hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2010 05:24 pm
@firefly,
that's mighty wide of you to almost admit that good people could have a difference of opinion on the matter....
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  3  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2010 07:15 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
So either men and women are not equal, or some constraint has been applied to men at the very same time that one was removed from women.


What absolute nonsense!

For a person who constantly blames all evils on those (shudder) "feminists", you fall so easily into the trap of male-myth making. The notion that all advances made by women work to the disadvantage of men is truly absurd. Behind that view lurks a paranoia that contemporary women are systematically robbing men of their potency--in the boardroom and in the bedroom. These are male fears of inadequacy (and yes, we know you have them), and male myth-making works them into a frenzy, and then sends a message that men have to try to stem this tide of female power in order to regain control. Because now we have the prospect of men being excluded entirely, marginalized, rendered irrelevent....we face THE END OF MEN.

Good grief, and men have always thought that women were the more emotionally hysterical sex Rolling Eyes

Hawkeye, male whining about their alleged victimization at the hands of women, and whimpering about being the collateral damage of women's march to equality, is really puerile.

Cultures evolve, gender roles shift, the rules change, so what's the big deal? What on earth are you afraid of? Things won't be the way they used to be? Men won't be as "manly" as before? When it comes right down to it, what are you really afraid you will lose?

The goal of equality is to improve the situation for everyone, not just women. If a woman earns more money these days, or simply brings some money into the home, the entire family has a better income, the children have more, there is more consumer spending and the economy benefits. What difference does it make if her paycheck is fatter than her husband's? What is hurt by that? The male ego? His loss of his role as the hunter who returns with a carcass to slap down on the table? And, if society now has the full benefits of capable men and women, of all its talented adults, working in all areas of life, and at all levels of government, doesn't that benefit everyone? How on earth are men being disadvantaged by anything as a result of removing those sexist barriers that women had to face in the past, and still face to a lesser degree?

If the male psyche is really unable to adapt to cultural changes, and gender role changes, perhaps men should become obsolete as part of the evolutionary process. I give them considerably more credit than that. If they want to play video games in the dorm, while their female counterparts are studying hard, they won't be the ones getting into grad school. If they can't throw their laundry into the washer, and learn to cook some meals, they're acting like big babies who expect mommy to still be taking care of them, and being a baby isn't exactly macho or particularly appealing. If they'd rather watch internet porn than improve their foreplay techniques and love-making skills, then their wives and girlfriends might look to other men for excitement.

Giving women more options does mean men might have to work harder to get and keep what they want to have. More players on the field ups the level of competition, but it also makes for more interesting play. Men can't just coast by on some sense of inherent male entitlement anymore. They've got to invest time and energy into something, they've got to work harder, because, if they don't, they won't be able to keep their equal footing with women. and the fault will be their own.

So I think the basic premise of this thread is really a bogus argument. Men aren't being shoved aside, they aren't being constrained, they aren't being emasculated, it is not the end of the world as we know it. Women are not ascending in dominance, they are not running the show, and they have no desire to run the show--they want collaboration and cooperation, they want partnerships, they want equality. The whole notion of a war between the sexes is another male myth. In wars someone always loses. Women are interested in achieving, not in conquests. I really don't think that women feel they are engaged in a war with men, I don't think they ever felt that way. The enemy isn't men, it's sexism. And sexism, like racism, and every other form of prejudice and discrimination, doesn't just hold women back, it holds the entire society back. As the vestiges of sexism disappear, everyone benefits.

So, instead of whining about men being victimized by the progress of women (which is really still in its infancy), why aren't you rejoicing about the changes we've seen? Aren't they really to the long term benefit of everyone?
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2010 07:28 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
The notion that all advances made by women work to the disadvantage of men is truly absurd
I am saying no such thing, I am saying that by the rules of logic the statement that women are doing better than men because women are no longer held back by sexism as much as they where is a false conclusion...it is not logically possible unless a new constraint was added to men, or women have always been better than men.

Please let go of the emotion and try to track with the logic.

Quote:
What difference does it make if her paycheck is fatter than her husband's?
he who brings home the bacon has additional power within the relationship....the feminists we not always wrong about everything.

Quote:
they want partnerships, they want equality
the evolution of sex law, and the plans of the feminists for the future, argues that this is not true. Women want equality only so long as the men become what the women want them to be, they don't want to be equal with men as they are. What man has not been though some program of his woman to improve him?
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2010 09:07 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
I am saying no such thing, I am saying that by the rules of logic the statement that women are doing better than men because women are no longer held back by sexism as much as they where is a false conclusion...it is not logically possible unless a new constraint was added to men, or women have always been better than men.


