The End of Men

@aidan,

I'll not say that video games don't effect a person, but I'm not going to agree that video games are only going to appeal to men/males. I don't doubt that you see what you see in young boys, but I'm saying you'll see it young girls as well if the market changes.

Also, what makes you think Facebook is primarily a female thing?

Perhaps a difference in us is that I don't see such a divorce between the genders as you do. I think most of the separation we observe is from cultural factors, not innate chromosomal ones. Cultures change. If video games and porn have appealed to men, and not women, should we not examine the cultural stigmas that might influence this?

A
R
T

2 Replies

@failures art,

In the case of female non-interest in porn, I don't think a possible cultural stigma is playing a significant role. We've had almost 50 years since the women's liberation movement (and the advent of oral contraceptives) helped to bring about a significant change in women's sexual behaviors and attitudes. That's a long time. If females had an interest in porn, it would have begun to surface by now.

Visual stimulation really doesn't do for most women what it does for men.I feel no cultural stigma, at all, about viewing porn, or looking at male nudity, but it absolutely does not affect me in an arousing manner. But George Clooney, fully dressed, in the context of a love story, caressing a woman's hair, stroking her cheek, looking deeply into her eyes, and giving her a passionate kiss, can set my heart going a'flutter. That's why erotica works for women where porn might not. I think women need some context they can relate to. Just viewing the sex act, in no meaningful context, doesn't do it.

I think if there was a cultural stigma on viewing male nudity, it came, and comes, from men. While women might object to being viewed as sexual objects, I think men may actually object to it even more. Great art has some, but not much, full frontal male nudity. Granted, most of the artists have been male, but they did not choose to glorify the male body or the male genitalia. Even now, in mainstream movies which have full female frontal nudity, the male genitalia is rarely shown even if there is a nude man in the scene. They show his backside, or they show him from the front, but with his genitalia partially obscured. I think this is partly because men are sensitive about penis size. I remember listening to an interview with an actor who had to do a nude scene where he emerged from a cold lake. He said he felt very self conscious about the scene because the cold water made his penis even smaller. And recently I did see a movie which did have full frontal male nudity (I forget which movie) and it was startling because you really don't see it that often. It was startling, but not arousing. I here-tell that men even check out other men at urinals as sources of comparison to themselves. So I have a hard time believing that men would even want to see women spending lots of time viewing photos of well endowed men.

If a cultural stigma is operating, we certainly should see it disappear over the next 25 years or so. But I really think this is more biological than cultural with most women.

When women talk to each other about what they like in a man, they really don't mention his genitalia. Size seems to matter more to men than to their partners. And women do not sit around describing or discussing male genitalia. Why would they want to sit around looking at pictures of it?

2 Replies

@firefly,

I have a hard time fitting this with many women I know who DO like porn, and images of male nudity. This is why I'm wondering if this is somewhat generational in terms of culture. As for oral contraceptives and the crossroads with sexual stigmas, certainly I don't have to point out that cultural stigmas do exist specifically about oral contraceptives and that these stigmas have impaired many women from getting access to birth control. Similarly, we have an HPV vaccine that could improve the lives of so many women, but people idiotically think it's going to green light a young girl to have sex with everyone she encounters. The subtext of most attacks against sexual heath measures usually is the same: If you're taking proactive action to have a healthy sex life, you're a slut.

Similarly, I suspect a woman might associate porn with being dirty, and given all the social/cultural baggage she already has to deal with, it might not be worth it when she can think about George Clooney in a suit (the man has charm...). It was an interesting blip on the cultural radar, but in the 1000's of porn titles that come out in a given year, one film became so popular, that it was being shown on a few campuses. That XXX film, directed by a woman. I read an article that I think splits the difference. The author, a woman, notes that porn doesn't really appeal to her, but sees how this porn is different, and that difference gathers interest.

Enough on porn though, and back to education and careers, I'm in the engineering field, and most of my college male classmates (including myself) were (and are) avid video game players. We're in our late 20's now, and all have advanced degrees and jobs. My good friend Jon, play games daily, has a girlfriend, teaches at a university, is working on his doctorate, and is physically fit. I can't see how video games have impaired him. I'd also not categorize him as a casual player. He'd be in the top 5 percentile I'd guess, the exact type of person who would if ever, have a problem.

