


What change?

There was no guarantee that Hirohito wouldn't be tried and hung.
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oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2005 07:40 pm
voldemort wrote:
the thing is, many war people and some people in the government ::cough:: said that the war could have been won without both bombings, at least without the second one, but we decided to ignore that and go ahead with it


Who said this?

Are you talking about things that people said years after the war? If so, the reason we ignored them in 1945 is that the words hadn't been spoken yet.



voldemort wrote:
i personally do not think that we should have bombed them, but we did. the thing is that japan was about to"surrender," which could have been true, or it could have been a trap, we really dont know.


All we knew when we dropped the bombs is that they wanted to negotiate unacceptable surrender terms.

We had no idea that they were about to surrender on our terms.



voldemort wrote:
the US only wanted to do it to show off to the russians what we were made of and to prove that we are the superpower of the world.


No, we were only doing it to show off to the Japanese government, to shock them into accepting our surrender terms.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 02:45 am
Oralloy asks

"What change? "

and this is a fair question.

The published record shows none. And indeed if this was the case I would have to concede that the A bombs did finally swing the balance for Japan to surrender unconditionally.

But it is my understanding that certain documents surrounding the final surrender remain classified. Why?
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 03:21 am
From review of article by

Bernstein, Barton J.
Article Title The Perils and Politics of Surrender: Ending the War with Japan and Avoiding the Third Atomic Bomb

Periodical Title Pacific Historical Review

quote

"The author stresses the heavy politics that affected Truman's decision to continue conventional bombing while refraining from using a third atomic bomb (available for use by August 18 or 19) until Japan had had ample time to consider unconditional surrender. The author questions whether Truman would have ordered the use of a third atomic bomb, since he may have been influenced by Stimson's moral arguments against its use. He states that Truman preferred to compromise over peace terms rather than endure the prospect of killing more Japanese civilians."

---------------------------------------


Truman preferred to compromise? How can you compromise over unconditional surrender?

Was there a secret clause regarding treatment of the Emperor which allowed the Japanese to surrender "unconditionally"?

I think there must have been.
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HofT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 04:19 am
Steve - what is your source for saying that some documents from that period remain classified to this day?
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HofT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 04:19 am
P.S. to my knowledge all documents from 1945 are available via the "Freedom of Information" Act.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 04:57 am
My source?

I heard it somewhere .....Smile

Sorry Helen cant prove the existance of secret documents nor the none existance of those that dont actually exist.

ok I'll do some proper research ...

But seriously, I did recall hearing, and I wouldn't make this up would I (ok pre senile dementia a possibility) that not all documents relating to the surrender are in the public domain.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 04:58 am
deleted double post
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jun, 2005 11:47 pm
I just found this, which certainly is of some important historical information:

A Nagasaki Report
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 03:18 am
Thanks Walter

Weller's reports have been printed in the Guardian.

Interesting that he got to Nagasaki ahead of the American scientific study team.

There is no doubt in my mind that the effects of the plutonium bomb were of great interest to atomic scientists. Whether by design or accident, Nagasaki and Hiroshima presented unique opportunities for study of nuclear warfare, never thank God, repeated.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 07:18 am
Quite the interesting fellow, Weller:

The Chicago [i]Sun-Times[/i], Dec. 21, 2001 wrote:
George Weller, 95, Daily News reporter

December 21, 2002

BY BRENDA WARNER ROTZOLL STAFF REPORTER


George Weller of the Chicago Daily News was one of the outstanding foreign correspondents of the 20th century. He also was one of the most captured as he kept crossing front lines in search of the day's front-page news.

Mr. Weller escaped from the Gestapo in 1940; fled Singapore after its fall; sneaked into Nagasaki, Japan, ahead of Gen. Douglas MacArthur's forces; was held captive by the communist Chinese as they battled Chiang Kai-shek's Nationalists in Manchuria, and was held incommunicado for 30 hours in East Germany in 1957. In between, he swam the Bosporus, predicted the outbreak of Israel's Six-Day War in 1967 six days before it happened, and tracked the major events of the day throughout the Mediterranean Basin and beyond.

