Afghanastan - Obama's war of choosing

@msolga,

msolga wrote:

I think it's fair to say that ordinary service men & women (of any country) have absolutely no say what-so-ever on the disastrous decisions of their governments?

Yes, I would agreee with this, on the whole.

Though there are ultimate limits to this line of argument in terms of the taking of personal responsibility for one's own actions, in general the further down the chain of command someone is, the less responsible they might resonably be deemed to be.

Though, of course, such a finely balanced philisophical distinction is not going to hold much water if you have seen a US or UK soldier kill your loved ones.

1 Reply

@stevecook172001,

Oh I certainly know about the limits. Make no mistake about that.
But they certainly aren't responsible for declaring war on another country in the first place, for declaring that a country should be invaded, for what ever give reason.
That's what I'm saying.

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@msolga,

msolga wrote:

Oh I certainly know about the limits. Make no mistake about that.
But they certainly aren't responsible for declaring war on another country in the first place, for declaring that a country should be invaded, for what ever give reason.
That's what I'm saying.

Agreed.

However, each and every one of us is responsible for what we do or do not do at the political level in terms of our wider response to the actions of our governments. None of us can avoid the moral implications of the above.

We each, in the end, have to face our own consciences.

Or not.

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@stevecook172001,

I do know what you're talking about, Steve.
I'm old enough to remember conscientious objectors.
However, professional soldiers are in a very different position to conscripted soldiers.

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@stevecook172001,

I dont need a history lesson or you and your buddies abuse. I asked a question about what you think the result of our withdrawal would be? You have admitted it will become a blood bath of retribution and the severe abuse of women. We will see women whipped in the streets and their rights abused. Thousands will die unnecessarily because you want the Americans to admit their sins. Afghanistan has become an international peace initiative with other Muslim countries involved in its recovery. It will take perseverance to resolve their bandit mentality, its not about Americas historic activity in the area its about being pragmatic on what the present position is and what we should be doing now. So dont believe I have no idea about the history of Afghanistan or I dont understand how we got where we are, this is now , face it and face the facts, we cant desert them now when we have given thousand the chance to move into the 21c.

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@xris,

xris wrote:

I dont need a history lesson or you and your buddies abuse. I asked a question about what you think the result of our withdrawal would be? You have admitted it will become a blood bath of retribution and the severe abuse of women. We will see women whipped in the streets and their rights abused. Thousands will die unnecessarily because you want the Americans to admit their sins. Afghanistan has become an international peace initiative with other Muslim countries involved in its recovery. It will take perseverance to resolve their bandit mentality, its not about Americas historic activity in the area its about being pragmatic on what the present position is and what we should be doing now. So dont believe I have no idea about the history of Afghanistan or I dont understand how we got where we are, this is now , face it and face the facts, we cant desert them now when we have given thousand the chance to move into the 21c.

So, you admit that the USA administration is directly responsible for arming the Taliban and promoting it's takeover of Afghanistan in an effort to fight a war by proxy with russia?

so you admit that the USa administration is directly responsible for arming the Bath party and promoting it's takeover of Iraq in an effort to secure cheap oil on it's terms.

I could go on

and on, and on and on....

The list is endless......

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@xris,

Quote:

I dont need a history lesson or you and your buddies abuse. I asked a question about what you think the result of our withdrawal would be? You have admitted it will become a blood bath of retribution and the severe abuse of women.

xris, I really don't mean to patronize you or anything like that, but can you understand that women have had a hideous deal before & also during this last (US & allies) occupation of Afghanistan? Their situation has remained pretty much the same. From all accounts that I've read, their circumstances & their prospects were best under Russian occupation. (Not that I'm advocating foreign occupation in any shape or form.)

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@stevecook172001,

I am also aware of many other injustices in the world. I know major powers abuse their ability, America is no different than China. The Taliban abuse their power , Shia the sunni they all abuse the ability when it serves their purpose. BUT whats that got to do with your proposal that we run away and leave them to the bandits?

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@msolga,

Patronize me ? you ignore the fact that women had no chance to work , be educated or choose the clothes they wore. They were openly beaten by bandits. Innocent children were made to chop of an enemies head and they massacred thousand of opposing tribes men. They may not have the perfect of lives but their lot is improving. What do say about the thousands that would loose their lives who openly supported us? is that acceptable to you? This naive attention to what we should not have done appears to blind you to the consequences of withdrawal.

1 Reply

@xris,

You're right, there may well be consequences for those Afghans who have worked with the US & allied forces. And of course the safety of those people should be considered. I have no idea of an acceptable way to withdraw troops & protect these people at the same time. However we will have to withdraw at some stage. I just wish he hadn't invaded Afghanistan in the first place.

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@msolga,

Embroiled in the argument of why and should, is not the subject. Obama inherited a situation not of his choosing. Would it serve any benefit to just pull out and leave those we gave hope to. The reasons why we entered and fought the Taliban is another argument, we have and we must accept it has happened. Yes we should pull out at some time but not give dates or sustain the Taliban by saying we are. We started it and we should shoulder that responsibility or we are just bad as those who initiated this incursion. We made war and we should give peace a chance.

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@xris,

The problem about "giving peace a chance" is what sort of a time-line could that involve? And there is no guarantee at all that peace is attainable. I understand what you're saying about our responsibilities to the Afghans who have worked with the US & their allies, but this argument can't be used as a justification for god knows how many more years of occupation & ongoing war. I don't know what the answer is. Perhaps those who have supported the invasion of Afghanistan have given this some thought? We have to leave eventually, after all.

1 Reply

@xris,

Quote:

Obama inherited a situation not of his choosing.

If memory serves, Obama campaigned on bringing the "war on terror" to Afghanistan. So you can not use your convenient "blame Bush" excuse for the mess currently in Afghanistan.

This is Obamas war and his responsibility. He needs to explain how Afghanistan is a threat to the security of the US.

Or maybe you can explain that.

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@msolga,

I think all agree we cant stay there for ever. I was hoping with true democracy, occupation would be part and parcel to a democratic solution. I was also hoping that a more acceptable assistance from Muslim countries could be formed. If the majority of Afghans wish us to stay, would you disagree with that? Should they tell us when we are no longer required? I dont think hysterics on the rights and wrongs of this war will resolve our present dilemma.

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@woiyo,

Look when I reply all you do is display a silly smiling face..do you want debate or just make political points. You cant pass the buck of previous administrations decision on to a new admin that easily , well not unless your bigoted.

1 Reply

@xris,

Quote:

If the majority of Afghans wish us to stay, would you disagree with that?

I honestly don't think the "majority of Afghans" are getting much, if any, say in the matter, xris. Nor did they when the Russians invaded, or the previous invasions. I also sincerely doubt that making deals with warlords is going to bring peace to Afghanistan. I believe we are out of our depth there & have little real understanding of the country we've invaded.

1 Reply

@xris,

Quote:

I was hoping with true democracy, occupation would be part and parcel to a democratic solution.

bizarre.

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@xris,

This is Obamas war and his responsibility. He needs to explain how Afghanistan is a threat to the security of the US.

Or maybe you can explain that.

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@msolga,

So you dont think they have any say? Is that it? I dont think its lack of understanding. So you will just leave?

1 Reply

@dyslexia,

LOOK if you have anything of value to add just make it a bit more valid, please.

1 Reply

Afghanastan - Obama's war of choosing

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