I don't see these topics as being related to the performance of men, or of people in general. If aidan is right, Jon shouldn't be as successful as he is--Neither should I.

I don't see men failing right now, and so I have a hard time with both hawkeye's chicken littling or aidan's theory in response. I'd say that if we really want to examine educational performance (of all students), we should be examining schools for their classroom size, and cafeteria diet.

A
R
T

2 Replies

@firefly,

Quote:

I think if there was a cultural stigma on viewing male nudity, it came, and comes, from men.

Can I hire you to be my personal philosopher? Your observations are so bang on, you should be writing a column for the NYT.

Your words, quoted above, remind me of the fact that we see plenty of fully nude women in the movies but we seldom see the precious penis.

1 Reply

@failures art,

I suspect your friend Jon has his life in balance. He doesn't sound like my son, who is probably the same age, who plays WOW and doesn't do anything else.

1 Reply

@plainoldme,

plainoldme wrote:

Quote:
I think if there was a cultural stigma on viewing male nudity, it came, and comes, from men.

Can I hire you to be my personal philosopher? Your observations are so bang on, you should be writing a column for the NYT.

Your words, quoted above, remind me of the fact that we see plenty of fully nude women in the movies but we seldom see the precious penis.

You'd really like the documentary "This film no yet rated" which explores the ultra inconsistent film rating system in the USA.

A
R
T

0 Replies

@plainoldme,

plainoldme wrote:

I suspect your friend Jon has his life in balance. He doesn't sound like my son, who is probably the same age, who plays WOW and doesn't do anything else.

To help your son with this, I'd address the game, not gender. I think this is my point in its simplest form. Your son isn't being held captive by his maleness here.

A
R
T

0 Replies

I was in a conversation a few days with two women, one is Psychologist about my age, the other was her 22 year old niece who is just a couple of credits shy of a second college degree. I'll skip all the details, but in sum they both knew men who played video games at length and they were both of the opinion that such activity was juvenile and a huge HUGE time-suck, both of the time needed to study and succeed and of the time that could have been spent with either of them.

Didn't discuss porn with them, but I'll share this: every time a woman has suggested we watch some porn together, it seemed to me to be a way for her to help me get hot. (Talk about a waste of time!)(My jets seem never to cool.)

I remember one time where we were supposed to be watching "female porn" but it was all mostly clothed people giving backrubs and kissing ears and the like. There were some running through the woods wearing robes scenes that were nice.....
zzzzZZZZzzzz . Rolling Eyes

I spoiled everything by asking when the postman was going to arrive with his package.
==
One time-suck I've seen women engage in lately is Farmville on Facebook, maybe you'll start seeing co-eds coming in bleary eyed because they had to get up at 4AM to harvest their Cotton crop.

Joe(But not the above mentioned ladies)Nation

1 Reply

@failures art,

Quote:

I have a hard time fitting this with many women I know who DO like porn, and images of male nudity

Do they enjoy viewing this material on their own, rather than in the presence of a male partner? Do they view it on their own most of the time?

Do you know whether these women use this material to enhance their masturbatory fantasies?

I don't doubt there are women who like porn and who find it extremely arousing. I just don't think that's true of the majority of women.

Quote:

Similarly, I suspect a woman might associate porn with being dirty

No more than she would think sex, or the human body is dirty.

It also depends on what kind of porn you are talking about. Some porn is extremely degrading to women, with images of extreme bondage, or things women don't like, and it might turn off, or repel, many women. I don't know that most women are prudes. They might just not find porn appealing.

The sexual fantasy life of men and women may also differ. Porn does derive from fantasy. Fantasy life is less constricted by culture than any overt behavior would be (including the behavior of viewing porn). If women turn to things like Romance novels, for instance, rather than porn, it may be because the erotica of such material more closely matches the preferred sexual fantasy experiences of women. But your fantasies go on inside your head, where you can control them, you don't necessarily want to watch these fantasies being played out visually. Men may need the visual to stimulate the fantasy considerably more than women need or want it.

