18
   

Why Have Americans Forgotten Their British Roots?

 
 
tsarstepan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2010 06:06 pm
@Sentience,
Sentience wrote:

Tea and Sympathy? That place is great. They make an amazing Shephard's Pie. It's interesting to find someone who is not only living in the city you take residence, but even goes to the same restaurants as me. Cool.


Pleasure to make your acquaintance. It is at Tea and Sympathy where I was introduced to the greatest desert known to man:
sticky toffee pudding!
Very Happy
aidan
 
  2  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2010 08:37 pm
@tsarstepan,
I used to think sticky toffee pudding was the best until I had Banoffee Gateau. That even outdoes sticky toffee pudding - it's like this mix of banana cream pie and toffee and cream - I've never tasted anything like it.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jul, 2010 11:26 pm
@mark noble,
When my grandfather first came to America from England
( Devon Shire ) in the 1800s, England was still invested with the spirit of liberty.

After the war, thay threw out Churchill, preferring socialism and gun control.
These are antithetical to personal liberty or dignity,
in service of colllectivist servility and docility. I reject those.

Over here, the citizens r not subjects, held in subjection,
but rather government is our low-life employee, created by us.





David
xris
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2010 02:25 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Its Devonshire. The democratic vote chose socialism and gun controls have developed over centuries not just in the 1950s. When you examine why so many left the UK you will find it was because of the oppression by a capitalist system. My family suffered through uncontrolled capitalism, that's why a socialist party gained so much support. We now have a political system where even the right are predisposed to include social projects. Conservatism in the UK in many respects looks like the Democrats in the US. We don't see social programmes as restricting our freedom, we feel it enhances our society and gives us all community security. We also dont see the possession of guns as a right, only a means to easy murder. What would any one need a gun for, it serves no purpose and kills more than it saves. Your own statistics show that the possession of guns indicates they are menace to everyone in America.
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2010 03:31 am
@xris,
xris wrote:
Its Devonshire.
Thank u; I 've never been there.
The closest that I 've gotten is the airport at Heathrow.


xris wrote:
The democratic vote chose socialism
Yes; its a pity. England was better as a free country. O, well. . . .



xris wrote:
and gun controls have developed over centuries not just in the 1950s.
No, that 's false. There was almost complete freedom until around the First World War,
thereby occasioning your begging us to send u our private guns
for the Second World War, which we did.




xris wrote:
When you examine why so many left the UK you will find it was
because of the oppression by a capitalist system.
Nonsense; when my grandfather left, he was supporting free enterprize. He did rather well, too.

Capitalism is freedom from government interference.
The economy is governed by the law of supply and demand: the laws of Nature.







xris wrote:
My family suffered through uncontrolled capitalism,
that's why a socialist party gained so much support.
Socialism is the philosophy of the criminal who uses democracy
as a weapon to rob those who have been more successful.
It is not respectable.



xris wrote:
We now have a political system where even the right are predisposed to include social projects. Conservatism in the UK in many respects looks like the Democrats in the US. We don't see social programmes as restricting our freedom, we feel it enhances our society and gives us all community security. We also dont see the possession of guns as a right, only a means to easy murder.
That 's because u DON'T HAVE any rights. U do not live in a free country.
The authority of Parliament is unlimited, based upon 2 military victories, the English Civil War
and the Glorious Revolution, wherein the armies of Parliament prevailed over the Stuart Dynasty.

U r held in SUBJECTION, whereas we CITIZENS created our own
hireling government and granted it limited powers,
strangling and crippling its domestic jurisdiction,
as a condition of allowing it to exist. One of the limits on its power
was that it had no jurisdiction over private ownership of guns.

Neither in England, nor here, were there any police until
the following century, to wit: the 1800s. Until then, everyone
was expected to defend himself.

One of the reasons that we withheld jurisdiction over guns from
government was to enable us to OVERTHROW it, if we deemed it necessary.





xris wrote:
What would any one need a gun for
OBVIOUSLY for self defense. Guns are emergency equipment.
Every predatory event is a contest of power.
I want the VICTIM to win, by controlling that emergency.




xris wrote:
it serves no purpose and kills more than it saves.
Your own statistics show that the possession of guns indicates
they are menace to everyone in America.
I used it to menace criminals who shot at me; it worked very well. Thay fled as soon as thay saw my gun.
http://www.proguns.com/images/used-guns/usedguns247-904/278taurus445.jpg

It was obvious that thay had hoped that I was unarmed and helpless. Thay were disappointed.
THAT is the purpose that it serves.





