failures art
 
  2  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 08:09 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
None of my challenges or successes at my work have anything to do with my gender. Being a man isn't stigmatizing me as inferior.
the question is not about you, it is about men in general....so what you are saying is that since the problem (if it is real ) in your opinion does not impact your life you dont care. Which is fine, but why do you keep posting stuff that has nothing to do with the thread topic and when you admit that you dont care about the thread topic? Do you have WAY too much time on your hands?

I'm a man, so this affects me. I reject the idea that we are in any disadvantage. I am posting on topic. I'm posting about my experience in the workplace as a man. That is relevant, especial when contrasted with the idea being put forth in the OP.

The sky is not falling, and if men want a place in the workplace and society with pride, the answer is not pushing back or "reinventing" anything, it is to do what all people already know: Work hard and contribute. As long as anyone, male or female, does that, they will have a place in the society I see us marching towards.

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hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 08:20 pm
@failures art,
Quote:
I'm a man, so this affects me. I reject the idea that we are in any disadvantage.
The reason for the long term trending of women doing better and men worse does need an answer. Guy Garcia's take in his 2008 work "the decline of men" is that men are slacking, the old models of masculinity do not work, and so men need to invent a new model. I found that argument to be compelling.

EDIT: I also take note when my young adult daughters talk about a lot of men they meet being needy whinny messes that they dont want to have anything to do with. The "men are slackers" motif has grown on me lately.
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 09:18 pm
From the title, I thought this thread would be about how fewer male babies are being born.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 09:26 pm
@hawkeye10,
It sounds to me like you're making this into a false dichotomy.

It's not a choice between men being macho and men being needy, whiny messes.

It is quite possible to be a confident, self-sufficient, adult human being regardless of one's gender.
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 09:36 pm
@Joe Nation,
Quote:
Men have been unnecessary to the process of procreation for some time now. More than forty years have passed since the process of stimulating a human egg into the first phase of cellular replication was successfully accomplished.

All (repeat) all products of this stimulation will be female.

No problem. Need more humans?? stimulate some more eggs.


Or, we can make our own sperm.

Quote:

Will science render men unnecessary?
By Brian Alexander
MSNBC contributor

Recently a team of scientists announced they had made artificial sperm from human bone marrow, and media reports abounded with the dire news that my goodfellas (and by extension, me) had been rendered unnecessary.
If a woman chose to do so, speculated tabloid journalists, she could make sperm from her own bone marrow, fertilize another woman’s egg — and voila!


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_MIuYE-a5tf0/RoY9FNydC8I/AAAAAAAAACE/IFven1tBys4/s320/woman.jpg
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 09:38 pm
@DrewDad,
Quote:
It is quite possible to be a confident, self-sufficient, adult human being regardless of one's gender.
if you think of yourself as a man but you don't know what man is because concepts of masculinity have been under a great amount of change and attack from the feminists, then it is very difficult to be a confident, self-sufficient man.

What Garcia is saying that Men need to take ownership of being men again, which will require refusing to be lead around by the dick by women, who while they claim that they want men that they can control in actuality have no use for such men.

Edit: David Deida "finding God through sex" has been more or less doing the same riff about how Men need to step up and start being men again for well over a decade.
failures art
 
  2  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 09:57 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
The reason for the long term trending of women doing better and men worse does need an answer.

You speak as if this answer is so elusive. Women have done well because of hard work. If men have done less well, perhaps it is because the era of entitlement is evaporating.

It doesn't mean that we are headed towards men struggling. If you work hard and contribute, it should not matter.

