19
   

Roman Polanski free

 
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Jul, 2010 11:33 pm
@JTT,
Nods on that, JTT.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Thu 15 Jul, 2010 11:34 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
That was a serious no-no in the eyes of Americans only in some places, not in Hollywood.


I think that the whole issue of sex was a serious no-no but the seriousness was expressed, if you will, by hiding it from as many people as possible. Sure there was talk of jail bait, but the police weren't very serious about it because legislators weren't very serious about it because society wasn't very serious about it.

There was still too much puritanism about anything to do with sex and again, many people were much happier to hush things up than to have them spread through the news media. Same thing with abortions or being sent off to a secret place to have a baby.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Jul, 2010 11:41 pm
@aidan,
Aidan, no - I haven't even read your post, but no, I was talking for myself. I don't always agree with you, or you with me, but I always appreciate your posts. I have my own reasons to burst, once in a while.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Jul, 2010 11:51 pm
@JTT,
I'll agree with that too.

Heh, don't get used to it, I don't always agree... but here we are in sync.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2010 12:03 am
@JTT,
That's Rittenband. Really, someone besides me should look all the stuff up on him.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2010 12:14 am
@JTT,
Quote:
I think that the whole issue of sex was a serious no-no but the seriousness was expressed, if you will, by hiding it from as many people as possible. Sure there was talk of jail bait, but the police weren't very serious about it because legislators weren't very serious about it because society wasn't very serious about it


You are still avoiding the issue. Chew on this.
Quote:
Oberman notes that the emergence of feminism heavily influenced changes to statutory rape laws. The laws went largely unchanged until the end of the 19th century, when feminists sought to increase the age of consent to protect young women from potentially coercive relationships. As a result of these efforts, the average age of consent was raised from 12 to 18 years old.

In the 1970’s, second wave feminists began to challenge the underlying principles of statutory rape laws. Although they recognized the importance of protecting vulnerable minors from coercive and exploitative sexual relationships, they wanted to ensure that the laws did not unduly restrict the sexual autonomy of young women. In addition, there was a strong push to make the laws gender-neutral.
http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/08/SR/StateLaws/intro.shtml

Who has been pushing for these rape law changes? Feminists,as I have been maintaining for a couple of years here at a2k.

The victim in this case was almost 14, acted much older, by historical standards she was ready for prime time

This case happened in Hollywood, which is in California, a state that was leading the nation in many ways at the time. It was a very liberal state, Gerry Brown was Gov for God's sake....remember those days?It can be expected that the New wave of feminist effort to downgrade Stat Rape as a criminal offense had happened by 1977 in California. Furthermore, it is likely that the behaviour of the people of that state conformed to the new ideal, in this case free love where the young where not penalized for who they wanted sexually.

This was the setting for this crime, which is a completely different environment than is the land of the current mob of angry anti sex anti young people's rights folks who want Polanski's head.

Quote:
In the late twentieth century, feminists themselves became troubled by this apparent inconsistency, and many voiced concern that statutory rape laws amounted to state repression of female sexuality.(70) This concern, among others, led feminists in the 1970s to oppose gender-based statutory rape laws, arguing that they perpetuated offensive gender stereotypes and restricted the sexual autonomy of young women.(71)

This feminist "about-face" reflected the influence of the late 1960's and early 1970's sexual liberation movement, which coincided with the fledgling women's liberation movement, and gave the era's activists, including its feminists, a decidedly "pro-sek" character.(72) In 1966, William Masters and Virginia Johnson published The Human Sexual Response, which was widely popularized, and marked a dramatic change in the depiction of female sexuality.(73) With its emphasis on women's capacity for sexual gratification through clitoral stimulation, the book endorsed a new vision of sex. In their insightful study of the sexual revolution, Barbara Ehrenreich, Elizabeth Hess, and Gloria Jacobs reflect on the fusion of these two movements. "Masters and Johnson potentially offered a new social meaning for sex, one that was more consistent with women's emerging sense of independence."(74) The sexual revolution of the 1960s and 1970s was premised largely upon a belief that sex was inherently good, that nothing about sex hurts, and that women's sexuality was fundamentally like men's sexuality.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb6700/is_n1_85/ai_n28650099/pg_6/?tag=content;col1
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2010 12:18 am
@JTT,
JTT, the judge was removed from the case in 1978, because of inappropriate conduct, like talking about the case with reporters, and bragging about how he would put Polanski away for a long time. I'm not defending the judge.