David
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2010 04:05 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
Over here, the citizens r not subjects, held in subjection,
but rather government is our low-life employee, created by us.


Dream on Dave.
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2010 04:20 am
@OmSigDAVID,
You obviously know nothing of British history or the reasoning why so many emigrated and why socialism, a means of maintaining freedom from exploitation, rose to prominence. If you had any idea about the suffering the working classes experienced your silly rhetoric would not be so bigoted. Your freedom is the freedom to exploit and control. It has been blatantly obvious by your American mindset , it has shown its capacity to interfere and manipulate its politics on a world that has grown tired of your certainties in capitalism. Don't confuse free trade with your example of capitalism , a country that has more trade restrictions than any in the free world. That's not free trade its a bastardisation of capitalism. You have less freedom than us in reality, this mirage you admire is for a new colony where you killed others to get what you wanted and dam the others freedom to keep his land.

Guns were licensed in the 1920s and hand guns made illegal in the 1990s nothing to do with the introduction of a socialist government, was it? You still will not accept that you kill more of your fellow citizens, usually close relative, than the proportional death toll in Iraq...Guns kill , the disadvantages outweigh any macho image you like to display. The historic reasoning behind guns in America was to defend yourself from a hostile native trying to get back the lands you stole,with a bow and arrow..Nothing to do with over powering a government that was democratically elected and could be impeached without he need of a silly hand gun tucked under your bed.
tsarstepan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2010 04:20 am
@aidan,
aidan wrote:

I used to think sticky toffee pudding was the best until I had Banoffee Gateau. That even outdoes sticky toffee pudding - it's like this mix of banana cream pie and toffee and cream - I've never tasted anything like it.

Then this is my life long quest to find this desert in the Gotham City.

I hope it will not become my own personal white whale!

Thanks a lot aidan! Mad
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2010 07:36 am
@TheMCewan12,
Be careful citing ancestry, 10% of Americans had an ancestor come over on the Mayflower.

A large percentage of Mongol males trace their ancestry to Genghis Khan.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2010 09:44 am
@xris,
xris wrote:
You obviously know nothing of British history
I suspect that I know more than u do,
based upon your posts.



xris wrote:
or the reasoning why so many emigrated
How many? When?




xris wrote:
and why socialism, a means of maintaining freedom from exploitation, rose to prominence.
I re-iterate: socialism is the philosophy of the criminal, who seeks to rob
the successful, of his property; it is not respectable.



xris wrote:
If you had any idea about the suffering the working classes experienced
That 's their tuff luck.
Capitalism is the FREE interplay of the laws of supply n demand; perfectly natural.




xris wrote:
your silly rhetoric would not be so bigoted.
I understand that word came from a captured Viking,
who refused to kiss the foot of the King of England; I can live with that.




xris wrote:
Your freedom is the freedom to exploit and control.
Everyone shoud use the laws of Nature to exploit n control as well as he possibly can. That makes sense.





xris wrote:
It has been blatantly obvious by your American mindset,
Yes! I fly my own colors.



xris wrote:
it has shown its capacity to interfere and manipulate its politics on a world
that has grown tired of your certainties in capitalism.
1. I deny that, and 2. I don 't give a rat 's ass
qua whether it is tired or not. I only care whether I am tired.



xris wrote:
Don't confuse free trade with your example of capitalism,
a country that has more trade restrictions than any in the free world.
I 'm not in the mood to argue tarriffs; off topic, anyway.



xris wrote:
That's not free trade its a bastardisation of capitalism.
You have less freedom than us in reality
Less freedom of self defense?? Ask farmer Tony Martin about that.



xris wrote:
this mirage you admire is for a new colony where you killed others to get what you wanted
and dam the others freedom to keep his land.
The Indians were nomads, not claiming title to land.




xris wrote:
Guns were licensed in the 1920s
England was FREE before then. The English used to take pride in that.




xris wrote:
and hand guns made illegal in the 1990s
nothing to do with the introduction of a socialist government, was it?
It WAS!
Socialism is based upon the docile submission of your subjects, held in subjection to the collective,
as distinct from the Individualism of personal DIGNITY & AUTONOMY.
Socialism is degradation of personal dignity.