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hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 10:56 pm
@failures art,
Quote:
If men have done less well, perhaps it is because the era of entitlement is evaporating.
that clearly does not explain it, because it does not for instance explain why males are not applying themselves to education. There is no doubt but that education is a pathway to success, but increasingly men are not trying. Universities have been talking for 20 years about their difficulty in getting enough men to apply so that they could get the mix that they wanted in the student body, and the problem has steadily gotten worse. Males could successfully navigate HS and put in an application to collage as well as women can, but dont. Your explanation fails, something else is going on.
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2010 12:07 am
@hawkeye10,
What is going on is that trade skill jobs are being replaced by machines. You forget that it's not just how many men who enroll in college, but that college enrollment is significantly higher now than any point in history. In total, MORE men are enrolling, it's simply that their number isn't the majority of applicants. I worked for campus housing for 5 years, and in those five year attended 4 national conferences and 3 regional ones. I've met people representing campus administrations all over the USA. Enrollment is super high. Schools can hardly meet the housing demand of the people coming in.

The amount of men going to college has increased, just not as much as the increase in women. You're reading that women are dominating colleges as a symptom that fewer men are attending. This simply is not true.

If you'd like to talk about the decline of trade skill jobs and what a degree will equip a person to do in the modern day work environment, that is another topic all together.

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hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2010 01:18 am
@failures art,
for anyone who wants to learn more on the subject:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/09/education/09college.html

which contains

Quote:
In dozens of interviews on three campuses — Dickinson College; American University; and the University of North Carolina, Greensboro — male and female students alike agreed that the slackers in their midst were mostly male, and that the fireballs were mostly female.

Almost all speculated that it had something to do with the women's movement.

"The roles have changed a lot," said Travis Rothway, a 23-year-old junior at American University, a private school where only 36 percent of last year's freshmen were male. "Men have always been the dominant figure, providing for the household, but now women have broken out of their domestic roles in society. I don't think guys' willingness to work and succeed has changed, it's more that the women have stepped up."

firefly
 
  2  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2010 01:38 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
that clearly does not explain it, because it does not for instance explain why males are not applying themselves to education. There is no doubt but that education is a pathway to success, but increasingly men are not trying. Universities have been talking for 20 years about their difficulty in getting enough men to apply so that they could get the mix that they wanted in the student body, and the problem has steadily gotten worse. Males could successfully navigate HS and put in an application to collage as well as women can, but dont.


That's a slight exaggeration of the problem. Men are still going to college. But, when they get there, they may spend more of their free time playing video games, or tracking fantasy football league scores, while the women are hitting the books and studying hard. The women tend to be more focused and self disciplined. They are also more goal oriented long range, in terms of future careers, and have a better idea what career they want. And that's also why they've been going on to graduate schools in larger numbers.

Quote:

We’ve all heard about the collegiate gender gap. But the implications of that gap have not yet been fully digested. Women now earn 60 percent of master’s degrees, about half of all law and medical degrees, and 42 percent of all M.B.A.s. Most important, women earn almost 60 percent of all bachelor’s degrees—the minimum requirement, in most cases, for an affluent life. In a stark reversal since the 1970s, men are now more likely than women to hold only a high-school diploma. “One would think that if men were acting in a rational way, they would be getting the education they need to get along out there,” says Tom Mortenson, a senior scholar at the Pell Institute for the Study of Opportunity in Higher Education. “But they are just failing to adapt.”
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/07/the-end-of-men/8135/


So, why aren't men acting in a more rational way, and taking education more seriously, and putting more effort into it? Why are they failing to adapt to reality?

Is it because they no longer anticipate being the main breadwinners in the family, so they have no incentive to succeed? Because they are suffering from the effects of losing their traditional gender role as head of the family?

Oh dear, that would make them victims of the changing culture. Even worse, victims, of a labor marketplace culture that is increasingly working in the favor of women. VICTIMS, Hawkeye, that word you detest. You get livid when groups play the victim card.