They want to open an investigation into the plea deal arrangement that was made with Polanski, and the conduct of the judge, since a lot of mishandling of the case might have occurred. They should do this, they should have done it a long time ago. There was a good deal of backroom maneuvering with this case, and 33 years later they may not be able to piece it all together. The judge died in 1993, so they can't question him. It is relevant to the issue of why Polanski fled the country.

I want Polanski to get a fair deal. If the judge in the case was about to renege on a plea agreement, and throw Polanski into jail for his own reasons, that would have been wrong. They should try to determine what happened.

I'm not really interested in seeing Polanski go to jail now. I'm not sure that he would have done additional jail time in 1977 under that plea agreement. He did 42 days in jail as part of a psychiatric evaluation, and I don't think the prosecutor was asking for more. The snafu was coming from the judge. I think they should offer him the original plea again and give him time served. Why they haven't been able to work this out in 33 years I can't fathom. But I think they should work it out, have Polanski return to California, enter his guilty plea, receive his sentence of time served, and conclude the legal case against him in an appropriate manner.

The courts seem to have enormous problems dealing with high profile celebrity cases. They do turn into media circuses. The spotlight seems to affect the judges and everyone else involved. Polanski's celebrity and influence was always a factor in this case and it's still a factor. He's never gotten quite the same treatment as the ordinary person accused of the same crimes would have received. If he ever does return to a California courtroom, the media will be swinging from the rooftops and clogging the roads. It will be a spectacle.

But I still think they should wrap the case up legally rather than leave it hanging any longer. The recent extradition fiasco with Switzerland was ridiculous. The longer the case drags on legally unresolved the more absurd it gets. It is time for legal closure--in a California courtroom, with Polanski present.

roger
 
  2  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2010 12:22 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Victims should have a place to go like they do now, either an NGO or the Emergency room. Part of the intake should be the question "do you want law enforcement notified?" If the answer is yes then the cops come, find out what the deal is, put the victim in protective custody if need be till they make the case against the perp, and then nail the perp to the wall if he/she is guilty.


No. You are asking the victim to opt in. Too many victims of sexual abuse have their own feelings of misplaced guilt and shame to be confronted with a choice like this, especially in the state their minds might be when they show up at a hospital after just having been raped, and possibly being otherwise battered.
ossobuco
 
  0  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2010 12:27 am
@roger,
thank you, roger, you're faster than me on posting that.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2010 12:30 am
@roger,
Quote:
No. You are asking the victim to opt in
I am going to guess that you object to OPT out as well, on the same grounds, because of course you know what is best for these poor helpless victims who cant be trusted to be in charge of their own affairs....
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2010 12:36 am
@firefly,
Quote:
It is time for legal closure--in a California courtroom, with Polanski present.
That aint going to happen, because Polanski has zero reason to trust the Americans. California can close the case today, there is no reason for Polanski to put his head in the jaws of the tiger by comming here.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2010 12:37 am
@hawkeye10,
Yes, and for reasons you've already received from others.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2010 12:41 am
@roger,
Quote:

Yes, and for reasons you've already received from others.
Yes, this helping of the poor unfortunates at the expense of every single persons individual freedom has gotten ugly, and once is starts it always gets worse until people wise up. I dont figure I will live long enough to see America get rebuilt.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2010 12:55 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
It can be expected that the New wave of feminist effort to downgrade Stat Rape as a criminal offense had happened by 1977 in California. Furthermore, it is likely that the behaviour of the people of that state conformed to the new ideal, in this case free love where the young where not penalized for who they wanted sexually.

