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Was it a war crime when US nuked Hiroshima & Nagasaki?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jun, 2005 09:57 pm
orally, I really think you are doing a good job of refuting each post made by Morphling, but it really isn't necessary. Those of us who lived through those times have learned the pros and cons for the use of the atom bombs against Japan. No matter what the arguments presented to call it a crime, Japan was not ready to accept unconditional surrender. It was an internal problem in Japan between the Hawks and the Doves. The US made the offer for Japan to surrender, but Japan tried to work with Russia as an intermediary - with conditions to safeguard Hirohito who was considered a god in Japan. The Doves were also afraid of the Hawks, and kept their negotiation with Russia secret.

Here are the facts:

"Japan seeks peace through the Soviets

In the meantime, the Japanese government was attempting to persuade the Soviet Union to mediate a surrender for Japan that would not be unconditional. This was in response to the Emperor's request at a Big Six meeting on June 22, 1945 to seek peace thru the Soviets, who were the only major member of the Allies that had a neutrality pact with Japan at the time (JDTS, pg. 118-120). Unfortunately for all concerned, Japan's leaders were divided over precisely what terms should be sought to end the war, with the Japanese military leaders still wishing to avoid anything that the Allies would have considered a clear "surrender". Surely Japan's leaders hold the lion's share of the responsibility for the fate that befell Japan."
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jun, 2005 10:07 pm
Morphling89 wrote:
Note: I have not used ANY hindsight. I have only used the information that Truman had known for months when he dropped the bomb.

Your entire argument, and all support you have provided for same, entirely consists of hindsight, that of it, anyway, which is not pure fabrication or lunatic rambling. The best available intelligence at the time indicated the Japanese Government was neither willing nor ready to surrender unconditionally, and was preparing for a desperate, last-stand homeland defense. Postwar investigation revealed this final defence was far better equipped and organized than had been suspected; not only hundreds of thousands of Allied casualies would have ensued, but literally millions of Japanese - civilian and military alike - would have paid the price.

As mentioned elsewhere on this thread, the Japanese defenses of Saipan, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa each in greater magnitude successively stunned the US. No reasonable assumption could be made that the final defense would be anything less than the most determined, vicious, costly in history.

Note to oralloy (or anyone else who saw my goof) - you're not goin' nuts; I screwed up, caught it, and fixed it. Sorry if there was any confusion. If you didn't see it, it never happened Mr. Green :wink: - timber
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jun, 2005 11:23 pm
Apologies if this is a double post, but my first answer to this seems to have vanished.

Morphling89 wrote:
The United States knew why Japan refused to except unconditional surrender. As early as Jan. 1945, 7 months before Hiroshima was bombed, General Douglas MacArthur handed the White House a 40 page report on the recent peace attempts of the Japanese. The peace attempts were exactly identical to the terms eventually accepted. They differed by only one clause: that Hiroheto be granted safety. The United States repeatedly refused to meet this one condition to peace, and as a result thousands of Americans and hundreds of thousands of Japanese died.


These surrender attempts came from a powerless faction of the Japanese, and they were doing it without the backing of the Japanese government.

The Japanese government did not decide they wanted to surrender until August 2.

The Japanese government did not decide to surrender with just a condition for the Emperor until August 10 (after the Second A-bomb).

Their one condition was not just for his safety, but his complete sovereignty as Japanese ruler.


It is true that we did not accept this condition. We were getting ready to nuke them again over it when Japan dropped it and accepted our terms without condition.

I am not sure of the number of deaths between August 10, when Japan tried to surrender with just one condition, and August 14, when Japan accepted our terms unconditionally.



Morphling89 wrote:
Note: I have not used ANY hindsight. I have only used the information that Truman had known for months when he dropped the bomb.


In another post you quoted a bunch of military leaders and studies that used hindsight to judge that the A-bombs were not necessary.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jun, 2005 11:24 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
orally, I really think you are doing a good job of refuting each post made by Morphling, but it really isn't necessary.


It's fun though, even if it isn't necessary.

But I think it is necessary. If the stuff is left on the internet unchallenged, people will find it when they are trying to research the topic online, and they will come away believing things that are untrue.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jun, 2005 11:33 pm
ossobuco wrote:
HofT wrote:
Ref. Ossobuco's father's work on the Able and Baker nuclear tests:

"Planned operations included detonation of two devices in two separate tests code named Able and Baker. The location to be used was Bikini Atoll and its lagoon, recently vacated by the Bikinians. As a safety measure, islanders from Eniwetok, Rongelap and Wotho atolls were also relocated from their homes for the duration of Operation Crossroads."
http://nuclearhistory.tripod.com/testing.html#eni


Yes.

That was the place.

Do you wonder I am anti bomb?



I'm not questioning your decision to be anti-bomb, but I don't see why these tests would make you so.

Sounds like your dad had a cool job.


One of those explosions used the core that was about to be dropped on Tokyo if the Japanese hadn't accepted our terms unconditionally.


This core also killed the two guys who wrote the book on safety for the labs.

One of them was showing off to spectators by bringing the core up to the edge of criticality by hand, and he slipped, giving himself a lethal dose of radiation.

A short time later, the other guy did the same thing.

Despite their folly, they did a decent job of writing safety standards, and after their deaths, those safety standards were actually followed.



(My recounting of the story of their deaths is from memory and could have gotten a minor detail wrong.)
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jun, 2005 11:41 pm
Xavier wrote:
It was a crime as it is a crime to slaughter human beings in Iraq, Afghanistan, Panama, Grenada, Korea, Viet Nam, Lybia, Palestine, etc...
As a Christian, I am for peace.
Regards
Xavier


Not all war is a crime.

Afghanistan is a legal war of self-defense, waged against people who committed an atrocity that amounts to a crime against peace, a crime against humanity, and a violation of the laws of war.

I think Korea was authorized by the Security Council, and was thus legal.