Are you backing yourself into a corner with your views that men are becoming marginalized, and (shudder) victimized? And, because women have pulled the rug out from under these poor benighted victims, we have to worry they will be loveless, sexless, family-less, and might turn to violence and burn down cities. Rolling Eyes

Sure, the times are changing. Women are out of the home and in the workforce. And they are succeeding fairly well, except for lingering pay inequities, and that rigid glass ceiling blocking the way to the top echelons of corporate power. But that shouldn't stop the men from stepping along beside them, should it? There are no educational or employment obstacles or barriers in their way, are they?

I think failures art has made some good points.

failures art said:
Quote:
If men have done less well, perhaps it is because the era of entitlement is evaporating


Maybe men have coasted along on their sense of entitlement for far too long. They had their traditional masculine roles, and masculine prerogatives, handed to them, and obediently turned over to them by the women. And now that gravy train of automatic entitlement may be drying up. Maybe now they'll have to start working really hard to gain all that respect and status. Maybe they'll have to settle for equal footing rather than being the one in charge. Maybe they'll have to get their satisfactions from something other than having power.

Unless there is some permanent defect on the Y chromosome that would prevent them from adapting, I think they'll figure it out. Your dire predictions about The End of Men (thunder clap in background), are unlikely to happen. In fact, many men have been making these adaptations in gender-role for decades now. They've been sharing many more tasks with the women in their lives, the sorts of things she did before she went to work. They consider their wife's career as important as their own, and they still want to succeed on their own too. And they haven't been afraid to get in touch with the more feminine, emotional side of their nature either, while still remaining decidedly masculine. And those are the ones the women still love, and still love to marry. These guys won't be wandering the streets, lovelorn and disgruntled. And their sons, and grandsons won't either, if they adapt, and don't act like either victims or macho losers.

But, for starters, they've got to buckle down and start working hard...in school. And go after their careers with the same determination and drive that the women are now showing. They've got to start growing up a little faster and put down that video game controller and focus on real life challenges. The days of easy entitlement are over. They are going to have to prove themselves worthy of that accomplished woman if they want her in their life.

hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2010 02:01 am
@firefly,
Quote:
That's a slight exaggeration of the problem. Men are still going to college. But, when they get there, they may spend more of their free time playing video games, or tracking fantasy football league scores, while the women are hitting the books and studying hard
Men are still going and although the percentage of the class that is female is greater than for male the numbers would be a lot more skewed if collages did not work so hard to get the population the way they want it. The percentage of men who apply who get accepted is much greater than for women, the men are on average less ready for collage the day they walk in the door, so is should be no surprise that it follows that the women do much better when there.

Quote:
So, why aren't men acting in a more rational way, and taking education more seriously, and putting more effort into it? Why are they failing to adapt to reality?
that is the $1000 question, and we dont know the answer. Clearly they are not expecting to get farming jobs or good factory jobs, so it would seem that they are not oriented towards work and economic success at all.

Quote:
Unless there is some permanent defect on the Y chromosome that would prevent them from adapting, I think they'll figure it out.
Lower class black men have not figured it out in 4 decades.....I lack your confidence

Quote:
They are going to have to prove themselves worthy of that accomplished woman if they want her in their life
Black men get along because they can find enough women to **** that the single life is tolerable( a high percentage of of the men being in jail at any one time sure helps) , they are not about to go hat in hand to the women and suck up all the indignities the the women tend to throw their way trying to form relationships with women. I dont see any reason it will not go this way for men in general. Neither the men nor the women are willing to do what it would take to heal the rift, so it continues. We have seen more than enough insults from women towards men here at a2k in this thread to warrant concern that this is not just a black thing.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2010 02:12 am
@failures art,
Quote:
The amount of men going to college has increased, just not as much as the increase in women. You're reading that women are dominating colleges as a symptom that fewer men are attending. This simply is not true.


I think that Hawkeye is overlooking some crucial differences between different groups of men, including differences in social class. The points he has been making apply, I think, mainly to the working class, or blue collar class. As you point out, trade skill jobs are being replaced by machines. Factory and union jobs have been lost due to changing economic factors. The construction industry has been hard hit by the current recession. The jobs that didn't require a lot of formal education are the ones that are harder to come by.