Quote:

certainly I don't have to point out that cultural stigmas do exist specifically about oral contraceptives and that these stigmas have impaired many women from getting access to birth control... If you're taking proactive action to have a healthy sex life, you're a slut.

Are you talking about adult women who are sexually active? The attitude you are talking about seems rather quaint in 2010. I remember hearing that sort of thing in the 1960's. What age female are you talking about? A teenager?

What adult woman in her right mind would not take measures to prevent an unwanted pregnancy? And oral contraceptives are more reliable than other measures. If she was that worried about being thought a slut, she wouldn't be having sex, or she'd limit the number of partners. Do you think women also avoid using diaphragms? A condom, while necessary to help protect against STDs, is not the best method of birth control if used alone. And there are men who give females a hard time when it comes to their using condoms. Some men won't use them at all. A smart adult woman chooses a method of birth control that she has some control over. That's why when oral contraceptives were introduced on the market, women suddenly became freer to have sex.

A women who would be afraid of being thought a slut, if she uses oral contraceptives, has hang ups or guilt about having sex. I don't think that's true of most women these days.

Aren't most video games males enjoy high action, high excitement, high level of stimulation? Isn't that what helps them to have an addictive effect on players? Isn't that more suited to the testosterone laden male? While some females might enjoy them too, wouldn't they really appeal more to men based on biology?

You could design games to appeal to more women, but they'd likely be different kinds of games. And they'd have to compete with the other things women enjoy doing in their free time--like communicating, in one form or another.

Are men going to learn to love shopping? Not all women love shopping, but many more women do than men.

Some differences may not be cultural. Men and women are not exactly the same. There are differences.

1 Reply

One woman's opinion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ej4Ru8KhW-A&feature=channel

Joe(was gonna be a night for a high score)Nation

0 Replies

@firefly,

firefly wrote:

Quote:
I have a hard time fitting this with many women I know who DO like porn, and images of male nudity

Do they enjoy viewing this material on their own, rather than in the presence of a male partner? Do they view it on their own most of the time?

In the examples I'm thinking of, yes and yes.

firefly wrote:

Do you know whether these women use this material to enhance their masturbatory fantasies?

That is what was implied.

firefly wrote:

I don't doubt there are women who like porn and who find it extremely arousing. I just don't think that's true of the majority of women.

I don't disagree.

firefly wrote:

Quote:
Similarly, I suspect a woman might associate porn with being dirty

No more than she would think sex, or the human body is dirty.

Enough people do think that those things are dirty that it's not out of bounds.

firefly wrote:

It also depends on what kind of porn you are talking about. Some porn is extremely degrading to women, with images of extreme bondage, or things women don't like, and it might turn off, or repel, many women. I don't know that most women are prudes. They might just not find porn appealing.

This is why I think the appeal might change as women start representing a larger part of the production and business element.

firefly wrote:

The sexual fantasy life of men and women may also differ. Porn does derive from fantasy. Fantasy life is less constricted by culture than any overt behavior would be (including the behavior of viewing porn). If women turn to things like Romance novels, for instance, rather than porn, it may be because the erotica of such material more closely matches the preferred sexual fantasy experiences of women. But your fantasies go on inside your head, where you can control them, you don't necessarily want to watch these fantasies being played out visually. Men may need the visual to stimulate the fantasy considerably more than women need or want it.

All I'm saying is that as women gain a greater element of control of the porn industry, you'll see many of the themes and elements of romance novels appear in visual media.

firefly wrote:

Quote:

certainly I don't have to point out that cultural stigmas do exist specifically about oral contraceptives and that these stigmas have impaired many women from getting access to birth control... If you're taking proactive action to have a healthy sex life, you're a slut.

Are you talking about adult women who are sexually active? The attitude you are talking about seems rather quaint in 2010. I remember hearing that sort of thing in the 1960's. What age female are you talking about? A teenager?

It does seem very 1960's, but I assure you it is still present. In college, as a wellness educator, when answering questions about birth control, it was almost a given that a student would ask if their parents would be told. Now this wasn't even the acquisition of the pills, this was just the talk about where you could get them. One time, a girl said that she wasn't comfortable going into the Student Health Services building, because she thought that the girls that go there are all pregnant and that she didn't want people to think she was a slut.