The first war against Iraq was also sanctioned by the Security Council.

With Libya, we were acting in self defense given their repeated terrorist attacks.

I don't think we (the US) are doing anything in Palestine. Israel was, but the Palestinians were also doing things to the Israelis. Things over there seem to be calming down now though.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jun, 2005 11:47 pm
timberlandko wrote:
Note to oralloy (or anyone else who saw my goof) - you're not goin' nuts; I screwed up, caught it, and fixed it. Sorry if there was any confusion. If you didn't see it, it never happened Mr. Green :wink: - timber


I don't think I caught it.

I think I saw a version of your post without your disclaimer, but I must have missed the goof in question.

I reloaded several times to see if I could find where my last post to Morphling89 went, and now my oldest open window has the edited version of your message.
0 Replies
 
HofT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Jun, 2005 09:53 am
Posting in support of Oralloy's statement about the 2 technicians and the radioactive core - anyone who doesn't recognize what Oralloy's name has to do with said core better look it up, btw.

Didn't want to insist on the "anti-bomb" statement since it was given as part of family history, but I also wondered about both its origins and its meaning: if the latter is identical to the position of the people who used to say they're against nuclear war, one question:

Do they know anybody in favor?
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jun, 2005 12:04 pm
Been away for a few days in sunny cornwall, so havent followed all posts, but certainly some interesting ones thanks.

Oralloy, or should we now call you mr Heu? (thanks helen)

are you still of the opinion that dropping the bomb was necessary but at the same time it was a crime?

I questioned you on this a week or more ago because I did not understand "where you were coming from" and you clearly answered in the affirmative, much to my surprise, so I ask again...
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jun, 2005 01:57 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
>Been away for a few days in sunny cornwall, so havent followed all posts, but certainly some interesting ones thanks.

>Oralloy, or should we now call you mr Heu? (thanks helen)

>are you still of the opinion that dropping the bomb was necessary but at the same time it was a crime?

>I questioned you on this a week or more ago because I did not understand "where you were coming from" and you clearly answered in the affirmative, much to my surprise, so I ask again...



I've never been of the opinion that it was necessary.

My point is that we did not realize that it wasn't necessary at the time we dropped the bomb.

We only realized that it was not necessary long after the war was over.


I do see it as a crime, as it seems to have been a clear violation of the laws of war.

That doesn't mean I necessarily disapprove of the act. It was Japan's fault that they were acting so badly that we felt we had to commit a crime in order to stop them.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jun, 2005 02:31 pm
ok thanks for that.

this is quite strange

leaving aside the question of it being a criminal act or not (I've said many times I'm not qualified to express an opinion)

You say with hindsight it was unnecessary, but justified at the time to force a Japanese surrender. I say it was necessary, but it had nothing to do with forcing surrender of the Japanese. At least there is a neat symmetry here.
0 Replies
 
HofT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Jun, 2005 09:52 am
Steve and Oralloy - perhaps the 2 of you can agree on the mathematical formulation that it was sufficient but not necessary?!

At least all 3 of us are agreed it was a war crime. Separately: of the people who worked on the project I personally have met 2, Teller and Feynman, the latter on several occasions as he was giving a seminar at my then school; neither had any regrets about his work on those weapons, or in their use in Japan. Szilard and others took a different view...
0 Replies
 
HofT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Jun, 2005 10:07 am
P.S. the vote on the poll here is running practically even - 52 to 53, though we don't have 105 posters on the thread!
0 Replies
 
Morphling89
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Jun, 2005 08:40 pm
Anyway, it was pointed out that an article I qouted was written by an extremely biased right-wing person (neo-nazi). Because of this I scrambled and found new sources for all facts written in the article. Suprisingly, although the guy may be evil, and completely biased, he didn't actually make up the facts. Anyway, our trial in school just ended. It is going to be trough. I am sure we provided a better argument, butsome notable members of the jury were very biased (friends of President Truman) and even attempted to high-five him during his cross-examination when he said that Japan did not need oil to fly Kamakazi planes. Rolling Eyes Anyway, here's what I personally wrote during the trial, except for the witness testimony, that's a boring read. There are two different counts: that he had other options rather than bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and that he commited war crimes:

Count 1

It was 1945. Hitler had committed suicide. The axis was gone. Japan stood alone against the might of the world. We had destroyed 600 major factories. Oil refining capacity was down by 83 percent, and 8.5 million people had been driven from Japan's cities. Japan's very means of transportation, it's railway system, was being destroyed by bombers bit by bit. Japan's leaders feared that soon railway systems would only work locally, and that cross-country transportation would be impossible. Because of a successful naval blockade Japan could not import oil or food, and we were able to prevent 90% of the world's resources of coal and iron from entering Japan. In fact, Admiral William D. Leahy, Truman's chief of staff, told Mr. Truman that neither a costly invasion of Japan, or the use of the atomic bomb, was necessary.
Furthermore, we had been able to crack the code by which Japan communicated, and we used it to read messages from Japan. One message that we intercepted and decoded stated point blankly that Japan could only last 3 months before they ran out of food and oil. Japan knew they could no longer hold out, despite the rantings of their military leaders, and they were ready to surrender on the condition that Hiroheto not be killed or tried as a war criminal. Truman knew this. He intercepted and decoded five messages from Japan to the Soviet Union all seeking surrender. Their only condition was the safety of their emperor. What makes this fact even more shocking is that in the Potsdam Proclamation of 1945 the United States admitted that they were willing to accept Japan's conditions of surrender. They stated, unequivocally, that they were willing to allow Japan to establish it's own government. In fact, when America did enter Japan they did allow Hiroheto to remain in power. However, in public Truman continued to demand unconditional surrender and refused to grant safety to Hiroheto. This raises the question: why would America grant the request of Hiroheto's safety, but refuse the offer of surrender that accompanied it?
There can be only one explanation: that the United States did not want Japan to surrender. Truman was uneasy about Stalin turning the eastern European nations into communist states, and at the Yalta Conference, the Soviet Union had told the United States they would invade Japan by August 8th. Originally, the United States had sought the intervention by the Soviet Union, and even promised Stalin territory in Manchuria and Japan if they invaded Japan successfully. However, political tension between the United States and the Soviet Union had increased considerably since the Soviet Union had first agreed to the invasion after the downfall of Germany, and America now thought they could win the war alone. But they had to do it fast, or else Stalin would invade Japan and seize land for his growing empire. Truman didn't want to sit on a $2 billion dollar project, especially if it had the ability to intimidate the growing power of the Soviet Union, and apparently his generals didn't want to either.
Leo Szilard has provided sworn testimony that in early July 1945, he had a conversation with Secretary of State Byrnes in which Byrnes specifically told him that we didn't need to drop the bomb in order to win the war but needed to, quote, "make the Russians more manageable in Europe." In fact, President Truman himself, said as much, if not more. He stated on several occasions that you hoped our exclusive possession of the bomb would make the Russians be more reasonable. On April 23rd you also told a US diplomat that you had no intention of allowing our agreements with the Russians to become a "one-way street", and that if they didn't stop being so aggressive they could, quote "go to hell." Furthermore the Secretary of War, Henry L. Stimpson, who planned and supervised the top-secret construction of the atomic bomb, wrote of the Soviets on May 14, 1945: "They can't get along without our help and industries and we have coming into action a weapon which will be unique [the atomic bomb]. Now the thing is not to get into unnecessary quarrels by talking too much and not to indicate any weakness by talking too much; let our actions speak for themselves."
Who is the person that made accepting surrender weakness? Who is the person who made mass murder a political pawn in a chess match between superpowers? Who is the person responsible? Ladies and Gentlemen, he is sitting right before your eyes. He ignored the plea of a nation for surrender. He ignored the fact that his naval blockade was preventing Japan from importing the necessary raw materials of war. He ignored the fact Japan had only three months of oil and food left. It is the defendant, President Harry S. Truman who, in his own words, made "the final decision of where and when to use the atomic bomb". I ask you, the jury, to follow the evidence and be the voice of justice. Find President Truman guilty of…


Thank you.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Count 2

On August 6, 1945, the atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima. "A bright light filled the plane," wrote Col. Paul Tibbets, the pilot of the Enola Gay, the B-29 that dropped the first atomic bomb. "We turned back to look at Hiroshima. The city was hidden by that awful cloud...boiling up, mushrooming." For a moment, no one spoke. Then everyone was talking. "Look at that! Look at that! Look at that!" exclaimed the co-pilot, Robert Lewis, pounding on Tibbets's shoulder. Lewis said he could taste atomic fission; it tasted like lead. Then he turned away to write in his journal. "My God," he asked himself, "what have we done?"
Tens of thousands were instantly incinerated. These were the lucky ones. Thousands more had to live in agony with lethal burns for days only to die. Medical assistance was almost non-existent because 90% of doctors and nurses were casualties themselves. The little medical assistance available was insufficient against the primary effects of the bomb and doctors had no way to treat the radiation sickness. An Australian Journalist recalls the scene at Hiroshima: "Hiroshima does not look like a bombed city. It looks as if a monster steamroller has passed over it and squashed it out of existence. In the hospital I found people who, when the bomb fell, suffered absolutely no injuries but now are dying from the uncanny after effects. For no apparent reason their health began to fail. They lost their appetite, their hair fell out. Bluish spots appeared on their bodies, and then the bleeding began from the ears, nose and mouth. The doctors gave their patients vitamin A injections. The results were horrible. The flesh started rotting away from the hole caused by the injection of the needle. And in every case the victim died."
155,200 people died at Hiroshima or within a year from radiation sickness. 74,000 died at Nagasaki. Even today the effects of the atomic bombing linger, with 352,550 people in the Hiroshima area still suffering from the effects of the bomb's radiation. However, Truman showed no remorse over the bombings. In fact, the day after Nagasaki was bombed, millions of warning leaflets fluttered mockingly down on the heads of the wounded and dead. General Leslie Groves, the General overseeing the construction of the atomic bomb, later defended the dropping of the leaflets by saying that the point of the leaflets was to, quote, "exploit the psychological effects of the bomb on the Japanese".
What makes the events of Hiroshima and Nagasaki unforgivable however, is the fact that not only did Truman know that the Japanese were willing to surrender as early as January, but that the United States knew about the poisonous effects of the bomb on civilians. On July 16 a top-secret report was sent to General Leslie Groves detailing the effects and amount of radiation released by the atom bomb test in New Mexico. In it the report suggests that the monitors of the bomb should "not be exposed to more radiation within the next month" because they received "exposures of considerable amounts". It also reports that a local family with one child may have been exposed to dangerous amounts of radiation and suggests that the family be interviewed to "see how they are feeling".
It was only after the war that the American public learned about Japan's efforts to bring the conflict to an end. Chicago Tribune reporter Walter Trojan, for example, was obliged by wartime censorship to withhold for seven months one of the most important stories of the war.

In an article that finally appeared August 19, 1945, on the front pages of the Chicago Tribune and the Washington Times-Herald, Trohan revealed that on January 20, 1945,
two days prior to the departure for the Yalta meeting with Stalin and Churchill, President Roosevelt and Vice President Truman received a 40-page memorandum from General Douglas MacArthur outlining five separate surrender overtures from high-level Japanese officials. This memo showed that the Japanese were offering surrender terms virtually identical to the ones ultimately accepted by the Americans at the formal surrender ceremony on September 2 -- that is, complete surrender of everything but the person of the Emperor. Specifically, the terms of these peace overtures included:

Complete surrender of all Japanese forces and arms, at home, on island possessions, and in occupied countries.
Occupation of Japan and its possessions by Allied troops under American direction. Japanese relinquishment of all territory seized during the war, as well as Manchuria, Korea and Taiwan.
Regulation of Japanese industry to halt production of any weapons and other tools of war. Release of all prisoners of war and internees,
And the surrender of designated war criminals.