While women in the working and blue collar classes have been using education, and job training, as a way of moving upward, the men in those groups appear to be having a harder time doing the same thing. In that regard, Hawkeye's analogy to the Black working class makes a little more sense, although I see it as a social class problem rather than a racial one. If the women in the lower classes advance upward economically, the men who remain behind do become somewhat less desirable as marital partners. Then you get a real gender divide. I'm not sure that there is a huge gender gap like that in the middle class, and the gender gap is almost non-existent in the upper classes.

Hawkeye's mistake is in assuming that what is going on in the lower classes, with men being marginalized, is going to happen at all levels of society. I really don't see that happening.

And, since these are the views you are presenting in this thread, Hawkeye, even if you are getting them from the opinions of "experts", I think you do have to claim them as your own. If these are not your views, then you should make that very clear, and state what what your own views are.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2010 02:23 am
@firefly,
Quote:
I think that Hawkeye is overlooking some crucial differences between different groups of men, including differences in social class. The points he has been making apply, I think, mainly to the working class, or blue collar class.
I dont have a stat handy, but what I have seen indicates that it is only the wealthy boys who are still doing OK, the middle class boys are in near as bad shape as the lower class boys. when it comes to men, a lot of the middle class men are still sitting around the house on long term unemployment benefits. They are unlikely to ever find work again, and at some point the checks will stop coming. This situation is unresolved.

Quote:
And, since these are the views you are presenting in this thread, Hawkeye, even if you are getting them from the opinions of "experts", I think you do have to claim them as your own. If these are not your views, then you should make that very clear, and state what what your own views are.
Unless I state something as my view dont assume that it is. It might be, but it might also be that I am presenting an argument that has not been considered yet so that we as a group have the best chance at arriving at the truth.
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2010 02:26 am
@Joe Nation,
Quote:
(I would like to say on behalf of men everywhere, our sincere thanks to Aidan for saying that vibrator climaxes are not necessarily better than penile stimulated ones.) Joe(I love it when you lie to me.)Nation


It's not a lie. Some womens' orgasms aren't only about plugs in sockets if you get what I mean.

But I'd also rather munch doritos and drink beer - even with a game playing in the background- especially if it's baseball or basketball - than drink fruity **** with umbrellas in it and hang out with frowsy-haired women with sagging breasts talking about their upcoming hysterectomies...you know?

And I don't think that means I should have been a man - I think that means I'm perfectly suited to being a heterosexual woman- thank god!
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2010 02:29 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
The reason for the long term trending of women doing better and men worse does need an answer.

It's those damn video games and the advent of internet porn.

Think about the timing of this trend and who specifically has fallen into the trap of allowing themselves to be distracted from other pursuits or time well spent by this stuff?
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2010 02:30 am
@hawkeye10,
From your article...
Quote:
"I don't think guys' willingness to work and succeed has changed, it's more that the women have stepped up."


Did you gloss this over? This is the point you need to grasp.

My sister attends AU, and I'm on her campus almost weekly. It is a predominantly female campus. Most people there are very driven. It's pretty competitive. I've met very few slackers of either gender. Now, the fact that my sister is one of these darn females going off to college and succeeding, is not evidence that men aren't.

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hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2010 02:35 am
@failures art,
Quote:
Did you gloss this over? This is the point you need to grasp
No I did not gloss it over, and it is not an explanation. That would explain parity, it does not explain men rapidly falling behind.

Aidan might have been speaking in jest, but porn and video games is a much more plausible explanation than yours is.
Sglass
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2010 02:35 am
Women are still consistently underpaid for the same job done by a man. The boss man is saving money by hiring a women with the same credentials to do the job, it's not who is better, but who is the cheapist.
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2010 02:37 am
@hawkeye10,
I wasn't speaking in jest - I'm dead serious.
0 Replies
 
 

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