So while the mentality is old, it is still very present and doing harm.

firefly wrote:

What adult woman in her right mind would not take measures to prevent an unwanted pregnancy? And oral contraceptives are more reliable than other measures. If she was that worried about being thought a slut, she wouldn't be having sex, or she'd limit the number of partners. Do you think women also avoid using diaphragms? A condom, while necessary to help protect against STDs, is not the best method of birth control if used alone.

It's not just birth control, it's all forms of sexual health issues.

A bit of context here. I went to college in a rural part of Missouri. The campus was pretty conservative. However, don't assume that this was isolated to some bible belt culture. I also traveled and met with other college wellness educators from all over the country, and sexual health awareness topics are still being met with major social resistance everywhere.

firefly wrote:

And there are men who give females a hard time when it comes to their using condoms. Some men won't use them at all. A smart adult woman chooses a method of birth control that she has some control over. That's why when oral contraceptives were introduced on the market, women suddenly became freer to have sex.

Agreed.

Interesting side story. The FDA has been testing a male pill for birth control for several years now. I think it's pretty great. I remember telling my current girlfriend about it in a talk about BC. I thought she'd think it was great too. I've always thought it seemed unfair that oral pills were so expensive (comparative to condoms), so I've offered to help with the costs. She said that the male pill would be scary. She said that it's one thing if there's a mistake with her pill, another if it was with his. She said, she trusted herself more to take the pill because the consequence falls on her, she didn't feel like a man would feel the same imperative. I had never thought about this before, it was an interesting point. I guess my bottom line is the more measures taken for sexual health and birth control, the better.

firefly wrote:

A women who would be afraid of being thought a slut, if she uses oral contraceptives, has hang ups or guilt about having sex. I don't think that's true of most women these days.

Even if it's not 50% of women, my experience says that way TOO MANY women are not sexually educated in a way to liberate their minds on the topic of sex.

What I'm describing is proof that the religious right's intervention in sexual education has been effective at getting people to make decisions out of fear and not from scientific knowledge. Compound that with lots of virginal mysticism, and voila: Stigma. It's truly sad.

firefly wrote:

Aren't most video games males enjoy high action, high excitement, high level of stimulation? Isn't that what helps them to have an addictive effect on players?

Some very interesting work has been done on what makes successful. I read an article in Electronic Gaming Monthly about a year ago which analyzed the psychology of game creation. High action, high excitement games do well in terms of quick sales, but not in addiction. Most of these games have a linear plot and game play, while expandable, was finite. The advent of online interactive gaming lead first to many action packed titles, however what has come from the MMORPG is that people want the social and interactive part more than the action and excitement. Certainly, if you've watched a person play WOW, you'd quickly realize that WOW is about as exciting as working in a cubicle.

firefly wrote:

Isn't that more suited to the testosterone laden male?

The action packed ones, sure. However the gaming market which has the most addicted players are not as action packed. My friend Jon I mentioned, he's doing research for his professor on Farmville, a farming video game application for Facebook. The game is not action packed or even exciting. It does not have cutting edge graphics either. Despite all of this, the game has 50 million users.

firefly wrote:

While some females might enjoy them too, wouldn't they really appeal more to men based on biology?

The action one perhaps, but not necessarily the puzzle games. Even the action games have linear RPGs in which very deep and involved plots unfold. The Final Fantasy franchise has a large female fan base.

firefly wrote:

You could design games to appeal to more women, but they'd likely be different kinds of games.

That's kind of my theory.

firefly wrote:

And they'd have to compete with the other things women enjoy doing in their free time--like communicating, in one form or another.

So when video games have a large social element, you'll see that women won't be forced to choose. I see this already happening.

firefly wrote:

Are men going to learn to love shopping? Not all women love shopping, but many more women do than men.

Yes. It's already evident is it not? Men are becoming a larger consumer base for fashion, and cosmetics (like hair products). It's been such a cultural phenomenon, that the obnoxious term "metrosexual" was coined. The term engendered with the notion that the consumer savvy male was in some way odd.

firefly wrote:

Some differences may not be cultural. Men and women are not exactly the same. There are differences.