The peace overtures had only one stipulation - the safety of the Emperor. However, Truman never even acknowledged to the American public that the Japanese were seeking a peaceful end to the war. Not in December 1944 when China's Chiang Kai-shek had been approached regarding surrender possibilities. Not in January 1945 when Truman and Roosevelt received the peace overtures. Not in mid April 1945 when the US Joint Intelligence Committee reported that Japanese leaders were looking for a way to end the war. Not on June 22 1945 when Hiroheto called a meeting of the Supreme War Council and charged them with finding an immediate conclusion to the war. In fact, the Government discouraged the Japanese peace attempts. In April and May 1945, Japan made three attempts through neutral Sweden and Portugal to bring the war to a peaceful end. On April 7, acting Foreign Minister Mamoru Shigemitsu met with Swedish ambassador Widon Bagge in Tokyo, asking him "to ascertain what peace terms the United States and Britain had in mind." Bagge relayed the message to the United States, but Secretary of State Stettinius told the US Ambassador in Sweden to "show no interest or take any initiative in pursuit of the matter." Similar Japanese peace signals through Portugal, on May 7, and again through Sweden, on the 10th, proved similarly fruitless.
Why would the Government tell Sweden to ignore Japanese peace offers? Why would Truman stubbornly refuse to grant Hiroheto safety, even if it came at the loss of thousands of American, and hundreds of thousands of Japanese lives?
You, the Jury must ask yourselves, was there any reason to bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Was there any reasoning, any justification, any purpose behind the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians? We know the reasoning could not have been peace - Japan had been offering to surrender for the better half of a year when Hiroshima was bombed. We know the reasoning could not have been to guarantee the release of American POWs - Japan had already agreed to that. We know the reasoning could not be ensuring that Japan met our terms of surrender: Japan had already agreed to meet every condition we had outlined, as long as Hiroheto was promised safety.
Could that be it? Could Truman have stubbornly denied Japan's attempts to surrender based solely on his desire to prosecute one man? But no, that couldn't be it because when America did invade Japan, Hiroheto was allowed to remain in power.
So we are left with the cold hard fact that if America had accepted Japan's terms of surrender in January, we would have been granted the same access as we eventually were given, in September of 1945. America would have been allowed to occupy Japan. We would have had control over Japanese industry. We would have had the ability to prosecute Japanese war criminals. We would have had our POWs back. And Hiroheto would have been left untouched, exactly like in the post-bomb world.
However, that is not to say there would not have been a difference. 230,000 Japanese civilians would still be alive. Thousands of Americans would still be alive. Trillions of dollars would not have been wasted in a global nuclear arms race that lead to the creation of more war-heads than are needed to blow up the world three times over.
Truman made the world a very different place, and I for one, cannot say that it's a better one. He violated International Law by dropping a radioactive weapon. He refused to allow Japan to surrender, and the repercussions have been tremendous. Even more unforgivable is that Truman attempted to maximize casualties by dropping the atomic bomb on areas that were "most susceptible to damage." The official Bombing Survey Report stated that "Hiroshima and Nagasaki were chosen as targets because of their concentration of activities and population."
Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury. The atomic bomb has long been the symbol of unspeakable horror. But the real horror is not some invisible terrorist atomic threat. The real horror is very visible. It is right in front of our eyes. The only way to ensure that the events of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are not repeated is to make sure that the unnecessary
use of the atomic bomb does not go unpunished.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cross Examination of Truman

1. Mr. Truman in your testimony you stated that your advisors, not you, decided to drop the atom bomb, correct?
2. This is quite different that what you said after you dropped the bomb. Let me quote. "The final decision of where and when to use the atomic bomb was up to me. Let there be no mistake about it." Doesn't this suggest that it was you, not you're advisors, who decided to drop the bomb?
3. Mr. Truman, in your testimony you also stated that you were not aware of the effects of radiation at the time, correct?
4. [read slowly, clearly] Well, your testimony seems to be in contradiction to a TOP SECRET report sent on July 21st about the July 16 nuclear test. Let me quote the following excerpts from this report: "The monitors all took considerable risks knowingly and many have received exposures of considerable amounts, i.e. 8r total. This is safe within a considerable margin. They should not be exposed to more radiation within the next month". The report goes on to say four days after the test that: "there is still a tremendous quantity of radioactive dust floating in the air." The report also expressed concern over the safety of the locals. "Friedell's boys had made some further observations and are concerned about one family to the extent that they wanted to get in touch with that family to see how they feel. They called me about the legal end - told them there was nothing I could do about it." Mr. Truman, don't these exerpts suggest prior knowledge of the effects of radiation?
5. In your testimony you stated that your personal opinion was that radiation was not a poison but that it was just another form of shrapnel, correct?
6. Isn't it true that shrapnel and bombs will destroy any object, be it rock or a human, indiscriminately?
7. But isn't it true that poison and radioactivity do not affect rocks or objects that are not alive, yet specifically attack the systems vital to life in an organism?
8. Mr. Truman, why not allow Japanese civilians to evacuate by advanced warning before you dropped the bomb?
9. Mr. Truman, why not critically damage the military manpower of the Japanese, rather than killing hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians? There were literally millions of Japanese soldiers massed in Manchuria - why not attack those who were actually fighting you?
10. How would you feel if a nuclear weapon was used against New York City during wartime? [horrified, distraught but understanding]

a. By the most conservative estimates, at least 95 percent of those killed at Hiroshima and Nagasaki were civilians. Are not the civilians of Hiroshima just as innocent?

