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Was it a war crime when US nuked Hiroshima & Nagasaki?

 
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Oct, 2004 11:22 pm
Walter,

So if Hitler had been unopposed in his meglomanical thirst for world conquest, we would have a television network devoted to selling the Fuerer Precept to the world?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Oct, 2004 11:24 pm
Well, I don't speculate, how long he would have been ruling, but I can't imagine, this could have lasted soo long.
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lodp
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Oct, 2004 05:08 pm
By "framework of complete lunacy" I wasn't referring to WWII, but the entire system of capitalist imperialism and militarism.

Hitler and Mussolini were greatly admired by parts of US and British government and the elites during the 30s. When Hitler took over, US investments in Germany shot up, same thing in Italy. After all, Hitler and Mussolini were pursuing very business-friendly policies. They controlled the workforce and smashed unions. They got rid of left-wing elements in society. Investment opportunities were improving. Corporate involvement in Nazi-Germany didn't stop after the beginning of the war. Ford, GM, Coca-Cola, Exxon...kept their thing going. As a matter of fact, the system of concentration camps, which was an enormous organizational task, was utilizing IBM punchcard-computers. Punchcards categorizing people (jew, homosexual, communist, roma...) using number codes, were printed exclusively by IBM. IBM engineers configured and maintained the machines on the spot, as there was of course no off-the-shelf software at that time.

Violation of freedom rights of the general populations wasn't considered a problem by US and British elites. After all that provided for "stability" and helped preventing a rise of the masses, who would take matters in their own hands (as happened in Spain). The fascists were opposed only when they aspired to an expansion of their power internationally. That pattern is still followed in US foreign policy. As long as brutal dictators and iron-fist juntas provide "stability" for the region and protection for investments, i.e. play along the rules, there's no problem with despotism and human rights violations. Consider Saddam Hussein in the 80s. The gassing of the Kurds in 88 didn't break the rules. Thus it didn't provoke an intervention. The takeover of Kuweit broke the rules. Consider Suharto in Indonesia, wiped out a third of the population in East Timor, beginning in 1975. It was barely noticed western media, everybody was focussing on communist atrocities in Cambodia at that time. In the 90s the Clinton administration called Suharto "our kind of guy".
0 Replies
 
Rosslyn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Oct, 2004 04:16 am
America wanted revenge on the Japs AND to show off their new tech to scare the Russians.... My opinion anyway
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Oct, 2004 12:30 pm
Rosslyn, you might wanna take a look at THIS. If you do bother to wade through that (and you're invited to fact-check any of it), lemme know if your opinion got any adjustment.
0 Replies
 
cannistershot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2004 04:24 pm
Rosslyn wrote:
America wanted revenge on the Japs AND to show off their new tech to scare the Russians.... My opinion anyway


The United States is still using the purple hearts that were made during WW2 for expected casualties from the invasion of Japan that didn't have to happen since we nuked them.
0 Replies
 
serjosha32
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Nov, 2004 02:59 pm
Were the Japanese following the Bush doctrine of "preemptive response" when they attacked Pearl Harbor?
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lodp
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2004 10:23 am
timberlandko,

The only thing THIS shows is that the US could have commited crimes even worse than the nuking. Even if we accept as uncontroversial your numbers of presumed casualties in a fight against an evil army of jingoist zombies (I hardly believe they are), the fact remains that the US were by no means forced to do it. You narrow it down on 2 options - invasion or nuclear bombing,. However, there WAS the third possibility of offering the Japanese face-saving rather than unconditional surrender. As I said - for US leaders that last option of course was no match for an unconditional surrender that they could get by means of nuclear bombings that came virtually for free (if you don't count the massive Japanese civillian casulties).

This was an imperialist war for supremacy in the pacific, fought on the back of the people of the US and Japan to benefit a small elite. The hundreds of thousands that died were not "the price for democracy".
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2004 11:46 pm
Re: Was it a war crime when US nuked Hiroshima & Nagasak
babsatamelia wrote:
**These were not vital tactical target
sites bombed by the US. The war
was over. There were no bases
here for munitions, no harbors full
of enemy ships and armed forces.
[/b][/i][/color]



That is incorrect.

Hiroshima had the headquarters of the Japanese Second General Army, which was in charge of repelling any invasion of the southern half of their home islands. It was the most important military headquarters outside Tokyo, and had we had to invade, we would have come in from the south.