Those must be the rules of your logic, rather than than the rules of logic most people go by.

Woman aren't doing better than men. In what sphere are women clearly doing better?

And, yes, women may do better than men at certain things. They may have always been better than men at certain things. Have you any doubt of that?

Quote:
he who brings home the bacon has additional power within the relationship....the feminists we not always wrong about everything.


So, you finally admit it is power you want to hold onto. The power to control the woman in the relationship.

Quite correct, the feminists were not wrong in suggesting women should not have to be subjugated in a relationship.

Quote:
Women want equality only so long as the men become what the women want them to be, they don't want to be equal with men as they are


Women want to be just as free from constraints as men. They are seeking freedom, the same kind of freedom that men have always enjoyed.

Would you say that the Blacks want equality only as long as the Whites become what the Blacks want them to be? Do you realize how absurd that is? It is just as absurd if you substitute women for Blacks and men for Whites.

BTW, what makes you such an expert on what women want?

Quote:
What man has not been though some program of his woman to improve him?


Gee, why would a woman want to ever improve a man...

http://www.cosmeticsurgeon.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/beer-belly.jpg






hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2010 09:12 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
They may have always been better than men at certain things. Have you any doubt of that?
better than men at being willing to work, showing initiative, and at gaining intellectual smarts....do you really want to argue that women are naturally better at all of that?
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2010 09:14 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Gee, why would a woman want to ever improve a man...
you do realize I am sure, you being a smart broad and all, that you are increasingly sounding like the archetypal man hater?
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2010 09:17 pm
@failures art,
I have no interest in video games but, then, I dislike games with the exception of Scrabble, Bogle and Sudoku. I hate games that involve chance.

Porn always turned me off. Sex without context is boring.
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2010 09:19 pm
@firefly,
Gag!
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2010 09:47 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
better than men at being willing to work, showing initiative, and at gaining intellectual smarts....do you really want to argue that women are naturally better at all of that?


You are the one who is saying that women are better at men in those areas. You've said that men aren't going after an education, they are losing their jobs, they won't earn as much, women won't want them, they won't have love or sex or families, they will be displaced, they might become violent and burn down cities. Laughing That's been the point of your thread.

I don't think that men are "falling behind" at all. You are the one who is predicting doom and gloom for the men. I think men are quite capable and they are doing fine. I expect they will continue to do fine.

You are so panicked about losing power over women, and so fearful that women will start controlling you, that you overreact to any indication that women seem to be catching up in many areas and you take that as a sign men are falling by the wayside . Calm down. It's not happening. Your thinking is dominated more by emotion than logic. Is it that time of the month for you?

hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2010 10:37 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
You are the one who is saying that women are better at men in those areas. You've said that men aren't going after an education, they are losing their jobs, they won't earn as much, women won't want them, they won't have love or sex or families, they will be displaced, they might become violent and burn down cities. That's been the point of your thread.
thats what the stats say, the OP in slate was asking why this has happened

Quote:
catching up in many areas and you take that as a sign men are falling by the wayside . Calm down. It's not happening. Your thinking is dominated more by emotion than logic. Is it that time of the month for you?

women are pulling ahead, the facts are clear, those of us who think that woman being able to dominate relationship is just as bad as when men could have a problem with this state of affairs, and would like to see a remedy. women such as you saying "serves you right" or saying "You are imagining this" in spite of the stats dont help matters. Women if they are smart will not allow vengeance to blow off men's concerns, nor will they patronize us. One thing is clear, given human nature if women can power over men they will do so.

Edit: there is only one fix...women have to voluntarily give up power to get to equality, just as men did. We can start with fixing sex laws..
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2010 10:52 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
One thing is clear, given human nature if women can power over men they will do so.

Good grief, what is this, the law of the jungle? I'm sorry you live in such fear of women.

http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/ear0631l.jpg
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2010 11:01 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Good grief, what is this, the law of the jungle? I'm sorry you live in such fear of women
Nothing has happened to nullify the fact that power corrupts. You can see this in just about every part of life today.
firefly
 
  3  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2010 11:46 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
: there is only one fix...women have to voluntarily give up power to get to equality, just as men did. We can start with fixing sex laws..


So, let's see. You want women to voluntarily give up power (which they really don't have yet) to get to equality (which women are only first beginning to attain), just as men did (men gave power up voluntarily? Women didn't have to fight for the vote? Or civil rights laws? I guess, since women didn't have to overthrow the government to get the vote, you consider it "voluntary"). And we can start with fixing sex laws.

AND WE CAN START WITH FIXING SEX LAWS???????