11. You have often stated that you tried to minimize the number of civilian casualties, and you have even accused the Japanese of purposefully attempting to maximize their own civilian casualties. However, a report sent to you on June 1 stated that the bomb should be dropped on a location with houses that were "most susceptible to damage". Doesn't that suggest that civilians were targeted?
12. The official bombing survey report states that "Hiroshima and Nagasaki were chosen as targets because of their concentration of activities and population." Why would the population of Hiroshima have an effect on your decision to use the bomb?
13. Is it true that Henry Stimpson, your Secretary of War, believed that the atomic bomb could be used to coerce the Soviets to be more "reasonable"? [responses: yes, no]
a. Do you recall what he said?
b. I have documentation that suggests otherwise. May I quote what he said?

"Let our actions speak for words. The Russians will understand them better than anything else. It is a case where we have got to regain the lead and perhaps do it in a pretty rough and realistic way…. I told him this was a place where we really held all the cards. I called it a royal straight flush and we mustn't be a fool about the way we play it. They can't get along without our help and industries and we have coming into action a weapon which will be unique [the atomic bomb]."

14. Did you know the power of the atomic bomb when you dropped it? [responses: to an extent, yes (let this stand by itself)]

a. Supportive: But isn't it true that General Leslie R. Grooves sent you a report, which stated that the conservative estimate of the atom bomb's power was 15 to 20,000 tons of TNT?
14. We had large reserves of poison gas during the war, but they were not used because public opinion polls showed that Americans did not support the use of poison gas against Japanese soldiers, even if it made the war end faster. What then, made it okay to use the atomic bomb, a far more cruel weapon, against civilians?
15. Mr. Truman isn't it true that even General Dwight D. Eisenhower, arguable the most important General of World War Two, and the current President of the United States was opposed to the dropping of the bomb?
16. Mr. President, in your own words, how is you killing 230,000 people at Hiroshima and Nagasaki different from Adolf Hitler killing 50,000 people in the Blitz on London?
17. Why did you bomb Hiroshima despite the fact that you intercepted five messages from Japan to the Soviet Union requesting an end to the war?
18. Why did you bomb Hiroshima despite the fact that that Japan had only 3 months of oil and food left?
19. In an article that finally appeared August 19, 1945 it was revealed that on January 20 President Roosevelt and Vice President Truman received a report from General Douglas MacArthur. This report showed that the Japanese were offering surrender terms with only one condition - the safety of the emperor. However, wartime censorship forced the man who broke the story to withhold the information for 7 months - until after the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. What was the reasoning behind stopping the author from publishing the article?
20. On April 7 the Japanese Foreign Minister met with Swedish ambassador Widon Bagge in Tokyo, asking him "to ascertain what peace terms the United States and Britain had in mind." Bagge relayed the message to the United States, but Secretary of State Stettinius told the US Ambassador in Sweden to "show no interest or take any initiative in pursuit of the matter." Why was Sweden told to ignore Japan's attempts to ascertain terms of surrender?
21. Mr. Truman, by January 20, 1945 you had already received reports that Japan was willing to submit to occupation and complete surrender as long as the emperor was not harmed. Why did you refuse to accept their surrender offers?
22. Why did you refuse to grant Hiroheto's safety, especially since when you did occupy Japan you allowed him to remain in power?
23. Isn't it true that Emperor Hiroheto had been directly involved in the Japanese peace movement since April of 1945?
24. May I quote a speech Mr. Truman made after bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki? "Having found the bomb we have used it. We have used it against those who attacked us without warning at Pearl Harbor, against those who have starved and beaten and executed American prisoners of war, against those who have abandoned all pretense of obeying international laws of warfare." Mr. Truman, in this speech are you talking about the Japanese race in General? [work from there: the people killed were civilians. They were not those inflicting the damage]
25. Why did you send down leaflets warning of a nuclear bombing on Nagasaki the day after you bombed it? US General Leslie Groves, the General in charge of the construction of the bomb, later recalled that the purpose of the leaflets was quote, "to exploit the psychological effect of the bombs on the Japanese". So why did you send the leaflets down on Nagasaki the day after it were bombed?
26. Mr. Truman, do you recall the conclusion, in July 1946, of your own appointed panel, The United States Strategic Bombing Survey?
27. This was their conclusion, and I quote, "Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated". Why did even the panel you appointed find the bombings to be unnecessary?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cross Examination of General Anami Korechicka

Question #1: General Korechicka, do you believe that your Kamikaze fighter plane tactics were effective? [Response: Yes]

Supportive: But isn't it true that most of the Kamikazes were shot down? I mean, Kamikazes were only able to sink 15 ships, and in doing so you used up the remainder of your obsolete air force.

Question #2: General, in your sworn testimony you said that you had hoped the Russians would come and help you. This seems odd, considering that at the time you were attempting to negotiate a peace settlement with Russia, on the condition that Hiroheto be left unharmed. Did the Russians ever send word that they would come to your rescue?

[Supportive info: they set up naval blockade, bombed you, and at the Yalta conference had told the US that they would attack Japan by August 8th.]

Question #2: Mr. Korechicka, how long do you think Japan could have continued war efforts? [Response: a long time, as long as we needed.]

Supportive: That's funny. Because the United States intercepted and decoded a Japanese radio message that stated quite clearly that Japan could only last three months before it ran out of food and oil.

Question #3: Mr. Korechicka, in your testimony you stated that, quote, "as a Japanese soldier I must obey my Emperor". When Hiroheto ordered you to surrender you had to obey him because he was your Emperor and was believed to be aliving god, and without fault, correct? [Response: correct, basically]

Question #4: So, Mr. Korechicka, if the Emperor had ordered you to surrender, even without the events of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, you would have had to comply? [Response: Yes but he wouldn't have done that, It depends]

a. Supportive: General, the United States intercepted and decoded five messages from Japan which all expressed the Emperor's will to submit to surrender on the condition that he was not harmed. Furthermore, the military had a naval blockade preventing oil and food from reaching Japan and had bombed over 600 factories, reducing oil refinement processes by 83%. I ask you, you have provided undeniable testimony that Japan would have fought to the death to protect their Emperor, but isn't that point mute? I mean none of it matters, because the Emperor Hiroheto was negotiating terms of surrender, and his word is law, isn't it?

