Evangelical Christian Fundamentalism and American Politics

ye110man,

I agree with you, but I don't give other religions a break anymore than I do Christians, if they are extreme, destructive, controlling or dangerous. I have little love for Muslim or Jewish terrorists, for instance.....or any other terrorist, for that matter. The subject of this thread is our own home grown, mind controlling terrorists, who are organized to dominate our government, but I don't like anyone of any flavor who tries to interfere with my liberty.

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Lola wrote:

But also, it's one thing to hold certain beliefs, which is fine with me, it's another to try to force others to hold those beliefs as well.......and even if they don't hold them, to try to force their version of morality on others. This is not freedom, it's subversion, tyranny.

Isn't that what we really all do? We cast our votes for the politicians of our choice to do what we want - to create and pass laws. Aren't those laws just a way to force our views on others? (Primarily those that oppose those views and laws..) Whether that view is on taxes, schools, highways, social programs, etc.. that IS what it really all boils down to isn't it? Every law passed is a subversion to someone.

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Lola wrote:

But also, it's one thing to hold certain beliefs, which is fine with me, it's another to try to force others to hold those beliefs as well.......and even if they don't hold them, to try to force their version of morality on others. This is not freedom, it's subversion, tyranny.

it's neoconservatism.

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I believe it was Rhode Island that was founded as an escape hatch from religious tyranny in Mass. It's and old American story ripe for repetition. But, indeed there is something weird about America and religious fanatacism that seems to come and go with the seasons. From burn the witches to burn the liberals (perhaps it's simply arson in their hearts that they think is "salvation" rather than heartburn. I don't really see anything new in this current revival other than the body politic utilizing the religious ferver for power and the media allowing albeit encouraging such as having the Rev Dodson or Falwell as talking heads in commentary on social/political issues. The media thus encourages and abets such banal opines of
extreme thought as if it were congruent with mainstream thought. Bizarre.

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fishin,

Yes, we are all trying to influence and regulate others, I agree. But my problem with this crowd is that they are a highly organized minority. They've been organizing since the early 1980s and are dangerously close to succeeding in their attempt to dominate our government. In the last ten years, they have been using more and more secretive techniques because they know if they tell the truth about what they are up to, the majority of American voters would never allow it. And they are not interested in liberty for anyone other than themselves. There's nothing illegal about their approach. My point is that they are a threat to our liberties and they are closer than most realize to succeeding in their goals. I'll continue to post excerpts from some of their web sites. The one I've posted above is an especially open statement of their extreme views. But mostly, in the last decade, they have toned down their public exposure because they know it loses votes. The excerpt posted above is from the email I receive from them because I donated $10.00 in order to be on their email mailing list. (That's why there's no link.) The web site is considerably less extreme.

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yes, ye110man, it's neoconservatism linked with fanatical, coercive religion.........it's a lethal combination, IMO.

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Hypocrisy comes in all flavours and brands. I took my MA at the University of Maryland, Baltimore County (Uinverrsiddy a' Murrlin, Bawlmer Caowny, hon! ) . The school had a program for mathematics and science teachers from Egypt, who would spend a semester there learning to use technology in the classroom. Usually the female teachers did well and had no problems. The male teachers, however, could ususally be found parked at a computer in the library looking at web porn. One of them got booted from the program in the spring of 2000 for peeping in the girl's bathroom. This same group (the ones who looked at web porn) often tried to "take over" the Muslim Student Association each term. We got quite used to their "I am from Egypt, I understand Hadith and Sharia better then you Americans!" So why are you looking at porn, peeping at the girls, and polishing the bishop in the bathroom, then? They ususally were really upset at those of us who were affiliated with the group, but weren't Muslims, but that's another story.

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needless to say, if one does not understand the mind of the enemy, one is destined to defeat. The neo-con and the religious zealot have a better grasp of the enemy than we do of them.

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dyslexia wrote:

needless to say, if one does not understand the mind of the enemy, one is destined to defeat. The neo-con and the religious zealot have a better grasp of the enemy than we do of them.

Perhaps there is more truth in this than those participating here are willing to recognize dys...

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lao tzu:
Compassion is the finest weapon and best defence.
If you would establish harmony,
Compassion must surround you like a fortress.

Therefore,
A good soldier does not inspire fear;
A good fighter does not display aggression;
A good conqueror does not engage in battle;
A good leader does not exercise authority.

This is the value of unimportance;
This is how to win the cooperation of others;
This to how to build the same harmony that is in nature.

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fishin' wrote:

Quote:

Isn't that what we really all do? We cast our votes for the politicians of our choice to do what we want - to create and pass laws. Aren't those laws just a way to force our views on others? (Primarily those that oppose those views and laws..) Whether that view is on taxes, schools, highways, social programs, etc.. that IS what it really all boils down to isn't it? Every law passed is a subversion to someone.