Of course, "sex laws" explain why you think men are falling behind, losing their advantage,etc and, if we fix the sex laws, we will save men from becoming marginalized and irrelevent. That really makes a lot of sense. Rolling Eyes

Well, you finally revealed your true agenda with starting this thread, Hawkeye. You want to continue your usual rant about the "expanding abominable sex laws". I've heard your spiel before, in several threads, and have no interest in hearing it again. You've delivered it so many times, you should just be able to cut and paste and insert it in this thread.

hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sat 24 Jul, 2010 11:50 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Well, you finally revealed your true agenda with starting this thread, Hawkeye. You want to continue your usual rant about the "expanding abominable sex laws". I've heard your spiel before, in several threads, and have no interest in hearing it again. You've delivered it so many times, you should just be able to cut and paste and insert it in this thread.
I am not the one who had the bright idea of using sex law as a hammer to pound men. I also am not guilty of having the lack of morality required to actually use it,
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 04:47 am
Hawkeye, if you're so concerned about the impending doom of man, why don't you get a pulpit and preach about it on the streets? To men, of course. Tell them to get off their lazy asses, away from the video/tv screens and actually put their backs into some work/studying/whathaveyou?

Firefly, you wrote an excellent post.

Hawk, the only thing stopping men from achieving is themselves. You didn't give up anything voluntarily - that statement made me choke on my coffee. Not too long ago (1800s) when a couple divorced women got nothing but being shunned by society. When they married, all a woman owned became her husband's and he controlled it. He could tell her she wasn't allowed to read newspapers. She wasn't allowed to vote, enter university (what for, isn't cross-stitching and painting enough for you, dear?), or otherwise exercise her mind. Surely you've heard of the suffragette movement - that wouldn't have happened if men had been willing to share their rights - that means voluntarily Smile During the war, women worked in factories; when the men came home, they were booted out, even though they might have been widowed in that very same war and had families to feed, too.

The list could go on and on. Women had to fight for their rights. When you look at those stats posted earlier, I find it really hard to feel sorry for men - they're still making more than women, esp African-American or Latina women for the same work. Awww... poor men!

I admit that teaching has become more female-oriented and young males are a bit lost with those methods. But surely they can adapt? Or perhaps we should go back to gender-based schools? At any rate, not all men are falling by the wayside. They still enter university, still get accepted to grad school, still wind up with professions, still get married. Maybe the others should just knuckle down and work harder.

You should rejoice that women are doing so well. As Firefly said, it benefits the whole of society.

I could go on but I've another breakfast to cook. Back later.
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  2  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 05:21 am
Hawkeye is airing a great many strange personal issues that should be discussed with a therapist.
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  2  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 05:58 am
@failures art,
Quote:
RE: Video games. I'm not surprised so many games have failed to capture female minds--they are often created by men. I'm saying that once women start becoming a greater force in the creation and genesis of games, you'll see a larger female market. This I see as inevitable (the becoming a part of the creation) because women are expanding into tech jobs like computer programming and entertainment).

You may be right - I'm just saying it hasn't happened yet and so may explain why the performance of boys has fallen off academically, while the performance of girls hasn't.
Quote:
RE: Porn. Similar to the above. Porn isn't new, but women producing porn (not just starring in it), is something that is much newer. You don't think there is a market? Millions of Danielle Steele novels sold suggest otherwise in my opinion. Porn as an industry has been mostly produced by and for men. I'm simply saying that if the who in production changes, the market will expand to a wider audience. I'm not convinced that this is solely a male fixation. Additionally, as an anecdote, I know many women who love porn, and for no different of reason than any man.

I can't say I've studied it. I myself don't get stimulated by porn - except to laugh - and HARD- whenever I see it. So I guess maybe POM and I are abnormal women because I'm a woman who needs/wants a context around my sexual stimulation or simulation as well.

Quote:
Your reasoning for why girls/women are disinterested in video games and porn sound very similar to the arguments of old as to why girls/women would not be interested or successful in technology or engineering jobs
.

I didn't give any reasoning. I just said, 'Girl's have not bought into video games to the extent boys have.' I gave no indication of why I think this might be.

But I will tell you- as someone who was a girl, has parented a girl and a boy, and has taught hundreds of girls and boys of all ages - I can tell you that in the last ten to fifteen years, I've seen a major change in the manner in which boys and girls approach school and their work there.

The boys come in exhausted at nine o'clock in the morning - because they've been up all night playing video games on their computer. You can try to convince me all you want, but I KNOW this has had an impact on their performance in school.
Maybe we'll see the same effect with girls because of Facebook. Who knows?