Question #5: In your testimony you mentioned that you were the highest army general and a member of the supreme council for the direction of war. However, it seems that in your testimony you forgot to mention some key facts. On June 22 the Emperor called a meeting of the Supreme War Council, which included the Prime Minister, the Foreign Minister, and the leading military figures. "We have heard enough of this determination of yours to fight to the last soldiers," said Emperor Hirohito. "We wish that you, leaders of Japan, will strive now to study the ways and the means to conclude the war. In doing so, try not to be bound by the decisions you have made in the past." So isn't it true that Hiroheto, the man who was considered a living god, and whom you must obey without question, had ordered you and the Supreme War Council to seek a peaceful solution to the war long before the bomb was dropped? Despite this, you testified under oath, and under the jaws of death, that you would have fought to the bitter end, when in fact this would have been in direct violation to the orders of your Emperor!
Question #6: General, in your testimony you stated that Japan had three conditions that had to be met before they would accept surrender. However, as early as January 1945, 7 months before the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the United States intercepted Japanese transmissions that stated quite clearly the Japanese had only one condition: the safety of the emperor. The transmissions stated that Japan was willing to be occopied, that Japan was willing to release all POWs, and that Japan was willing to surrender all war criminals.
Question #7: Mr. Korechicka, in light of the fact that Hiroheto was negotiating surrender, that you had only 3 months of oil and food left, and that the United States could have simply continued their naval blockade and air strike tactics without invading Japan until you starved to death, why does any of your testimony matter?

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Cross Examination of POW

Question: Do you believe that the inhuman treatment you and other POWs endured under military capitivity justified the targeting of civilians in Hiroshima?

Question: Were you aware that Japan was attempting to surrender in 1945?

Question: Were you aware that in the surrender terms America had received from Japan by Jan. 20, 1945, the Japanese had agreed to release all POWs?

Question: Were you aware that in the same terms of surrender the Japanese had agreed to surrender all designated war criminals, including those responsible for your own miseries?

Question: How does it make you feel to know that President Truman refused to accept terms of surrender that would have brought POWs home 7 months earlier, and brought those responsible for your plight to justice?

Question: In light of the fact that Japan had agreed to surrender POWs and war criminals in their terms of surrender, can you please tell us, in your own words, the significance of your horrific experiences to the bombing of Hiroshima?

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Main Points from Cross Exam of General Anami

1. America had complete air and naval superiority. Most of Japan's Kamakazis were shot down before they could do any damage and the Kamakazis managed to sink only 15 ships, none larger than a destroyer.
2. Japan could only have lasted three months before it ran out of food and oil.
3. Oil refining processes had been reduced by 83%.
4. The naval blocade prevented Japan from importing oil and food.
5. On June 22 1945 Hiroheto called a meeting of the Supreme War Council, which included General Anami and told them: "We have heard enough of this determination of yours to fight to the last soldiers. We wish that you, leaders of Japan, will strive now to study the ways and the means to conclude the war. In doing so try not to be bound by the decisions you have made in the past."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Main Points from Truman Cross Exam:

1. Truman made the final decision to drop the bomb and where to drop it.
2. Truman was aware of the effects of radiation, due to a top secret report about the New Mexico bomb tests, in which concern was expressed about the possible effects of the massive amounts of radiation measured on the local civilians of New Mexico.
3. Radiation does not destroy any object indiscrimately, like a bomb or shrapnel, but enters the body and begins to affect the vital systems of an organism. It has little or no effect on non-living objects, just like other poisons.
4. By the most conservative estimates, at least 95 percent of those who died at Hiroshima and Nagasaki were civilians.
5. Truman received a report from the INTERIM committee saying that the bomb should be dropped on an area with houses "most susceptible to damage".
6. The official bombing survey report states that "Hiroshima and Nagasaki were choosen as targets because of their concentration of activities and population".
7. Henry Stimpson believed the bomb could be used to intimidate the Soviet Union.
8. Truman knew the bomb's power was roughly equivalent to 15 to 20,000 tons of TNT.
9. General Dwight D. Eisenhower was opposed to the dropping of the bomb; and said that he felt Japan was attempting to find some way to end the war.
10. American intelegence intercepted at least 5 peace negotiation messages from Japan to the Soviet Union.
11. A reporter was forced by wartime censorship to keep his story about Japanese attempts at surrender unpublished for 7 months - until 13 days after the bombing of Hiroshima.
12. When Sweden relayed to the US that Japan had approached them to find out what terms of surrender America had in mind, Sweden was told to "show no interest or take any initiative in pursuit of the matter"
13. Hiroheto had been involved in the Japanese peace movement for months prior to the bombing.

