Frank, in my observation people always go all pious and weepy about that which they are most apt to reject in their day to day lives (though they'd never admit it). "As-if" Christianity is rife in the land with low-end Christians clinging to Jesus all the more even as they are rejecting his teachings. This kind of self-delusion (or straightforward hypocrisy or "as-if"ism beams out from the current administration, with its compassionate conservativism, clear skies, healthy forests, and all this bullshit which they don't even want to live up to.
BillW wrote : " religion and politicals always cause great problems. Unfortunately, we are periously close to religion being all powerful once again. " just look at the election that took place in northern ireland. isn't it wonderful that "two groups of christians" living in the the same space/country are not even willing to talk to each other ? i don't know if i should be sad or mad . when will the shooting, kneecapping etc. start again ? all in the name of christianity ? SHUDDER ! hbg
Yeah, ironic and pathetic.
Jesus would be crucified again by the Neo con Fascists because his teachings are in direct oppositon with their actions. Also, does anyone really think that Jesus would think that a billion dollar institution that hordes art treasures and wealth represents his teachings? Onward Christian soldiers, yeah right!!! It's all sanctamonious,hypocritical crap. The Church was set up as another means to control people and usurpe their resources, property and their very lives; an effective means because the after life was at steak. Talk about "hearts and minds".
The statement of GW's that he follows the philosophy of Jesus makes me wretch.
And there, again, I think we have the psychological mechanisms the article described in action - Neo-Con Fascists is, in my view, one of those ritualized hate incantations that infect the political process. I may well be wrong, of course, but I would want solid and reasoned evidence that they were actually fascists before placing such a phrase in my chant book.
One of the things that disturbs me is the way in which political debate in the US is so polarized by so many - those of us who are not from the US have said, ad nauseum no doubt, how small the differences between "liberals" and conservatives" seem from afar - both slightly different brands of broadly conservative politics. But it seems many have placed each other in the non-human camp, merely based on these differences - a mechanism similar, I think, to what is happening re terror.
Has the virulence always been thus in the USA, between opposing parties? Is it a response to the rising radicalism of the conservative side? I am sure they would say vice versa, but I observe conservatising of the left in the US, not the reverse.
If it is new, what does it mean, I wonder, for the tenor of the country - the world???
it does not bode well deb.
As for the church, Pistoff - again I think you simplify and demonise.
It is many things - many very bad - some very good, I think. But it is complex - I do not think you can reduce things to such simplistic phrases - and I think, again, that doing so is illustrating the very mechanisms that we have been discussing.
What do others think?
I notice, in my own country by the way, a real need to have someone to hate, to blame - whether it be "the politicians", the unions, the teachers, the Asians - whatever. If challenged on one hatee, many people, I note, just swap to the next group. I am very aware of this mechanism in myself.
IS it new, though, Dys? The sixties, eg, was equally full of mindless sloganeering...
Most social movements have done it - including the ones I hold dearest. I have done it -
I'm not at all sure it is new, dlowen. Maybe it's just that we now have this wonderfully anonomyous medium that lets us fully express ourselves without permenantly alienating our friends and associates.
Hmmm - you mean people would not speak thus directly to each other?
They WRITE it and say it other places than the net, though, Roger.
The sloganeering and political assault began with the right, Dlowan, most notably in the hands (mouths!) of talk show hosts friendly with the right wing of the Republican Party a decade or more ago -- a no-holds-barred assault on dangerous liberalism, as they saw it.
It had much of the same flavor and self-justifications as those use during our infamous "McCarthy Era" when the internal threat from organized communism was enormously inflated to create political careers. It took the left a long time to fight back, but now it has begun to do so.
The left was not reverential about Reagan, which inflamed the right -- Reagan's supporters saw the Berlin Wall fall while we saw the atrocities in Central America and the cover-ups increase. The right gripes, with some justification, "but you guys laugh at us, mock us" and they are correct. Now some of their highest paid and most effective public spokesman ridicule the left and are outraged at getting (finally!) a reponse.
It's a matter of style, or was until it got out of hand. There is now a significant split in the Republican Party which may signal a decline (in fact one of their own wrote an editorial today bemoaning this). At the same time there is a split in the Democratic Party, isolating the slick, centrist group from many voters. That will help change things, too. And something else which is noticeable -- many Americans are now reaching out to like-minded liberals and "peace and justice" people outside of this country rather than continuing a verbal battle with what they (and I) consider is a sick isolationism within our borders.