And just to be clear - I'm someone who believes in the efficacy of and enjoys gender differences. I do not hold one gender to be superior to another. I'm happy there are two and I enjoy both equally for the talents and strengths they bring to our world.
And I hope boys learn how to use video games and internet porn moderately enough that it doesn't effect their academic performance in a negative way.

I want to see them succeed as much as I want to see young females succeeding.

It's not a frigging contest to me.
DrewDad
 
  4  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 11:46 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
I am not the one who had the bright idea of using sex law as a hammer to pound men.

You're really not a black person being oppressed by Jim Crow laws. Nice try to co-opt the language, though.

You can shape your own destiny. Please stop complaining that you're being victimized.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 12:42 pm
@aidan,
Quote:

failures art Quote:

RE: Porn. Similar to the above. Porn isn't new, but women producing porn (not just starring in it), is something that is much newer. You don't think there is a market? Millions of Danielle Steele novels sold suggest otherwise in my opinion. Porn as an industry has been mostly produced by and for men. I'm simply saying that if the who in production changes, the market will expand to a wider audience. I'm not convinced that this is solely a male fixation. Additionally, as an anecdote, I know many women who love porn, and for no different of reason than any man.

aidan Quote:
I can't say I've studied it. I myself don't get stimulated by porn - except to laugh - and HARD- whenever I see it. So I guess maybe POM and I are abnormal women because I'm a woman who needs/wants a context around my sexual stimulation or simulation as well.


aidan, I don't think you are abnormal at all. I think most women need some context around their sexual stimulation. And, as you mentioned in an earlier post, most women are not stimulated visually to any great extent. Looking at photos of nude men may turn on gay men, but not most heterosexual women. I really do think women are wired differently than men in this respect. Woman have already had the opportunity to produce this sort of porn if they wanted to, but there really isn't much of a market for it.

I remember when Playgirl magazine first hit the market with a nude male centerfold (I think it was Burt Reynolds, but I'm not sure). It wasn't even really porn, but there was a lot of curiosity and twittering about it because it was such a novelty at the time. Woman bought the magazine and looked at it, but it really didn't launch any trends or proliferation of similar publications as there are with all the men's magazines. Playgirl is still around, featuring male hunks, but these are just photos of good looking men, and not the stuff of real sexual arousal for most women who look at them. Cosmopolitan magazine is also still around (I think), because women enjoy articles about sexual topics, and when Cosmo first came out they were breaking new ground.

I've never read a Danielle Steele novel, or any of the Romance genre, but those are novels, with a context and a plot, and they appeal to women for many different reasons. They are more erotica than porn. Same with the soft core porn movies which some women do enjoy watching, but generally with their male partners, rather than by themselves. Then it's something that becomes a shared experience and it can be mutually arousing. I confess, that like aidan, I have tended to laugh, a lot, when I've watched these flicks. The "plots" and dialogue tend to be absurd, and my partner's reactions have also been laughter provoking at times. On one memorable occasion, he kept hilariously insisting that the male star was was wearing a fake penis because no one was naturally that large, and his attempts to continually point out its artificiality had me convulsed with laughter. The sight of the actor's large member was not a turn on for me at all. And neither was much else about the film.

Women could be making and producing porn for the female audience now, if they really wanted to. I really think there is almost no market for it. In some respects, women and men really are different and are sexually aroused by different sorts of stimulation. There may be women who love hard core porn, but their numbers probably wouldn't support a whole separate industry. If there was a demand, I think we'd already have seen evidence of it, and some business savvy female would have taken advantage of it.
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2010 01:57 pm
@firefly,
You are right about Playgirl not starting a trend and about romance novels being erotica rather than porn.

I remember one sad evening during me senior year of college, 1969. I had a date with a man I found very attractive who was a professional photographer. We went to a concert by Rotary Connection because he had to take pictures of them for some reason. The concert was fun and we crawled along a cat walk above the stage to get some interesting shots. After the concert, he was invited to a party by a couple he barely knew.

Well, we were one of three or four couples at the party held at a small home. The hostess was a model and the house was decorated with 24 x 18 shots from her portfolio. After their kid was in bed, we all went down stairs to the rec room to watch porn. I was quiet during the 'screening.' Afterwards, the hostess said that she would have been offended just a short time ago had (insert name here) shown her porn but, "now that I know this is the thing to do, its okay."

He apologized in the car on the way back to my parents' house. He said that he had met the man and that he had gone to some event with them and that this was the third time he did anything with them. He did not expect the porn. He complimented me on how I handled myself but, if there would have been anything between us, that evening spoiled it.

I ran into him a few years later when he was the boyfriend of a woman I worked with. He turned out to be a super person.
0 Replies
 
 

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