Hiroshima was also the embarkation point for most Japanese soldiers, and its military districts gave it the highest soldier/civilian ratio of any of their major cities. 20,000 new conscripts were killed by the bomb as they were doing their morning exercises.


The second bomb was meant for Kokura Arsenal, a massive (4100' x 2000') arms-production complex. Weather and other problems diverted the plane, but the second bomb did destroy a couple important arms-production factories: the Mitsubishi-Urakami Ordnance Works (which designed and made the special "shallow water" torpedoes for Pearl Harbor), and the Mitsubishi Steel and Arms Works.


babsatamelia wrote:
**There was no rationale as to
why these two cities must be
destroyed.
[/b][/i][/color]


Sure there was. They had not offered to accept our surrender terms yet and we thought the bombs might shock them into doing so.

That said, I agree that it violated the laws of war, and am vote #34 for yes in your poll.



babsatamelia wrote:
**Was that worth what was done
to those two Japanese cities?? Was
it worth the after effects, and the
after, after effects of the radiation,
the poisoning, the burning, the
deformities. Many people were
literally atomized, blessedly blown
into oblivion... these were the lucky
ones. Scores of others lived,
suffering, dying, burning, surviving
for hours,days,weeks,months.What a
ghastly sight that must have been.
[/b][/i][/color]


The Japanese committed many horrendous crimes too, and they mostly got away unpunished.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2004 02:16 am
Equus wrote:
I would say that, given what we knew about nuclear radiation and etc. in 1945, that Hiroshima may not have been a war crime.

But Nagasaki certainly was. One bomb was certainly enough. It is my belief that the main reason we dropped the second bomb was because we had two designs of bomb: fat man and little boy, and the military wanted to test both to see which was the 'better' bomb.


The implosion bomb had already been tested, in New Mexico. We already knew how it measured up.

The fact that there were only two A-bombs dropped was due to Japan surrendering between the second and third bomb.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2004 02:27 am
BillW wrote:
timber, good thing they didn't know we didn't have a third! Does anyone know the estimate for how long it would have taken to build a third bomb? In war, time spans tend to shorten.


The core for the next bomb was going out the door (literally) at Los Alamos on August 11, when we got word that the Japanese were beginning to break. There were already implosion assemblies waiting for it on Tinian. Shipment was halted, but had it gone forward, it was projected that they could have dropped the bomb around August 17-18.

Shipment resumed on August 14 when we grew impatient with Japan not yet accepting our terms completely. It had reached the coast of California when we got word of their surrender later that day. Had shipment gone forward then, the bomb should have been ready to drop around August 20-21.

In addition, we would have had about 10 bombs ready to be dropped in support of our invasion of southern Kyushu in December (presuming the hurricane would have pushed back the invasion date), and more than 25 more bombs (with roughly double the yield) ready to support the invasion of the Tokyo Plane.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2004 02:36 am
dyslexia wrote:
a slightly different slant: while Japan was attempting to negoiate an end to the war via the USSR beginning in july '45 the condition asked for was the continuation of the Emperor along with formation of a new government, however the Pottsdam conference made no mention of allowing the emperor to reign following surrender,
Dean Achison did not acknowledge the importance of this issue regarding the emperor and after the war stated that it had been his mistake in doing so.


In July 1945, it was the Emperor's representative trying to get the Soviets to mediate negotiations without the support of the Japanese government.

Only after Potsdam was it the government of Japan that was trying to get the Soviets to mediate.

And they never once stated what their conditions were, though from hindsight we know that they had four conditions:

a) The Emperor retain complete sovereignty as the ruler of Japan.

b) Japan be in charge of the trial of Japanese war criminals.

c) Japan be in control of the demobilization and disarmament of their military forces.

d) No occupation of the Japanese islands.


After the second A-bomb had been dropped, Japan offered to surrender just with the condition that the Emperor retain complete sovereignty as the ruler of Japan, but we of course did not let them get away with that. They were about a week away from getting nuked again when they finally accepted our terms without condition.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2004 02:46 am
Re: Your discussion is beside the point
lodp wrote:
That the atomic bombing of the two cities, killing some 300.000 people, constitutes a war crime is so obvious it's hard even to discuss.


150,000 - 220,000 people (and 20,000 of them were soldiers).


lodp wrote:
We know that the direct military effect was minor. The target wasn't military objects but civilians. The number of civilian casulties was responsible for the effect the action had.


