Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jul, 2010 04:00 pm
@parados,
I can download your art all day and never get arrested but if I steal your wallet then I will get arrested. End of story.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jul, 2010 07:37 pm
@Night Ripper,
You are confusing local laws with federal laws.

Let's make a comparison that is topical and in the Federal realm.

If you download top secret information, would you argue that you aren't stealing it but only copying it? Would you also argue that you wouldn't be arrested?
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Tue 27 Jul, 2010 08:16 pm
@Night Ripper,
You are the type of chump that stops me from putting my admittedly mixed value art online. With luck, you'd hate my work. (So might Joe, but that's a tangent).

You are born of online privilege, a galloping user, by definition a sucking poster.. You pose in some kind of faux righteousness arguing with JoefromChicago, a patient individual.

The denouement of your premise is that art never has value.

What a future.
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jul, 2010 10:29 am
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:

You are the type of chump that stops me from putting my admittedly mixed value art online. With luck, you'd hate my work. (So might Joe, but that's a tangent).

You are born of online privilege, a galloping user, by definition a sucking poster.. You pose in some kind of faux righteousness arguing with JoefromChicago, a patient individual.

The denouement of your premise is that art never has value.

What a future.


Hi, welcome to the discussion. I make more than you from copyrighted content yet I'm still willing to see copyrights done away with. Chew on that for a while and come back with some kind of argument or don't come back at all.
0 Replies
 
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jul, 2010 10:31 am
@parados,
parados wrote:
You are confusing local laws with federal laws.


Show me a single local or federal law that says I can be arrested for THEFT OF PROPERTY simply by downloading copyrighted content. No law says that. This is a red herring.

parados wrote:
If you download top secret information...


What does that have to do with copyright law? Nothing.
parados
 
  0  
Reply Wed 28 Jul, 2010 02:25 pm
@Night Ripper,
So you are arguing that theft can't occur unless it is written specifically into US law? That seems a bit of a stretch, don't you think?
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jul, 2010 05:41 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:

So you are arguing that theft can't occur unless it is written specifically into US law? That seems a bit of a stretch, don't you think?


No, I'm trying to convince you that theft of property and unauthorized copying are two different things. My evidence for this is that the US legal system as well as most intelligent adults recognize the difference. So, you should too.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jul, 2010 07:04 pm
@Night Ripper,
Quote:

No, I'm trying to convince you that theft of property and unauthorized copying are two different things. My evidence for this is that the US legal system as well as most intelligent adults recognize the difference. So, you should too.

That is an interesting argument concerning the US legal system. So do you consider taking money you are not entitled to have from someone else to be theft? Since we are relying solely on the "legal system" for a definition, I just want to clarify what you consider "theft."


Can you point me to a study that shows that "most intelligent adults" recognize that copying copyrighted material isn't theft? Most of the people on this board, many of them who would be considered intelligent, would disagree with that notion. In fact you seem to be about the only one that makes that claim.
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jul, 2010 07:46 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:

Quote:

No, I'm trying to convince you that theft of property and unauthorized copying are two different things. My evidence for this is that the US legal system as well as most intelligent adults recognize the difference. So, you should too.

That is an interesting argument concerning the US legal system. So do you consider taking money you are not entitled to have from someone else to be theft? Since we are relying solely on the "legal system" for a definition, I just want to clarify what you consider "theft."


Can you point me to a study that shows that "most intelligent adults" recognize that copying copyrighted material isn't theft? Most of the people on this board, many of them who would be considered intelligent, would disagree with that notion. In fact you seem to be about the only one that makes that claim.


I'm not going to play 20 questions with you. Either make an argument that copyright should be considered theft or I'll remain unconvinced. I don't particularly care which you choose.
parados
 
  0  
Reply Wed 28 Jul, 2010 08:00 pm
@Night Ripper,
Can I make unsupported allegations and claim they are true, like you do?
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jul, 2010 08:07 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:

Can I make unsupported allegations and claim they are true, like you do?


I really don't feel the need to argue over common knowledge but very well...

Quote:
A new poll done by the Pew Internet & American Life Project shows that 43% of Americans on the Internet feel that downloading music is not stealing, while 31% feel it is. The same question asked of Americans regardless of their online status showed 40% saying downloading isn't stealing vs. 35% saying it is (plus 25% with no opinion).

The study also showed that 22% of Americans who have used the Internet have downloaded music. 78% of those people think they weren't stealing, but 61% said they didn't care if it was. Even more scary for the RIAA is the finding that 65% of people under 30-years-old who don't have access to the 'Net want to get online, and that 52% of those folks think downloading isn't stealing.