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Rebuttal

The defense's main argument throughout the trial to explain the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki has been that Japan would not have surrendered, and an invasion of Japan would have been devastating. However, the truth is that an invasion of Japan was never, ever, necessary. Truman knew that the Japanese had only 3 months of oil and food left. The Naval blockade of Japan was preventing resources from coming in. Air strikes had completely destroyed Japan's ability to wage war. Simply stated, America had utter air and naval superiority, and Japan was sealed off from the rest of the world within the confines of its Island nation.
Furthermore, the argument that Japan would not have surrendered if we had not dropped the bomb is ludicrous. Japan had offered to surrender dozens of times, and with only one condition: the safety of the Emperor, the ruler of a dynasty that stretched back to before the birth of Christ.
The defense has also noted that many American POWs were badly mistreated by the Japanese. However, what they failed to note was that the Japanese were on a sub-starvation diet because of lack of food, and the Geneva conventions state that POWs must be feed like you feed yourselves. Therefore, if the Japanese are starving, the Americans are starving along with them. However, it is true that many American POWs were unnecessarily abused and even tortured. For this, there can be no excuse. However, inhumanity does not define what is human. What happened to American POWs does not make what happened at Hiroshima right, and it certainly didn't change the fate of those POWs. The Japanese, in their January '45 terms of surrender clearly stated they were both willing to release all American POWs and hand over designated war criminals. They only difference is that, had Truman excepted the terms of surrender, the POWs would have been back home 7 months earlier. For many of them, this would have been the difference between life and death, but all we can do is remember those who died unnecessarily. The Japanese war criminals have long since been tried and convicted for their crimes. Now it is Truman's turn to be brought to justice.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Jun, 2005 01:30 am
Morphling, your argument just doesn't hold water. Japan - the Government of Japan - had offered no acceptance of surrender terms prior to the bombing, and in fact officially and publicly defied the surrender demand; see This Post for specifics. There always are peace factions and war factions - in Japan, right up untill the Emperor's decision to surrender, the war faction was the operative power in the government. The war faction was convinced Japan could force acceptable surrender terms through one last, desperate battle. The peace faction, lobbying for acceptance of Allied terms, maintained that even should Japan stymie the inevitable invasion for a time, the Allies would prevail in the end. This was seen, by the war faction - the War Cabinet, to be precise, the Government-in-Fact - to be a defeatist attitude, and contrary to the code of Bushido and Samurai tradition.

Following the Hiroshima bomb, the prevailing opinion within the War Cabinet was that there wasn't another bomb - their scientists assured them of that. On August 8, the Japanese Ambassador to Moscow was told not only that The Soviet Union would not mediate surrender negotiations, but that as of that morning, a state of war existed between the Soviet Union and Japan. This announcement was coincident with an all-out Soviet attack on Japanese positions in Manchuria. News of that unexpected setback to Japanese hopes for a negotiated surrender arrived in Tokyo at about the same time news a second bomb had levelled Nagasaki arrived.

Throughout the remainder of that day and well into the next, debate raged in the cabinet. A unanimous agreement to surrender was required by then-current Japanese cabinet practice. A deadlock persisted, with 6 in favor of surrender under certain conditions, and 3 in favor of continuing the fight. No Japanese War Cabinet consideration was given to unconditional surrender. The issue was brought to the Emperor, who pronounced that he felt the time had come to "Bear the unbearable". An official announcement was drafted, outlining Japan's conditions for accepting surrender.

The Japanese Army, however, didn't agree, and on August 10th, an official army communique went out to all units saying in part " ... We shall fight on to the bitter end, ever firm in our faith that we shall find life in death . . . and surge forward to destroy the arrogant enemy." To counter this, the peace faction on the morning of August 11th countermanded the order with an announcement of their own, nade in the name of the Emperor. The Army, unhappy, but loyal, grudgingly went along, and while not exactly endorsing a peace proposal, did not stand in its way. The peace faction announced the terms on which Japan would surrender. The decision was made that afternoon that the Emperor would address the people, announcing the surrender as soon as the Allies had accepted Japan's counteroffer.

Around midnight Tokyo time Aug 11/12, an Allied announcement once more reaffirming the demand for unconditional surrender was made. Over the next 24 hours, the government was in turmoil, with the war faction - the War Cabinet, lobbying to commit 20 Million lives or more to the cause of defending Japanese honor through one last frenzy of air, land, and sea kamikaze tactics. The plan and the resources for this were in place; see This Post

On the morning of the 14th, Allied bombers spread leaflets throughout Japan, informing the Japanese people of their government's adamant refusal to surrender, and warning of assured destruction of the nation unless surrender was effected (it should ne noted as well that throughout June and July, continuous leaflet bombings had warned the populace that cities were targets, exhorting them to flee to the countryside). Another Imperial conference was convened, and while there was still much bickering, with the War Cabinet holding out for the last-ditch defense, the Emperor said he felt there was no choice but to accept the Allied terms. The cabinet then acceeded to the Emperor's decision, and unanimously voted to accept the Allied terms. Around 3 that afternoon, an official broadcast announced to the Allies that "acceptance will be forthcoming soon." The Emperor's acceptance of surrender announcement was drafted, carefully refined, and the Emperor's reading of the announcement was recorded for broadcast.

The Allies immediately ceased offensive actions, reverting to ready alert status, while continuing active defense where necessary. The Japanese military showed no sign of laying down its arms, and in fact several attacks were mounted in various areas throughout the remaining Japanese-occupied territories over the next 12 to 18 hours.

In Tokyo, a coup attempt was mounted, and the commander of the Imperial Guard was assassinated. Orders to maintain resistance to the last breath were issued in his name. An abortive attack was launched on the government radio station, its goal being the prevention of the broadcast of the Emperor's recorded acceptance of Allied surrender terms. The insurrection was put down with some violence, and the staunchest proponent of continued resistance, War Minister General Anami Korechika, upon realizing that immediate surrender on Allied terms was inevitable, committed suicide.

The entire cabinet resigned, and an Imperial prince was appointed premier. The Emperor's acceptance speech was broadcast at noon on the 15th. Upon intercepting that broadcast, the Allies announced to their own forces the end of the war. The next 24 hours saw several dozen Japanese aircraft shot down while attempting to interfere with or actually attack Allied forces.

Some fragments of the military still remained reluctant to accept surrender. Over the next two weeks, members of the Imperial family, the General Staff, and higher government officials personally visited garrisons and outposts to specifically express to their commanders and officers the will of the Emperor that Japan accede to Allied demands unconditionally.

Not untill the 25th of August did Allied carrier aircraft begin daily patroling Japanese airfields, shipping facillities and movements, other military installations, and begin close reconnaissance to locate POW camps and begin emergency supply drops to them.