Actually there were significant military objectives destroyed by the bombs.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2004 02:50 am
dagmaraka wrote:
Apologies if that was mentioned before - haven't had time to read posts from before this page... but has anyone seen The Fog of War - the documentary with Robert McNamara?


I haven't seen it, but I've seen commentary on it that leads me to believe that it claims ridiculously high numbers of civilians killed by our bombing reads.

We certainly killed hundreds of thousands of civilians between our conventional and nuclear bombing of Japan, but I'm under the impression that he wrongly makes the number much higher than that.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2004 02:58 am
jacko73 wrote:
Bombing Nagasaki was a war crime. America's display of power to the Russians cost hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilian lives. Anyone who knows anything about the war undertstands that the Americans had already won the battle in the pacific and did not need to drop the atomic bomb. In this sense it is juistifiable to blame both Russia and America for the amount of nuclear arms in the present day


It was a display of power to the Japanese, not the Soviets.

And the understanding that we didn't need to drop the bomb was easy from hindsight. It was not so easy when we didn't have the benefit of hindsight.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2004 03:09 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
And they ensured Japan's quick surrender. But it is interesting that Japan was already putting out peace feelers through the Swiss Embassy, the sticking point being the status of the Emperor. The Americans insisted on unconditional surrender, but in practice allowed Hirohito to remain as a constitutional monarch (something the Japanese might have settled for).


The sticking point was the fact that Japan's embassy in Switzerland was acting on their own without government approval, and was even rebuked by the Japanese government for making those peace feelers.

Japan did not fall back to "only demanding a guarantee for their Emperor" until August 10, after Nagasaki.



Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
There was also the question of targets. Its no use dropping the world's first nuclear weapon on a city already extensively damaged by conventional bombing. (By 1945 there was becoming a shortage of such cities in Japan).


The target cities were chosen relatively early in the bombing campaign and were spared from being hit by conventional bombers thereafter.



Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
I'm not saying the nuclear bombings were a war crime. But I do contend that they were an experiment to determine the nature of nuclear warfare, and that their importance as a factor in bringing the Pacific war to an end has been exaggerated to disguise that ugly fact.


We did take advantage of the bombings to make an experiment of it. But the motive for the bombings was to make Japan accept our terms.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2004 03:30 am
Craven de Kere wrote:
428 out of 4,863 monitored cancer deaths are attributed to the radiation exposure. This is only from the high exposure level of the select group that this organization monitors and the deaths are expected to continue to come in because 25% of the radiation related cancer deaths occured within the latter 1986 and 1990.


They have newer figures if you go here:

http://www.rerf.or.jp/eigo/titles/lsstitle.htm

Report 13 says: "We estimate that about 440 (5%) of the solid cancer deaths and 250 (0.8%) of the noncancer deaths were associated with the radiation exposure."


Also, these figures should be doubled because "The population studied by RERF probably includes about 50% of the proximally exposed survivors" (from question 8 of their FAQ):

http://www.rerf.or.jp/eigo/faqs/faqse.htm
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2004 03:41 am
Brandon9000 wrote:
I am never in favor of deliberately attacking civilians. I think it would have been better, if possible, to have used the bombs against military targets.

However, on a purely formal note, in order for something to be a war crime, it must violate a treaty to which the country in question is signatory at the time the act is committed. Otherwise it isn't a war crime, by definition. It would be helpful if someone could cite the specific treaty and quote the specific portion which this violated. I am not saying that there is no such thing, I simply don't know.


Customary Law (sort of an international version of common law) would apply.

http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/iwpList133/32AEA038821EA35EC1256B66005A747C
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2004 03:52 am
Hans_Goring wrote:
sure they deserved revenge for pearl harbour but the japanese didn't vaporize close to 200,000 civilians.


I think there are 10 million dead Asian civilians who would object to that characterization (if they were alive to do so).


Hans_Goring wrote:
They did it to the germans to (eg Dresden)


They who? The British?


Hans_Goring wrote:
they raped pillaged and killed innocent german people,


They who? The Soviets?
0 Replies
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2004 05:56 pm
Oralloy, welcome to the forum! It's a real pleasure to read your posts and to hear a voice of logic, reason and good information. The nuclear issue, unfortunately, is one which leads people to make comments that are purely irrational, illogical knee-jerk reactions.
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