Exactly, but we can only see things as wrong when people we oppose do them. And there really is nothing wrong with getting involved in the political process or attempting to spread awareness. Under these tags, it's OK. Let's spread awareness about the wrongs of cigarettes. Let's spread awareness about the wrongs of date rape. Let's spread awareness about sexually transmitted diseases, gun control, drugs...etc. And then in the same breath we can put those people down who spread awareness about things that otherwise concern them. Christians have every right to be as much a part in the political process as anyone else and use the same tools as everyone else.

Our civil rights have been threatened by more than just fanatical Christians. We forget we have immoral beings with no belief in God as well. And when did politics start governing morality anyway? Doesn't that go against who we are as Americans? We already have the extreme laws in place. Don't kill. Don't steal...etc. But, don't start telling me not to look at a beautiful lady in a public place or how I'm going to raise my children. It's not just the Christians anymore who are trying to control our lives on all levels. Christianity is just your scapegoat. The dust in your eyes while the real problems still need handled. We're being told by business officials and the court system that we can't ogle a woman when she looks good to us. And for the women, that's visa versa. OK I'll look the other way. We're being told how to raise our children by social services and the court systems. Spare the rod, spoil the child went out with Dr. Spock. Touch the child and you'll lose her...or him. I have a daughter. Sound like America? It's all the Christian fanatic's fault? It's this screwed up because those Christian fanatics don't get involved enough to balance out the two extremes.

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dyslexia wrote:

lao tzu:
Compassion is the finest weapon and best defence.
If you would establish harmony,
Compassion must surround you like a fortress.

Therefore,
A good soldier does not inspire fear;
A good fighter does not display aggression;
A good conqueror does not engage in battle;
A good leader does not exercise authority.

This is the value of unimportance;
This is how to win the cooperation of others;
This to how to build the same harmony that is in nature.

That is kick @#%&! Written in code so as not to offend anyone.

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Religious Domination.
I opposse any kind.

When we have a President who says that his fave politcal philosopher is Jesus then goes around saying "Dead or Alive", "Bring 'Em On" and orders killing, we have a problem. The President says that he gets intructions straight from God, I think we have a problem.

The Constitution and The Bill of Rights are being attacked and on the way to being obliterated. A major terrorist attack in ths country will most likey bring Martial Law. Many Christians say that this Govt. should be governed by God. We have a President that is a nutcase and feels that God appointed him to be President. I think we have a problem.

Many say that Theocracy is just plain wrong when it comes to Muslim countries but then say that the USA should be a Christian nation even though there a millions of people in the USA that are other than Christians. The USA claims that they want self governance in Iraq and Afghanistan but will not allow a Muslim Theocracy.

The USA is at present a Plutocracy. It may soon be a Police State, as well. Maybe it will become a Plutocracy/Theocracy. Seems to me that the majority of Americans would not object to that.

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pistoff wrote:

Quote:

The USA is at present a Plutocracy. It may soon be a Police State, as well. Maybe it will become a Plutocracy/Theocracy.

By design, America is very much a plutocracy. You have to be able to advertise on par with Nike to get elected. But, a theocracy? Not with all the backlash of anti-religious sentiment.

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Quote:

Our civil rights have been threatened by more than just fanatical Christians. We forget we have immoral beings with no belief in God as well. And when did politics start governing morality anyway? Doesn't that go against who we are as Americans? We already have the extreme laws in place. Don't kill. Don't steal...etc. But, don't start telling me not to look at a beautiful lady in a public place or how I'm going to raise my children. It's not just the Christians anymore who are trying to control our lives on all levels. Christianity is just your scapegoat. The dust in your eyes while the real problems still need handled. We're being told by business officials and the court system that we can't ogle a woman when she looks good to us. And for the women, that's visa versa. OK I'll look the other way. We're being told how to raise our children by social services and the court systems. Spare the rod, spoil the child went out with Dr. Spock. Touch the child and you'll lose her...or him. I have a daughter. Sound like America? It's all the Christian fanatic's fault? It's this screwed up because those Christian fanatics don't get involved enough to balance out the two extremes.

You're touching upon what I think is the real threat to our modern way of life. The conflict between organizations trying to control the lives of others and the individual's feeling of helplessness when it comes to defending themselves against such efforts by organized groups/business/politics.

Some Individuals have not felt empowered to govern their own lives for a very long time, while others are only now finding that power in newly organized groups.

Organized individuals had a great effect on American society/government after WWII and through the 70's via civil marches, unions, political action groups, boycotts and conservation groups.

The minority religious groups Lola speaks of learned well from the lesson of "power to the people" and have exploited it in more subtle but equally effective ways. They are aided by the more efficient machinery of advertising and marketing studies along with much broader, cheaper forms of mass communication that cable 24-hour news and the internet provides. They are able to have a much greater impact with much fewer people participating in the turning of the wheels.

Sometimes I find myself sitting with a stunned feeling of dismay over some of the manipulations and exploitations, but feel like a hypocrite for saying anything about it because a lot of it is the same tactics I participated in during the post WWII era. I just had a smaller, slower impact then what can be accomplished today by an individual with a word processor and an internet connection.