During his half-century career, he won the Pulitzer Prize in 1943 for foreign reporting, the George Polk Award and was named a Neimann Fellow. He wrote several books based on his war and post-war experiences.

Mr. Weller died Thursday at his home of many years in San Felice Circeo, Italy, about two hours south of Rome. He was 95.

His wife, former International News Service and Daily News correspondent Charlotte Ebener, died in 1990.

Mr. Weller was born in Boston, graduated from Harvard University in 1929, studied acting in Vienna, wrote a novel about life at Harvard and was named to the Balkan reporting team of the New York Times. He switched to the Daily News as World War II began in Europe.

Mr. Weller escaped from burning Salonika, Greece, half an hour ahead of the Germans; fled on small fishing boats to Athens, where he stayed until the Germans took over, and was held captive by the Gestapo two months in Vienna. He made his way to Africa and wangled an exclusive interview with Free French leader Gen. Charles de Gaulle.

From there he flew to Singapore just before its fall, went on to Java, and when Japanese forces took that island, fled to Australia on a boat that was bombed repeatedly.

Held in Australia and unable to get to the front, his interviews of returning soldiers and sailors led to his Pulitzer for his story of the way pharmacist's mate Wheeler B. Lipes performed an emergency appendectomy in a submarine submerged in enemy waters. The story figured in the Cary Grant movie "Destination Tokyo."

As U.S. forces neared Japan, MacArthur forbade correspondents to go ashore. Mr. Weller hired a Japanese rowboat to take him to Nagasaki, and the general retaliated by killing all 30,000 words Mr. Weller filed.

Mr. Weller met Ebener, his wife of 42 years, in 1946 when they were in a group of correspondents held for three weeks in Manchuria by the advancing communist Chinese army. They married in 1948.

They soon teamed up as Daily News foreign correspondents, and covered the Balkans, Mideast and Africa from Rome, where he headed the Daily News bureau.

Mr. Weller filed his copy to the Daily News over the wires of United Press International, usually showing up after midnight.

"He had little briefcases filled with notes from each country on his beat with all his contacts. If he got called in the middle of the night, he just grabbed a bag for the country in question and went," former UPI Rome bureau manager Bill Bell said.

"If the Daily News had an award such as the Congressional Medal of Honor for services above and beyond the call of duty, it would long ago have been conferred upon him," that newspaper said in an editorial in the 1940s.

Mr. Weller is survived by a son, Anthony; a daughter, Ann Tagge; a nephew, Michael Weller, two grandchildren and several great-grandchildren.


The article points out it was MacArthur's ego (he was furious Weller had circumvented orders regarding unauthorized travel in immediate post-surrender Japan), not any sort of institutional censorship of news from the bombing sites, that quashed Weller's Nagasaki stories.
Quote:
... As U.S. forces neared Japan, MacArthur forbade correspondents to go ashore. Mr. Weller hired a Japanese rowboat to take him to Nagasaki, and the general retaliated by killing all 30,000 words Mr. Weller filed ...


Weller's son, who found and publicized the long-sequestered filings, is working on a book detailing his fahter's remarkable life and deeds as a globe-trotting hot-spot reporter. I for one will be buying it as soon as it comes out.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 07:31 am
very interesting Timber, we heard you loud and clear first time.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 08:06 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
very interesting Timber, we heard you loud and clear first time.


Laughing Embarrassed Laughing


Yeah, I'm pretty good at screwin' up on that "Submit" button, aren't I? I caught that, and changed it, but I guess you busted me before the change took Laughing
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 10:01 am
only mentioned it because spotting a Triple Post is pretty rare and gets you lots of brownie points. Smile
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 01:43 pm
Laughing Well, whaddaya expect? When I do scew up, its rarely a minor scewup Laughing
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 01:50 pm
actually noticed serveral people have had to delete double posts recently....something wrong with the system?
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