Demographics of the study found that “young, affluent, and highly educated people” tend to think that downloading music is not stealing.

Source: http://www.geek.com/articles/news/poll-says-downloading-isnt-stealing-20000929/


Anyways, this is besides the point. If you want to equate copyright with stealing then you need to make an argument for it. I'm waiting.


parados
 
  0  
Reply Wed 28 Jul, 2010 08:31 pm
@Night Ripper,
Quote:
It’s a Criminal Act
Copyright law protects the value of creative work
When you make illegal copies of someone’s creative work, you are stealing and breaking the law.


Quote:

The No Electronic Theft ("NET") Act

http://www.justice.gov/criminal/cybercrime/17-18red.htm
I find it interesting that Congress called it the No Electronic THEFT act and yet you argue the law has nothing to do with theft.



But here is the word from a Rabii

http://www.torah.org/learning/honesty/class64.html#


And then there are the Christian organizations
http://www.cmta.com/brochure.htm
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jul, 2010 08:59 pm
@parados,
Again, you are dishonestly trying to argue against downloading by linking to laws regarding DISTRIBUTING FOR COMMERCIAL GAIN. That law has absolutely nothing to do with downloading but you continue to claim that downloading is theft. Why is that?

Do you have an argument for why it's theft or not? If so please provide it so I can respond to it instead of just linking to religious articles.
parados
 
  0  
Reply Wed 28 Jul, 2010 09:53 pm
@Night Ripper,
Quote:
Again, you are dishonestly trying to argue against downloading by linking to laws regarding DISTRIBUTING FOR COMMERCIAL GAIN.

How is that possible when you claim ideas can't be copyrighted?
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Jul, 2010 09:12 am
@parados,
parados wrote:

Quote:
Again, you are dishonestly trying to argue against downloading by linking to laws regarding DISTRIBUTING FOR COMMERCIAL GAIN.

How is that possible when you claim ideas can't be copyrighted?


So you don't have an argument for why downloading is stealing?
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Jul, 2010 11:08 am
@parados,
parados wrote:
How is that possible when you claim ideas can't be copyrighted?

Ideas cannot be copyrighted. Works (films, screenplays, novels, songs, music, etc.) are copyrighted, but not ideas.
0 Replies
 
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2010 12:36 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper wrote:
Why should copyright infringement be illegal?


It's a matter of defining property rights. I know you agree that physical stuff should be privately owned, and that such ownership rights should be enforced, by force if necessary. Why, then, shouldn't property rights cover immaterial structures, like an arrangement of ones and zeros? A structure is nothing material, and therefore the act of depriving someone of his property does not involve carrying physical stuff away. But why would that mean that we can't enforce such property rights?
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2010 02:24 pm
@EmperorNero,
EmperorNero wrote:

Night Ripper wrote:
Why should copyright infringement be illegal?


It's a matter of defining property rights. I know you agree that physical stuff should be privately owned, and that such ownership rights should be enforced, by force if necessary. Why, then, shouldn't property rights cover immaterial structures, like an arrangement of ones and zeros? A structure is nothing material, and therefore the act of depriving someone of his property does not involve carrying physical stuff away. But why would that mean that we can't enforce such property rights?


The only reason why I agree with physical property rights is because physical property is scarce. If I take your car, you can no longer use it. I've deprived you of something. If I take your ideas, you can still use them. I've deprived you of nothing.

I also disagree with intangible property rights because they make claims of control on other people's property. In a more perfect society, if I own a pen and some paper, I can do whatever I want with that pen and paper because it's mine, including writing a copy of a Harry Potter novel on it and giving it to a friend. In our current society, I can't do that. Even though I own that property, I'm limited in how I can use it by someone else.

There are two ways in which one my obtain property, by trading for it or by claiming unowned property. Neither of these methods involves creating something. If you steal some of my raw metal and make a sword with it, you don't gain ownership of that sword just because you mixed your labor with it. In fact, I would accuse you of theft and damage of property.

These three things taken together form the basis of why I don't recognize intangible property as legitimate.
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2010 02:29 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper wrote:
If I take your car, you can no longer use it. I've deprived you of something. If I take your ideas, you can still use them. I've deprived you of nothing.


Nonsense, you've deprived me of exclusivity, which we've already established has real-world value.

To use your own terminology, you are making it less scarce, thereby decreasing the value of my asset through the act of helping yourself to it.

Arguing that you should have the right to do so is one thing, but claiming that you take nothing from someone by taking their ideas is patently false.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2010 03:23 pm
I hate thievery, regardless of the justifications that may be advanced.
0 Replies
 
 

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