I think many of us ex-hippy folk are feeling like we've been beaten at our own game of political/social influence and are floundering about as we struggle to re-organize and invent counter defenses to our own tactics being used against us.

The problem is that the religious zealot minority doesn't really do anything illegal, they've just gotten very good at exploiting the weaknesses and loopholes in the laws and have the financial strength to strategically use those exploits to slowly make illegal the old methods we used for social change.

I don't feel like I've articulated very well what I'm trying to explore. Hope you were able to follow it inspite of my babbling.

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Control.
I feel that you stated your view well. Most of us want some control over our own lives. We are losing that as years go by. The main topic on this thread though is Christian Fundamentalists and I would like to stay with that topic. Another post could be started regarding "Control of Individuals in Society". It's a huge topic.

I feel that Right Wing Christians are as dangerous of a force as most others in the USA precisely because of the various reasons stated by others here. They feel righteous in their cause and have no compunction about being stealth about achieving their goals. They do a lot of grass roots level work on smaller town councils and school boards. This group is dead serious, well funded and highly organized. When they say that Christians are being persecuted it makes me laugh. I feel it is they who are persecuting and heavy handed in their rhetoric and tactics.

I have said many times that the President feels that he was appointed by God, follows the philosophy of Jesus and is personally instructed by God and no one has challenged this or made worriesome comments about that. Does this not bother anyone? Does no one believe that he made these statements?

It is the most scary thing to me that we have a President who makes statments like that. In my mind, either he is serious, which makes him a nutcase or he is just saying these things to make himself look good. Either way, that is damn worriesome in my view.

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Dys
Dys, I was interested in your post about the ebb and flow of religious zealotry in the U.S.

Do you know of any studies that show the time lines of such religious ebbs and flows? I wonder if there is a similarity between the boom and bust of the capitalist business cycle and the ebb and flow of religious fervor?

BBB

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Quote:

I have said many times that the President feels that he was appointed by God, follows the philosophy of Jesus and is personally instructed by God and no one has challenged this or made worriesome comments about that. Does this not bother anyone? Does no one believe that he made these statements?

It doesn't bother me. It cracks me up. GWB has never been very articulate. Almost anything he says, comes out wrong from what he intended. The fact is that we're not in a holy war, the terrorists believe they are. We just want money.

To get back to the fanatic Christian bashing, it is hysterical to think of these people as a well-organized, well-funded group infiltrating all levels of politics for the greatest amount of influence. First of all, the fanatics in Christianity make up the same numbers as any fanatics in any other group. A mere five percent at best. In fact, you could probably name them all. Second, to look at this group of people who have infiltrated town councils and school boards as an evil and powerful force is a bit far stretching. I see a guy with a wife and two kids. I see a single mother with a son. I see a grandma whose kids have all grown up and moved away. Hardly the demographics of a stealthy militia trained at the "God Academy of Brainwashing and Societal Overtaking."

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Pistoff,

It is primarily a struggle for power; power over you and your money and your freedom. The majorities in the House and the Senate are extremely thin. It takes a lot more work to have influence over an outcome then just having the power in numbers as we have grown accustomed to.

The reason this fits in with the topic of this thread is power. The power to make or break federal judges and Supreme Court justices lies with the Senate, the power to spend our tax dollars lies with the House. Both are in extremely important power struggles.

A few Supreme Court justices will probably resign in the near future. Their replacements will affect court decisions for the next quarter century. Political control of the Senate is extremely important in light of the current struggle between polarized viewpoints on a large number of social, political and religious issues.

The group with the most influential and efficient propaganda machinery wins the game for the next few decades. That's why we're seeing such bitter cat fights between pundants and why some folks are feeling their way of life is being threatened.

Michael,

What you are looking at are the grassroots people and seeing the innocence of their well-intended actions. What Lola and others are trying to do is focus the spotlight on the motives and tactics of the people orchestrating and influencing those grassroots people. Look beyond your backyard at the bigger trend in the tapestry.

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Pistoff wrote:

I feel that Right Wing Christians are as dangerous of a force as most others in the USA precisely because of the various reasons stated by others here. They feel righteous in their cause and have no compunction about being stealth about achieving their goals. They do a lot of grass roots level work on smaller town councils and school boards. This group is dead serious, well funded and highly organized. When they say that Christians are being persecuted it makes me laugh. I feel it is they who are persecuting and heavy handed in their rhetoric and tactics.

This isn't any different then what we boomers did to gain our power in the 60's and 70's. Women became more involved in local politics, gays got elected to positions of political power, workers got involved in union organizations, environmentalists boycotted many companies in protest of business practices. We felt just as righteous in those causes.

Give it some thought and see if you can articulate why the actions of the Christians is so foreign and outrageous to you when compared to the similar things we did. This is the heart of the issue that Lola is wanting to explore with this thread.

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Evangelical Christian Fundamentalism and American Politics

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