On August 27th, Halsey stood his fleet into Tokyo Bay. The following day, US forces landed at Tokyo's Atsugi airfield, the first US troops to set foot on Japanese soil other than as prisoners of war. On the 29th, the Allies began evacuation of the Japanese POW camps - appaled by the conditions found. On the 30th, wholesale landings of occupation troops began, first in the immediate Tokyo area, then over the next few days expanding throughout Japan. On the 2cnd of September, the formal instrument of surrender was executed aboard the USS Missouri, one civilian Japanese government representative, newly appointed Foreign Minister Mamoru Shigimitsu, one military Japanese representative, General Staff Chief Yoshijiro Umezu, and 9 Allied representatives, led by US General of The Armies, Supreme Commander of the Allied Powers Douglas Mac Arthur, affixing their signatures to the document. A further 10 days were to pass before all major Japanese commands in the Pacific and on the Asian mainland signed individual instruments of surrender. See The Japanese Surrender Documents of World War II

It is my opinion, based on what I have determined to be the best available evidence, that had the bombs - both of them - not been dropped, the prevailing Allied assessment, and I believe that in fact it was overwhelmingly liklely, that the Japanese Ketsu-Go defense would have met the Allied Operation Olympic and Operation Coronet invasions.



Among sources for the foregoing:

Japan's Decision to Surrender: Butow, R
Stanford University Press, Palo Alto, 1954

The Official Chronology of the U.S. Navy in World War II: Cressman, R (ed)
Naval Historical Center Press, Washington DC, 1957, rev 1999

Downfall - The End of the Japanese Imperial Empire: Frank, R
Random House, New York, 1999

Website: Japan Capitulates, August - September 1945
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Jun, 2005 05:01 am
Well hats of to hoft if you knew Feynman and Teller.

I've never met either, but would just comment from tv interviews I've seen that Feynman came across as quite brilliant, deeply thoughtful but with great charm and wit.

Teller on the otherhand, though obviously not lacking in the brain department, scared the living daylights out of me. Probably most unfair, but knowing he designed the hydrogen bomb and wanted to do better...well you have to ask why?

I'm sure you would agree that the hydrogen bomb concept or Super as it was known at the time was discussed from the fairly early days of the Manhatten project. People worried that the A bomb might not be big enough to make its use inconceivable, i.e. it would be a nuclear war fighting weapon, whereas a fusion device having no limit would make itself (and nuclear war) redundant.

This is why I keep banging on (no pun intended!) about this. The advent of nuclear weapons was a world changing event. The relationships between states would be totally transformed. It was in every sense BIG.

This is why I suspect, although I admit I have no absolute proof, that the US leadership deliberately hindered Japanese attempts to surrender in order to test the new devices on real enemy targets. It was a perfect opportunity to "end" a conventional war with nuclear weapons and be able to study the affects, as opposed to risking going into the next war, almost certainly nuclear as they thought, with no one really knowing what nuclear warfare meant.


Timber thats a good post but for me there is a logical error. As you explain in some detail, there was great reluctance on behalf of the military to surrender, in fact many units kept on fighting. The Japanese had by that stage lost millions. They were (or some were) prepared to lose millions more. So what if the American enemy started using a bigger bomb? What suddenly made them accept unconditional surrender with no guarantees about the treatment of the emperor, when they had lost hundreds of thousands of people in the latter stages of the war fighting to guarantee just that? There was no other reason to keep fighting except honour. They were not going to win, it was just a matter of how they died. You dont change views like that with atom bombs.

I believe that after both the uranium and the plutonium bombs were used the American position changed slightly. It may have still been unconditional surrender on paper, but in fact the Emperor was left alone when many people wanted him tried for war crimes. I think it was fore-knowledge that the dignity of the Emperor was not to be impugned that brought about the surrender and not the atomic bombing per se.
0 Replies
 
HofT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Jun, 2005 05:57 am
Steve - hardly "knew" Teller, only once attended a very large meeting where he spoke in the early '80s. Some of his ideas scared everybody (including the military people) like the X-ray laser powered by a thermonuclear explosion, which would of course start by vaporizing the laser and might or might not work on a target.

Turned out the original design wasn't technically feasible after all. Other ideas of his like setting off underwater thermonuclear explosions on Alaska's continental shelf in order to create deep-water ports (I think) were stopped by oceanographers, worried about the effects of radioactivity on marine life, seismologists, worried about a chain reaction along the tectonic plates of the "ring of fire", not to mention the people of the coastal cities of Alaska, worried about the resultant tsunami!

Scary enough, but at least on the Japan decision Teller favored an "exhibition drop" first, not actual use on living people; this is a direct quote:

___________________________________________________________
"Was it a mistake? Should we have done it? I will give you a very complete, clear, and correct answer. I don't know. It is true that the Second World War killed 50 million people. The atomic bombs killed 150,000. Had the War gone on for another month, more people would have died. Yet, could it have been possible to demonstrate? Start the atomic age in a much more peaceful, much less controversial manner? "

http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/bl_edward_teller.htm
___________________________________________________________
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Jun, 2005 06:09 am
Thanks for that hoft
0 Replies
 
HofT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Jun, 2005 06:16 am
Feynman's basic message can be found in this classic - Cargo Cult Science - which applies to quite a few posts here, with respect Smile

"Most people believe so many wonderful things that I decided to investigate why they did. And what has been referred to as my curiosity for investigation has landed me in a difficulty where I found so much junk that I'm overwhelmed."

http://www.physics.brocku.ca/etc/cargo_cult_science.html
0 Replies
 
HofT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Jun, 2005 06:26 am
Steve - you know I agree with you that you have no evidence for the motive you allege in dropping the bombs on Japan. We differ in that I believe that such evidence would have been found by now if it had ever existed - far too many people were involved in that decision, all of them lived a long time after it, and not one can be found to have advocated using the Japanese as test subjects.

Always good to see you!
0 Replies
 
 

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