DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 03:30 pm
@firefly,
I think you ought to direct your questions to Hawkeye.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 03:31 pm
@DrewDad,
They really were directed to Hawkeye. Sorry if that wasn't clearer.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 03:31 pm
@firefly,
I think that, while I don't agree with most of Hawk's rhetoric re: women and men, that most modern men would agree that large parts of the traditional male role have simply vanished as time and society have progressed, and that there is a void where they used to be. Nothing in modern life fills that void other than sporting competition of some sort, and that for the most part vicariously.

They made a great movie about it a few years back - Fight Club.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 03:33 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Could it be that the games are feeding an archaic image of "masculinity" that no longer fits in with reality in 2010? Cultures change, gender roles change and expand
Gender roles neither need to expand, nor is it a given that them expanding is a good thing. There is a whole lot of gender confusion though, as well as questioning what makes a good man and what is masculinity. We have touched on this several times in this thread, and others. Women have been yelling their demands for men for some time, and I think that a lot of men have realized that what women say on the subject is often not what works with the women in their life, have come to the conclusion that either women don't know what they want or else they are not honest about it. Considering how much the old ways are condemned by women, and how poorly doing what women say they want works, I think a lot of men are stuck trying to figure this **** out.

Edit: and it has to work for men as well, a good deal of what women say they want goes against how men are wired. We need to be taken as who we are as a starting point. Women owe us that much respect.
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 03:33 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
Somehow you seem to have less hours in your day than I do, which is odd. Then again I have several factors which I've planned in my life to increase my amount of fun time - such as a job I can walk to, almost no commute.

It might be because you don't have a four bedroom house to clean and two kids to take care of...when I say 'do laundry' I'm doing it for a family and I hang mine out to dry- I don't use a dryer.
When I say 'cook supper' I'm cooking for a family and I'm also the one who shops for the food...
When I say 'wash the dishes' I'm not washing two plates and two glasses and silverware for two - and I don't use a dishwasher.
Yeah - I used to have a lot more time in my day before I had kids too. I sleep about seven hours too - and I also read. I don't watch tv - in fact hardly ever.

You guys are so arrogant...wait till you have a baby and then come back and tell me how great you are at organizing your time. And I really would be curious to hear if a child might be enough to pull you back into reality - as in - would your reality once again become as interesting as your virtual world - or not?
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 03:42 pm
@aidan,
aidan wrote:

Quote:
Somehow you seem to have less hours in your day than I do, which is odd. Then again I have several factors which I've planned in my life to increase my amount of fun time - such as a job I can walk to, almost no commute.

It might be because you don't have a four bedroom house to clean and two kids to take care of...when I say 'do laundry' I'm doing it for a family and I hang mine out to dry- I don't use a dryer.
When I say 'cook supper' I'm cooking for a family and I'm also the one who shops for the food...
When I say 'wash the dishes' I'm not washing two plates and two glasses and silverware for two - and I don't use a dishwasher.
Yeah - I used to have a lot more time in my day before I had kids too. I sleep about seven hours too - and I also read. I don't watch tv - in fact hardly ever.


Where is your mate, while all this is going on? The duties you talk about above are ones my wife and I split.

We don't have a dishwasher either, or a washer/dryer - I have to load my clothes up in my bicycle trailer and bike to the laundromat, b/c we don't have a car, either. Things are rough all over, aren't they?

I can't speak for the rigors of having kids, because I don't have any. Hardly my fault - and yes, I assume I'll have less free time once I have them. Such is life.

Quote:
You guys are so arrogant...wait till you have a baby and then come back and tell me how great you are at organizing your time. And I really would be curious to hear if a child might be enough to pull you back into reality - as in - would your reality once again become as interesting as your virtual world - or not?


Probably not. As I said before - you have no experience with what I'm talking about, and don't understand. You feel perfectly willing to look down upon those who do enjoy these things, though, as if they were childish or inferior to the life you've chosen. You might want to re-examine this position.

As for arrogance, I believe that is usually defined as:

"an attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or in presumptuous claims or assumptions"

You may look at my words that way if you wish - but nothing I said was false, or even boastful. I was simply explaining to you that I have not encountered any difficulty fitting my leisure activities in. There is ample time in the day. Of course, a large part of this is due to pre-planning on my part. Is that arrogance, that one has taken steps to make their life easier? And is enjoying their life as a result? I think not.

Cycloptichorn
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 03:48 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Sad, very sad. You can't replace the touch, the smell, the feel and actually being there.
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 03:51 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I'm separated. I married a workaholic - although I will give him credit for always putting his kids ahead of his leisure time activities (which he's never really taken time for - even for himself).
By that I mean he coached my son's basketball and was a cubscout leader, took my daughter to her track meets, etc. etc, if he wasn't working..
He'd never have had time to play video games...in fact his work has always been his affirmation - and while it's made marriage difficult - I respect his dedication and his passion for his work.