Very often different, yes.

A
R
T

1 Reply

@Joe Nation,

Joe Nation wrote:

Didn't discuss porn with them, but I'll share this: every time a woman has suggested we watch some porn together, it seemed to me to be a way for her to help me get hot. (Talk about a waste of time!)(My jets seem never to cool.)

Proof that men are not going to end.

A
R
The trick is to never let your jets cool

0 Replies

@failures art,

Quote:

All I'm saying is that as women gain a greater element of control of the porn industry, you'll see many of the themes and elements of romance novels appear in visual media.

Then they probably won't be what you think of as porn.

You know, it occurs to me that what you are discussing, in terms of playing video games, and looking at porn, are activities that don't involve actually interacting with people, they don't involve communicating with someone to any great degree. Sure, you can play a video game with other people, but that's very different than say playing Scrabble, where you can chat a lot while playing. If anything, looking at porn and playing video games, removes one from actual meaningful interactions with other people.

Quote:

firefly wrote:

And they'd have to compete with the other things women enjoy doing in their free time--like communicating, in one form or another.

failures art wrote:
So when video games have a large social element, you'll see that women won't be forced to choose. I see this already happening.

My point is that video games don't have much of a social element, while you are playing them. People get involved with the game. Women like to communicate--they like to talk, to text, to post on facebook, go shopping with friends, send e-mails, chat on the telephone. They like to engage with people, stay connected in relationships, share feelings.

Why would women even want video games when they could be doing all of those other things that connect them to other people, and that are also enjoyable activities?

Why would a woman want to watch porn rather than actually make love? Or rather than just watch a good romance movie?

What is she going to get out of those things, like porn, or video games, that would add to her life? Or don't men even think that way. Smile

Men and women may operate on different wavelengths in certain respects.

3 Replies

@firefly,

Quote:

know, it occurs to me that what you are discussing, in terms of playing video games, and looking at porn, are activities that don't involve actually interacting with people

Maybe it is just me, but most guys I know play xbox live, and are constantly talking (ie interacting)to their fellow players through headsets and microphones as they play.

1 Reply

@firefly,

To which I'll simply respond: Wait.

Quote:

Then they probably won't be what you think of as porn.

Or the boundaries of porn expands. Certainly, Stephanie Meyer's Twilight books could be read as an omen that female literature which is sexualized is finding it's place in the mainstream. Perhaps in a few years, more graphic authors might have their novels adapted. You're right, they might not be what I would think of in terms of porn, but I'm a man. If women see these films through a erotic lens, then it really doesn't matter what I call it though.

I think your description of people playing video games is pretty far from what I've experienced. My college friends play League of Legends with Skype up and chat. A transcript of the conversation would describe how everyone is liking or hating their job and how they are getting along with their girlfriends/wives. Certainly this could not be thought of as less social than playing scrabble, which is not even an option given how far a wide we are separated in the USA. We aren't being forced to choose between social relationships and gaming. I think this is a false dilemma.

firefly wrote:

Why would a woman want to watch porn rather than actually make love?

Why would a man?

If your suggestion to men is put down the porn and go have sex with a woman, I think they'd remind you that it's not like going to get a cup of sugar from your neighbor or a head of lettuce from the grocery.

It's not like men en masse are turning down sex so they can masturbate to porn.

A
R
T

0 Replies

@failures art,

Quote:

I'll not say that video games don't effect a person, but I'm not going to agree that video games are only going to appeal to men/males. I don't doubt that you see what you see in young boys, but I'm saying you'll see it young girls as well if the market changes.

Are you responding to my post? Did you read what I said? Because I said that I didn't ascribe any reason for anything beyond the fact that boys are playing video games more than girls are. This is the second time I'll say that I haven't assigned a reason. I'm just saying that they do.

Quote:

Also, what makes you think Facebook is primarily a female thing?

I didn't say it was primarily a female thing. I said females seem to prefer it to video games. That in no way implies that I think males don't also like or participate in it.

Quote:

Perhaps a difference in us is that I don't see such a divorce between the genders as you do.