I am very lucky not to be an Englishman.
If my uncle did not have a quarrel in 1912 with his father (my grandfather)
over English table manners, I 'd have been an Englishman.
That 's a horrible thought.




xris wrote:
You still will not accept that you kill more of your fellow citizens, usually close relative,
than the proportional death toll in Iraq.
True; I do not accept such nonsense.




xris wrote:
..Guns kill
Thay BETTER do that, or we 'll throw them in the garbage and get better guns.
Mine were selected for maximum stopping power.
When I was 8, I began carrying a .38 caliber revolver.
It took several years before I realized that its stopping power
was less than optimal (without a head shot) and I upgraded to a .44 special,
loaded with hollowpointed slugs, to maximize stopping power.





xris wrote:
the disadvantages outweigh any macho image you like to display.
Yes; the disadvantages to violent predators, who find their victims killing them.




xris wrote:
The historic reasoning behind guns in America was
to defend yourself from a hostile native trying to get back the lands you stole, with a bow and arrow..
We did not steal anything with a bow and arrow.
In any case, as I have ALREADY pointed out,
neither here, nor in England, were there any police
until the 1800s; everyone was expected to defend himself
and he needed the means to DO it.
Being unarmed was considered indecent,
and it was ofen illegal to go around unarmed.






xris wrote:
Nothing to do with over powering a government that was democratically elected
and could be impeached without he need of a silly hand gun tucked under your bed.
U demonstrate your ignorance of history. In arguing for ratification
of the US Constitution in the Federalist Papers, it was argued that
the citizens coud easily remove government, in that thay were
well armed and possessed much more power than government.





David
xris
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2010 11:32 am
@OmSigDAVID,
You have no idea about the closure act that forced labour into sweat shops and children down mines.The expulsion of the crofters from their small holdings into certain starvation. Children working fifteen hours a day and dying in their teens, brick running. Stealing a sheep because your family were dying , transported across the world as a slave.Countless thousands transported to feed the capitalist machine. Thousands died because of starvation and the lucky ones escaped to America. Not to seek freedom from restrictive government control but to escape the unrestricted torture of uncontrolled capitalism. Young girls with no work forced into prostitution. Dock workers paid less than the price of a loaf of bread for a days work...No, I know nothing of my history...My family lived through it and suffered from it. Socialism is no thief, it protects and defends those unable to bare the pain of capitalism. It has more christian principles than any fool who claims Christ his saviour but lets the poor starve. You explain your ignorance, quite well when you say, tuff, it describes you and you ignorance. I could not have begged you to admit it but you did it with pride, the pride of arrogance.

You live by jungle rules and its consequences and it tells me you what you are what you stand for and your colours are stained in the blood of the red skins you exploited and killed in the name of freedom. It explains why your so called freedom from England represented continuous exploitation of Blacks Chinese and Indians..Yes be proud be very proud. Yes ignore the fact that your pretence at wanting free trade only goes as far as the borders of America. Convenient capitalism , as long as we manipulate the market and restrict it at our pleasure...socialism is the future your greedy little grabbing fingers are going to get burnt. I stand by my social responsibilities and your silly little pop gun is your only friend. The police are here, here for more than century, whats your reasoning to keep your silly little phallic symbol, bigger and better is it? O what a big man you are. Trying getting Obama out with your pop gun.. Im so glad your extreme views have been exported, you just stay where you are, please...
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2010 11:43 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
Everyone shoud use the laws of Nature to exploit n control as well as he possibly can. That makes sense.


Does the combination of people to defeat a despot come under your "laws of Nature"?

Who do you think should be allowed to vote?

Your simplistic nostrums are ridiculous Dave. Unless you think anarchy wonderful. That would be a very odd thing for a lawyer to think. You just set aside all laws in the service of those of Nature.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2010 11:51 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
Less freedom of self defense?? Ask farmer Tony Martin about that.


Anybody who uses a singular incident to make a general point is flat-out stupid.

If the policemen in New Orleans are found guilty do we disband the Police force?