This was the setting for this crime, which is a completely different environment than is the land of the current mob of angry anti sex anti young people's rights folks who want Polanski's head.


If the "new wave of feminist effort to downgrade Stat Rape as a criminal offense had happened by 1977" , as you suggest, Hawkeye, Polanski would not not have been charged with the felony of unlawful sex with a minor. You aren't even thinking logically at this point. It was a crime in 1977, and it is still a crime.

And we haven't been talking about penalizing the young for who they wanted sexually. We are talking about a 13 year old who was raped by an adult male. Not just statutory rape, but rape as a sexual assault on a protesting female.
If you think that any feminists have pushed to downgrade rape laws, for that type of sexual assault, you are out of your mind.

That you even bring up sexual liberation and free love, in the context of a discussion about rape, against suggests you do not understand the crime of rape.

When the female says, "No" and the male coerces sex, he is assaulting her, he is raping her. It doesn't matter if the female is 13, or 35. It is rape.

"No", "Stop", "I don't want that", meant the same thing in 1977 that they mean in 2010--even in California.

0 Replies
 
roger
 
  2  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2010 12:57 am
@hawkeye10,
Seriously, I don't even know what you are trying to say with this post.
0 Replies
 
manored
 
  2  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2010 01:14 am
@Arella Mae,
Arella Mae wrote:

Ya know what? I'm not even going to bother.
Everyone has limits to their patience, but yours felt too short. We hadnt even entered a spiral of repetition yet, at, least, not as far as I could tell.

On the subject of spirals, the main segment of this thread has been spiraling for a while now, or at least it seens to me the same points are being throw back and forth with only anger added. That, will certainly lead nowhere.
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2010 01:21 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
I hope Hawk gets foisted on his petard.
You seem to be very confused.....my position is that Polanski was guilty of a crime, and that he should have been punished if the girls parents desired it, which they did. The agreed upon plea bargain was signed off on by everyone and sounds about right for the time and considering the facts of the case as we know them.

If you are going to criticized me please at least be adult enough to go off of what I have maintained as my position all along. This wide eye claim that I approve of rape and adults having sex with 13 years old can not be documented with my words.


Shall we go to some of the threads where you show direct approval of this? You have certainly alluded to such in this thread also.

The girls parents? Why the hell do you think the girls parents are the judge of the law and how to apply it?

Your views of the world are certainly skewed. I pity you, really.

I applaud Firefly and others for their endurance in suffering your idotic rantings and backing up what they say. You have nothing to back you up but your foolish rhetoric.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2010 01:25 am
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:

What?

None of this matters. A person who is thirteen lacks adult judgement, and thus is without informed consent.

I could posit that people of 22 lack adult judgement, but so far no good. Or that people of 57 d0. But thirteen, there is much data on that. No matter if she was a molded fox. A pliable thirteen is, to me, a victim, no matter if she just gets along.


Osso, you must have misread something. Aidan has not been in agreement with Hawkeye.

Hell, most reasonable people are not in agreement with him.

Hawkeye, to my knowledge, is the only one on this forum who thinks sex with young girls is ok. Check out a few of the threads where he talks about this.
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2010 01:31 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:

Yes, and for reasons you've already received from others.
Yes, this helping of the poor unfortunates at the expense of every single persons individual freedom has gotten ugly, and once is starts it always gets worse until people wise up. I dont figure I will live long enough to see America get rebuilt.


For once, I hope you are right
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2010 01:33 am
@Intrepid,
And you must have misread me. I'm not arguing with Aidan.

I argue slightly with firefly, who told us consent is not relevant. I think it is, in that people of younger years are by definition not able to give informed consent, and certainly not at thirteen.

I think Firefly misread me, and now you do have me somehow arguing with Aidan.


Please. Recheck all that.
 

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