I think divorce is the wrong word, if you're talking about how I view the genders. I honestly love the difference I see in genders and I'd be sad to see them disappear. I'm a woman who likes men and who likes masculinity as a compliment to femininity. Does that mean I think all men have to be stereotypically masculine and all females have to be stereotypically feminine ? No, not at all.
But as far as I'm personally concerned - I like the differences - I think that often they make a perfect marriage of complimentary skills and tendencies.
I don't see it as the problem that you seem to imply that I do.

Quote:

I think most of the separation we observe is from cultural factors, not innate chromosomal ones. Cultures change. If video games and porn have appealed to men, and not women, should we not examine the cultural stigmas that might influence this?

I don't know who said anything about chromosomal factors. Was that something I'm supposed to have said? Because I didn't.

I don't feel culturally stigmatized to forego taking part in video games and porn if I want to - but I don't want to.
First of all - I like to be outside moreso than inside (literally) And video games would take away from my outside time, which is little enough as it is.

Secondly - I like to touch and feel things - I can't be bothered to watch other people touch and feel the things I'd want to be touching and feeling.
It's a big reason I don't watch tv except on the rare occasion - probably less than 2 hours a week. I don't want to sit in front of a screen watching other people do things I might want to be doing.
That's how I feel about porn.
I'm just not a voyeur. I just went to a nude beach last month and if anything - having it all hang out was less sexually arousing rather than moreso. All the mystery was done away with- bodies were everywhere - but they were just functioning machines. Again - that's what I always think on the rare occasion I watch porn. Those people look like machines - I don't need to watch them do what they do. For what?
It just doesn't do anything for me. It's totally unnecessary in terms of making me feel sexual or able to express my sexuality. I don't NEED it - and I don't want it.

Why do you think women would be better off watching porn and sitting in front of a computer playing video games without 'cultural stigma'?. If that's what you call equality - feel free to keep it.

You make such generalizations. I never said, 'All boys who watch porn and play games don't do well in school.' I said, 'Spending time watching internet porn and playing video games has cut into sleep time and SOME boys are affected adversely because they're tired. If you can do it and get enough sleep or if you can function on less sleep - more power to you.
And again I also said that now that girls are staying up posting and chatting on facebook - they might evidence the same lack of sleep and change in their performance.
That's all I ever said.

0 Replies

@firefly,

Quote:

Sure, you can play a video game with other people, but that's very different than say playing Scrabble, where you can chat a lot while playing.

Yeah, this simply isn't accurate, as I pointed out above.

Quote:

My point is that video games don't have much of a social element, while you are playing them. People get involved with the game. Women like to communicate--they like to talk, to text, to post on facebook, go shopping with friends, send e-mails, chat on the telephone. They like to engage with people, stay connected in relationships, share feelings.

Why would women even want video games when they could be doing all of those other things that connect them to other people, and that are also enjoyable activities?

Maybe you should ask them? 40% of videogamers are women, and there are more women over the age of 18 playing video games then men under the age of 17 - by a lot.

http://www.theesa.com/facts/gameplayer.asp

You may want to consider the fact that these online games are more fun - by a lot - than anything else in people's lives. I don't really play them anymore, because they are superior to practically every other interaction I have. It is addictive - I found myself turning down my friends' offers to do things in real life, because I had more important things to do within the game.

Later on in life, when the technology has improved more, I likely will spend ever-increasing amounts of time in these alternate realities.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Maybe it is just me, but

You should start most of your posts with this, as I assure you in most cases it is just you .

Most men I know do not play xbox live. They're too busy living their lives to play xbox "live".

2 Replies

@DrewDad,

Quote:

Most men I know do not play xbox live

my mistake, it should have read "most guys I know who play video games play xbox live"

0 Replies

@DrewDad,

DrewDad wrote:

hawkeye10 wrote:
Maybe it is just me, but

You should start most of your posts with this, as I assure you in most cases it is just you .

Most men I know do not play xbox live. They're too busy living their lives to play xbox "live".

I play Xbox using their Live service. There is no incompatibility between this and 'living their lives.'

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

The End of Men

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know