I'm not complaining about my life or my kids. I'm actually very happy. I'm just explaining to you why I don't have as much free time as you do - it's not that I'm not a good organizer - I am. I guess as you said I have a few more responsibilities - but I certainly wouldn't trade them for the world - or more time to play video games.

In fact, I can't say anything beyond I'm glad we're both happy with our lives.
It sounded arrogant to me when you expressed that I had less time in my day than you had in yours - as if you were better at prioritizing or organizing.
Maybe you didn't mean it to sound that way - sorry if I misinterpreted.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 03:56 pm
@Linkat,
Linkat wrote:

Sad, very sad. You can't replace the touch, the smell, the feel and actually being there.


Soon, you will be able to. We can already make simulations which are extremely close to looking and sounding real. Other senses will follow, as we better understand the brain and how to connect it to a computer. And then what will the difference be?

Cycloptichorn
Mame
 
  2  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 04:26 pm
@Linkat,
Linkat wrote:

I agree most men do enjoy competition - I have no problem with that - many women also enjoy - but the fake virtual world stuff - most men think it is weird. I also don't have a problem with men, boys or whoever engaging in the virtual world stuff. It is when you become obsessed with it and addicted.


Linkat, many, many women (and some men) the world over are hooked on soap operas; if that isn't virtual world stuff, I don't know what is. Likely, the scenarios in soap operas are less likely to occur than what goes on in these video games. I haven't tried one because I suspect I'd be hooked, like I was hooked on soap operas 30 yrs ago (Coronation St. anyone?).

We really can't say yea or nay or anything else about it until we've given it an honest try. And by the way, I don't know anyone who does play them. I don't see much difference, though, in someone (who I do know) playing bridge 5x a week, or someone working out to music (hello? virtual?) 5 x a week to someone spending some time on video games or watching tv. What's the diff? How many hours do people spend watching tv, esp these reality shows? Oodles of hours and whole families do it together - are they debating or even conversing about the various aspects? Really, which is more retarded - watching Bachelor or playing a video game? Just saying, we can't judge until we've tried it.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  3  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 04:48 pm
@hawkeye10,
Why would you even spend time wondering what makes for a good man, or what "masculinity" is? Why do you have to conceptualize yourself in terms of gender role? What is the difference between a good man and a good person?

I think the last thing I wonder about is my "femininity"? I grew up at a time with rather restrictive notions of "femininity" and "lady like" behavior--only wear skirts, never swear, defer to the man, be careful not to be too assertive, never be aggressive, be demure, act helpless, etc. What's made a change for me, and loads of other women, is to ditch those cultural shackles. And definitions of "masculinity" are just as confining, and just as out of touch with contemporary reality as those notions of "femininity".

Apart from these cultural gender role labels, there are essential differences between men and women. No fusion of gender roles, or expansion of gender roles is really going to confuse our essential natures or blur those differences. Women are as female now as they were in the 1950's or the 1750's. Men are just as male now as they ever were in Ancient Rome.

What's changed, is that life has become easier and more comfortable for all of us. We have machines that do the work we once did. The routines of daily life and gender assigned tasks have changed. Life makes fewer physical demands on most of us, and presents fewer physical challenges for us. There is more monotony and less that is unknown and unpredictable in everyday life. We have more free time. And, most of all, we are living longer.

Men might suffer more from this more sedentary life. They no longer venture forth to hunt, or even to expand the frontiers, but instead commute to sit in a tiny cubicle somewhere or go to work at a job dominated more by repetition than excitement. Not much is required of them in terms of daring. No opportunity to run into that phone booth and don the red cape of Superman--even the phone booth is rapidly disappearing. Men haven't been displaced by women, or been"feminized", the world has simply changed around them, and some of the changes have been relatively rapid. The "little woman", freshly made up and coiffed, who once greeted their return home with a pitcher of martinis and an elaborate dinner, now returns home after her own day in the office, wishing she had one of those old fashioned wives to greet her at the door and have everything on the home front organized and ready and waiting. The notion of the man "ruling the roost" has slowly morphed into a partnership, and marriages seem to be dissolving at almost the same rate they are being formed. This isn't the same life, or the same reality men once enjoyed, even in fairly recent memory. I can't blame you guys for wanting to play your video games to get some of you feelings of mojo back.