Fascists?
Study the Patriot Act and the forthcoming Patriot 11. Also, the Free Speech Zone. The secrecy of the White House. The statements that any critizism of the Govt. is unpatriotic. Focus on the misrepresentation and outright lies of the present regime that caters to the special interest while degrading the envirnment and the poor. Find out about the new overt Death Squads.
Re: The Church. Tell me that Jesus would be pleased with the Catholic and Protestant wealthy churches and the hypocrosy of their words in contrast to their actions.Tell me that he would be pleased with the people that say that they follow his teachings while their actions are the opposite.
I am not in the frame of mind of hating just to find some group to hate. I happen to believe in the precepts of what America is suppossed to stand for not what the present Govt. and Congress is shaping America into.
Am I Pissed Off? Damn right, I am!!!!
Hmm - I cannot comment on when it began, Tartarin - I observe it to be pretty equal right here and now.
can you tell me more about what you mean by the 'reaching-out'?
We were enormously grateful here, a few years ago, when the US stevedoring unions "reached out" to our people, by refusing to receive ships loaded by overseas workers brought in with armed, balaclava-ed guards who locked the wharfies out. The guards were trained with federal Liberal (read conservative) government assistance, and they helped the companies bring in the workers - it was a concerted government/Patrick's (a particular) company to de-unionize the wharves.
It failed. In the courts. But your folk sure helped.
i wil respond to you later, Pistoff - I am going out.
Information helps
http://www.publicintegrity.org/dtaweb/report.asp?ReportID=502&L1=10&L2=10&L3=0&L4=0&L5=0
If anyone isn't a bit worried about freedom in the USA after reading this they are definetly a dumbass.
pistoff wrote : "Re: The Church. Tell me that Jesus would be pleased with the Catholic and Protestant wealthy churches and the hypocrosy of their words in contrast to their actions.Tell me that he would be pleased with the people that say that they follow his teachings while their actions are the opposite. "
is it o.k.to say : AMEN, BROTHER ? i would say that there some decent churchmembers around; unfortunately they get drowned out by the screamers - and they get most of the attention. i guess many people think if someone else just screams and shouts loud enough, he must surely be right. somewhere i heard it said : it is not important that we provide correct information, it is important that we repeat whatever information it is long enough, so that people will believe it is correct. hbg
Quote:If anyone isn't a bit worried about freedom in the USA after reading this they are definetly a dumbass.
'
Comments like this pretty much invalidate any valid points you make.
from my perspective the following incident encapsulates the polarized left and right of america. I have to admit my grandfather was one of the "wobblies" ie union organizers at Ludlow when this took place:
Quote:The date April 20, 1914 will forever be a day of infamy for American workers. On that day, 20 innocent men, women and children were killed
in the Ludlow Massacre. The coal miners in Colorado and other western states had been trying to join the UMWA for many years. They were
bitterly opposed by the coal operators, led by the Colorado Fuel and Iron Company.
Quote:Upon striking, the miners and their families had been evicted from their company-owned houses and had set up a tent colony on public property. The massacre occurred in a carefully planned attack on the tent colony by Colorado militiamen, coal company guards, and thugs hired as private detectives and strike breakers. They shot and burned to death 20 people, including a dozen women and small children. Later investigations revealed that kerosine had intentionally been poured on the tents to set them ablaze. The miners had dug foxholes in the tents so the women and children could avoid the bullets that randomly were
shot through the tent colony by company thugs. The women and children
Quote:were found huddled together at the bottoms of their tents.
The Baldwin Felts Detective Agency had been brought in to suppress the Colorado miners. They brought with them an armored car mounted with
a machine gun--the Death Special-- that roamed the area spraying bullets. The day of the massacre, the miners were celebrating Greek
Easter. At 10:00 AM the militia ringed the camp and began firing into the tents upon a signal from the commander, Lt. Karl E. Lindenfelter. Not one
of the perpetrators of the slaughter were ever punished, but scores of miners and their leaders were arrested and black-balled from the coal
industry.
.A monument erected by the UMWA stands today in Ludlow, Colorado in remembrance of the brave and innocent souls who died for freedom and
human dignity.
Was this the incident Dashiell Hammett used as inspiration for "Red Harvest?"
damn hobit, I have no idea having never read Hammett, perhaps i should look into that.