Ask the govenor of the prison Mr Martin was held in about the matter. Ask the police who prosecuted him, the lawyer who conducted the prosecution, the jury who found him guilty, the judge who sentenced him, the Home Secretary who presided over the matter and The Queen in whose gracious name it all took place.

You should try connecting things up Dave. A butterfly can flit from one attractive colour to another as the whim takes it.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2010 12:04 pm
@xris,
xris wrote:
You have no idea about the closure act that forced labour into sweat shops and children down mines.
I thawt thay applied for jobs; from your post, I guess thay were kidnapped.



xris wrote:
The expulsion of the crofters from their small holdings into certain starvation.
Children working fifteen hours a day and dying in their teens, brick running.
I think that thay were free to resign. Tell me, if I 'm rong.




xris wrote:
Stealing a sheep because your family were dying,
U r pretty GOOD at exagerating; maybe because u get so much practice.





xris wrote:
transported across the world as a slave.
A slave; yeah, right!



xris wrote:
Countless thousands transported to feed the capitalist machine.
Your plausibility is declining.





xris wrote:
Thousands died because of starvation
When n where ??




xris wrote:
and the lucky ones escaped to America.
I 'm glad my uncle did.




xris wrote:
Not to seek freedom from restrictive government control but
to escape the unrestricted torture of uncontrolled capitalism.
U read quite a lot of communist propaganda, huh ?





xris wrote:
Young girls with no work forced into prostitution.
Dock workers paid less than the price of a loaf of bread for a days work...
No, I know nothing of my history...
I suspected as much.



xris wrote:
My family lived through it and suffered from it. Socialism is no thief,
it protects and defends those unable to bare the pain of capitalism.
Religion is off topic (and "bare" means uncovered).



xris wrote:
It has more christian principles than any fool who claims Christ his saviour but lets the poor starve.
Will u please stop beating the drum about religion; this topic is not about that.




xris wrote:
You explain your ignorance, quite well when you say, tuff, it describes you and you ignorance.
I could not have begged you to admit it but you did it with pride, the pride of arrogance.
True.





xris wrote:
You live by jungle rules
Yes; the laws of Nature.



xris wrote:
and its consequences and it tells me you what you are what you stand for and your colours are stained in the blood of the red skins you exploited and killed in the name of freedom. It explains why your so called freedom from England represented continuous exploitation of Blacks Chinese and Indians..Yes be proud be very proud.
OK; I 'll start on that this afternoon.





xris wrote:
Yes ignore the fact that your pretence at wanting free trade only goes as far as the borders of America.
Convenient capitalism, as long as we manipulate the market and restrict it at our pleasure.
AGAIN, with the tarriffs; that is OFF TOPIC.



xris wrote:
..socialism is the future your greedy little grabbing fingers are going to get burnt.
I stand by my social responsibilities
I have none; I live in freedom. Capitalist freedom!



xris wrote:
and your silly little pop gun is your only friend.
My ONLY one ??
U have COUNTED my friends??
Thay will not be at dinner tonite ??




xris wrote:
The police are here, here for more than century, whats your reasoning to keep your silly little phallic symbol,
bigger and better is it?
When seconds count, the police are minutes away;
or hours away? or a few days later ?
When I was taking gunfire, there were no police around.
I was alone, except for my .44 caliber stainless steel mirror friend, who was all that I needed.







xris wrote:
O what a big man you are.
closer to average



xris wrote:
Trying getting Obama out with your pop gun..
No; that is yet more of your active imagination, with which this post is fraught.





xris wrote:
Im so glad your extreme views have been exported, you just stay where you are, please...
OK. I kinda like it here.





David
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2010 12:04 pm
@xris,
Quote:
You have no idea about the closure act that forced labour into sweat shops and children down mines.The expulsion of the crofters from their small holdings into certain starvation. Children working fifteen hours a day and dying in their teens, brick running. Stealing a sheep because your family were dying , transported across the world as a slave.Countless thousands transported to feed the capitalist machine. Thousands died because of starvation and the lucky ones escaped to America. Not to seek freedom from restrictive government control but to escape the unrestricted torture of uncontrolled capitalism. Young girls with no work forced into prostitution. Dock workers paid less than the price of a loaf of bread for a days work...No, I know nothing of my history...My family lived through it and suffered from it. Socialism is no thief, it protects and defends those unable to bare the pain of capitalism. It has more christian principles than any fool who claims Christ his saviour but lets the poor starve. You explain your ignorance, quite well when you say, tuff, it describes you and you ignorance. I could not have begged you to admit it but you did it with pride, the pride of arrogance.