But to view these changes with bitterness, and to see woman as emasculators, is really distorted, and just plain wrong. Women's lives have changed along with yours. We've relieved you of the burden of being the sole breadwinner by taking on additional burdens of our own. Our lives are busier and more pressured than they were when we spent our days at home. We have needs too, and we are less afraid to assert them now. What we want shouldn't be all that confusing to you. Try asking us. Try listening to what we say. Try collaborating. It really isn't power we want. It's partnership. We really do want you men to be happy too. Is that so hard to understand or accept?
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 04:50 pm
@aidan,
aidan wrote:
How do you have time to work eight hours a day, play these games - AND exercise?

I work 12 hours a day. I budget time for sleep, and exercise. I don't play daily, but I will play games. I work through the middle of the night often, so I have to prepare meals in advance before work because I won't be able to get food at 1:00 AM.

I don't really have the time, but I also don't really play that often anymore. If I do, it's for maybe 30 minutes when I get home at 7:15 AM. My apartment is empty, and I usually need something enjoyable to take my mind off the nightmare that traffic here. I'll play for 30-40 minutes perhaps.

A
R
T
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 04:53 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
- whatever happened to playing sports
it is now very difficult for men to get together in real life with out women butting in. A lot of women do like to hang out with men, and men no longer feel like they have the right to ask the women to leave, or to otherwise make them feel unwelcome in the attempt to encourage them to leave..

What crazy mental prison do you live in? I'd not describe the lives of men in in this way. It's not hard to have time with just men.

hawkeye10 wrote:

However, since few women want to go online and blow **** up this is one last place for men to congregate, undisturbed by women and their demands to shift to focus towards the feminine.

Blowing **** up in the feminine way.

A
R
T
Izzie
 
  3  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 05:14 pm
@failures art,
hawkeye10 wrote:

it is now very difficult for men to get together in real life with out women butting in. A lot of women do like to hang out with men, and men no longer feel like they have the right to ask the women to leave, or to otherwise make them feel unwelcome in the attempt to encourage them to leave..


Seriously, you talk the biggest load of pants HE. For goodness sake, for someone whose stance is about "professional" victims...and trying to lose the "victim mentality" - you must surely be the greatest victim with all the claptrap your regurgitate. What a load of complete and utter bollocks.
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  2  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 05:36 pm
The thread has been conversation. Here is a summary of what I've taken away so far.

OP believes that young men are doing poorly and that women are taking roles that make men more and more socially irrelevant. Tick tock goes the clock, and we need to do something soon.

People comment that they doesn't really agree men are doing poorly, and that women doing better than they have in the past is not evidence of men doing poorly.

Video games and porn are offered up as reasons why men might be doing poorly.

Discussion shifts from IF men are doing poorly to if porn and video games are inherently male.

Arguments for why video game don't appeal to women are made.

Statistics are presented that demonstrate video games do appeal to women.

A bit of anything-you-can-do-I-can-do-better breaks out over the daily budgeting of time. the thread remains afloat.

So what are we talking about?'

Video games and porn? If men are not doing poorly, I don't see the point in tracking down the origin of their non-issue.

I think we've shifted over to a topic on media-gender. I think we've entered a conversation on if electronic gaming affects men and women differently. I agree that these products have found more male users traditionally, but I'm not going to agree that video gaming is inherently a male activity, nor that the female user base will not grow. I believe that once the female creation of games increases, the female digestion of electronic media will increase as well. When that increase comes, any detrimental effects that exist will be shown to effect both genders.

A
R
T




0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 05:37 pm
@failures art,
Quote:
It's not hard to have time with just men
do you have any examples?

I'll start with a few of mine
Mens only clubs are gone, men only golf is gone, men sitting at a bar unbothered by women is gone, Women now routinely go to strip clubs...
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 05:40 pm
@hawkeye10,
The very presence of women in those venues is enough to ruin the experience for you?

That's a sad commentary on you, not a sad commentary on the state of society.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 05:44 pm
@DrewDad,
Quote:

The very presence of women in those venues is enough to ruin the experience for you?
No, the problem is that women often want to join the group, hang out, They see you and come over and get all chatty, sit down and never go away.....and then you have your sad sack men who get a wild hair and decide on their own to bring their woman to a man get together. Now in order to get in front of that there needs to be a pre agreement where the rules are clear...dont ******* bring your woman.

sometimes would be fine, but it is constant. The only way to get man time is to be an asshole towards women, and who wants to do that?
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 05:48 pm
@hawkeye10,
I'm still baffled as to why women need to be excluded from your little gatherings in order for you to enjoy them.

If your "sad-sack" friends invite their wimmins, why don't you just not invite the sad sacks?

This isn't a general gender issue. It's a "Hawkeye has issues" issue.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 05:50 pm
@hawkeye10,
Uh, why is it a problem if the women are hanging out? This is the part that none of us seem to be able to figure out.

You have an extremely odd view of the relations between sexes...

Cycloptichorn
 

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