You live by jungle rules and its consequences and it tells me you what you are what you stand for and your colours are stained in the blood of the red skins you exploited and killed in the name of freedom. It explains why your so called freedom from England represented continuous exploitation of Blacks Chinese and Indians..Yes be proud be very proud. Yes ignore the fact that your pretence at wanting free trade only goes as far as the borders of America. Convenient capitalism , as long as we manipulate the market and restrict it at our pleasure...socialism is the future your greedy little grabbing fingers are going to get burnt. I stand by my social responsibilities ...


This is very interesting and effectively descriptive. I think it's true - not about David specifically necessarily - I'll let him make that self-judgment - but in general.

(I didn't include the stuff about the guns because I do think that IS more specific and takes away from the tone of the piece).

Anyway - I enjoyed reading this. Thank you for posting it.

spendius
 
  2  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2010 12:18 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
England was FREE before then. The English used to take pride in that.


Looking for an Englishman who would prefer the freedom "before" to that now is likely to be less rewarding than looking for a needle in Texas.

You are confusing the word "freedom" with the thing itself. No doubt it makes you popular to speak in the name of freedom. It does sound good I must admit.

It's a load of bollocks though. Real freedom and civilisation are in counterpoise mode. We exchange amounts of freedom in return for amounts of civilisation and politics is the fulcrum.

And the Fire Brigade rushing to your aid are hardly expected to exploit the laws of Nature to "exploit and control as well as they can". They would leave you to fry if they did that and get a good lawyer.

BTW--The laws of nature operated, they say, for some hundreds of millions of years and nothing ever produced a hand-gun until our civilisation got going.

You're a child of civilisation in everything you do and say and your talk of freedom is mere pompous posturing. You would soon be on the blower to the emergency services if (fill in your own emergency) and they won't be available if everyone acted according to the laws of nature. You would be free to rape though. And if you were all the girls would carry guns and imagine the allotment committee in heated dispute over the Best Marrow Prize in such circumstances.

0 Replies
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2010 12:30 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
I honestly dont think there is anything of value worth replying to. You have become a vaudeville outdated comic act , rather than a deserving reason to debate.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2010 12:51 pm
@aidan,
Thanks. I dont think many Americans are aware of why or how politics developed in Europe, especially England. The British shied away from outright revolution but it came very close . Many see England as the great oppressor of its empires citizens . The fact is, the poor suffered just as badly in England as any of its conquered countries. The mentality that cared little for its vanquished, acted in much the same way at home. Child labour and child prostitution was ignored or even encouraged. This veneer of respectability the Victorians maintained, hid the truth . If it was not for such heroes as Charles Dickens it would have stayed hidden. My family lived in the slums of the east end of London in Victorian times and through spoken stories I have learnt why and how unrestricted capitalism will degrade its proponents and its victims. The colour of the socialist flag is only red for one reason. Thankfully we have learnt to be pragmatic in our politics , we have avoided the extremes expressed by certain capitalists and the horrors of revolutionary communism.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2010 01:02 pm
@xris,
It is a waste of time I suppose xris but the lad seems to have a need to let off steam and while he's letting it off at us on A2K he's pretty harmless. He might be addressing a more influential audience. A mob say.

It's easy done. We do a version in the pub from time to time. Scrap all traffic laws. Against the laws of nature, if you leave out ants. Let the motorists fend for themselves. Leave the accidents to burn. Somebody will weigh the metal in at the scrapyard. Try the boots on. They'll work a system out. What sort of system? Oh --they'll vote in somebody who brings back traffic laws: the laws of nature notwithstanding. Would that be a law of nature?

Maybe only us and ants have traffic laws. Birds have radar. Whales have sat-nav.

Rebecca-you could write a nice essay about man trying to imitate nature using his brains because his physique is so hopeless. Cartoonists use Tiger chases man to point it up.

OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2010 01:05 pm
@xris,
xris wrote:
I honestly dont think there is anything of value worth replying to.
You have become a vaudeville outdated comic act , rather than a deserving reason to debate.
Then don 't reply.
0 Replies
 
 

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