1
   

US Health care compared to Other Countries

 
 
wvpeach
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Oct, 2007 01:03 pm
@mlurp,
mlurp even with my glasses on I can not read this . Its downsized and blurry or something.

Do you have another copy? If not please type it in and I'll be glad to read it.


mlurp;39937 wrote:
Oh so right. I posted this on another thread. Now with your reply I can also post this here. Look at it and see if all haven't already been put in place. You have stated some of it in this thread and else where.
But it isn't the RED's doing it. It is our own government or the elite Machiavellians behind it.
0 Replies
 
Silverchild79
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Oct, 2007 03:09 pm
@wvpeach,
wvpeach;39956 wrote:
The moral stance is that all people get health care . There is just no way around that reality.


and I don't feel there's any morality in entitlement

what happens to people who smoke and use government healthcare when they get lung cancer. What about people who have heart attacks when they new they should diet and exercise?

I'm personally against abortion (even though I think it should be legal), I don't think it's fair to use my tax dollars for abortion.

What will our children feel they are entitled to, free college education regardless of their highschool marks? Free housing?

What about in Europe where doctors started conducting hormone theropy on a 12 year old boy who wanted to be a girl?



I'd rather not go down that road, but I can tell you my tax dollars will never go to any of these causes
scooby-doo cv
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Oct, 2007 03:16 pm
@Silverchild79,
Silverchild79;39949 wrote:
It's funny that Europe's health care systems are so much better then our own but yet people come from Europe to America to have surgery

why, because free market medial care encourages the most advanced science

if we had government health care it would be the government who deiced if and when you get that kidney transplant you need to save your life. Do you want government bureaucracy making that decision for you?


How much is it for a kidney transplant in the US ?
0 Replies
 
Silverchild79
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Oct, 2007 03:56 pm
@wvpeach,
dunno, I have two of them. Since I worked hard & used my time in the military to acquire an education I have health insurance so it isn't a real issue for me.

see that's the thing, I do deserve coverage because I earn it, everyday

Medical care is a service, people aren't entitled to service, they purchase it. We have some programs in effect now, to help poor mothers and infant children, and others below the poverty line receive basic health care. That's a good thing, but full on health care provided to everybody is a terrible idea, because it benefits those who don't work and taxes those who do. I'm not talking the rich, I mean every worker.

We had a bill that would tax auto insurance to keep the roads up, it failed because it was a bad idea. You see taxing auto insurance only effects those responsible enough to carry auto insurance, those who don't put forth the effort benefit but never contributed. It's the same with health care, you're allowing sympathy to interfere with sound logic.
wvpeach
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Oct, 2007 09:41 pm
@Silverchild79,
You are focusing on evil and nothing else.

How about the woman who has just lost her job and comes down with breat cancer?

How about the man who wakes up after a accident to learn he will need extensive surgery for his broken bones and his employer fired him while he was alseep?

How about all the 55plus people who have seen their factories shut down and now do not have insurance and cannot get another job?

How about the mentally ill?

You are saying ..... Me..... me ..... me without worrying about anybody else and the very real situations that bring people down and in need of help in this life.

I don't even want to guess as to if you call yourself a follower of Christ. By your attitude I would assume not.

[SIZE="4"] Oh my , oh my, .... now because I disagreed with you silverchild and your I have mine , so who cares if other people suffer attitude , are you going to ban me?[/SIZE]... So be it!... ban away!


Silverchild79;39991 wrote:
and I don't feel there's any morality in entitlement

what happens to people who smoke and use government healthcare when they get lung cancer. What about people who have heart attacks when they new they should diet and exercise?

I'm personally against abortion (even though I think it should be legal), I don't think it's fair to use my tax dollars for abortion.

What will our children feel they are entitled to, free college education regardless of their highschool marks? Free housing?

What about in Europe where doctors started conducting hormone theropy on a 12 year old boy who wanted to be a girl?

* Boy Becomes The Worlds Youngest Transexual At Age 12*by*Breaking News,Latest news & Headlines -NLAQ.com

I'd rather not go down that road, but I can tell you my tax dollars will never go to any of these causes
Silverchild79
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Oct, 2007 11:39 pm
@wvpeach,
umm, no, so long as you aren't issuing personal attacks I could really care

I'm not saying "me me me"

I'm saying "What I do for me should benefit me", it isn't so terrible to think that should apply to income as well.

The problem is when we created welfare we also created the welfare mom. The drawback to government social charities is that this happens. Government health care will spawn it's own form of the welfare mom and I don't think the American worker should foot the bill for a guy who refused to eat anything other then garbage all his life and now wants the government to buy him a triple bypass. Not gonna happen, if we are to provide this service on the government dime, the preverbial holes must be patched first, else they'll never be attended.

That's why I favor basic health care services (checkups, education, minor RX) for those below the poverty line, but would stop short and full blown healthcare.

Imagine Social Security was a barrel, into it you pored water which represents social security. But the barrel has a problem, it leaks through several holes which weren't anticipated, this represents those who use the system to pad their quality of life at the expense of the tax payer. Now you have another quantity of fluid to add to the barrel (free health care), and you want it in the barrel where it will do the most good. Do you patch the barrel first or just poor away? I would patch, and patch we should before we raise income taxes by 15% so that the homeless can receive Viagra.
scooby-doo cv
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Oct, 2007 09:11 am
@Silverchild79,
Silverchild79;39996 wrote:
dunno, I have two of them. Since I worked hard & used my time in the military to acquire an education I have health insurance so it isn't a real issue for me.

see that's the thing, I do deserve coverage because I earn it, everyday

Medical care is a service, people aren't entitled to service, they purchase it. We have some programs in effect now, to help poor mothers and infant children, and others below the poverty line receive basic health care. That's a good thing, but full on health care provided to everybody is a terrible idea, because it benefits those who don't work and taxes those who do. I'm not talking the rich, I mean every worker.

We had a bill that would tax auto insurance to keep the roads up, it failed because it was a bad idea. You see taxing auto insurance only effects those responsible enough to carry auto insurance, those who don't put forth the effort benefit but never contributed. It's the same with health care, you're allowing sympathy to interfere with sound logic.


im not allowing sympathy to interfere with sound logic,i believe in a NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE :thumbup:
0 Replies
 
scooby-doo cv
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Oct, 2007 09:12 am
@wvpeach,
wvpeach;40019 wrote:
You are focusing on evil and nothing else.

How about the woman who has just lost her job and comes down with breat cancer?

How about the man who wakes up after a accident to learn he will need extensive surgery for his broken bones and his employer fired him while he was alseep?

How about all the 55plus people who have seen their factories shut down and now do not have insurance and cannot get another job?

How about the mentally ill?

You are saying ..... Me..... me ..... me without worrying about anybody else and the very real situations that bring people down and in need of help in this life.

I don't even want to guess as to if you call yourself a follower of Christ. By your attitude I would assume not.

[SIZE="4"] Oh my , oh my, .... now because I disagreed with you silverchild and your I have mine , so who cares if other people suffer attitude , are you going to ban me?[/SIZE]... So be it!... ban away!


HE DONT GIVE A **** AS LONG AS HE IS OK :beat:
tvsej
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Oct, 2007 10:16 am
@Silverchild79,
Silverchild79;39949 wrote:
It's funny that Europe's health care systems are so much better then our own but yet people come from Europe to America to have surgery

why, because free market medial care encourages the most advanced science

if we had government health care it would be the government who deiced if and when you get that kidney transplant you need to save your life. Do you want government bureaucracy making that decision for you?


Our free market provides higher grants for study, we have more money dedicated to that than any other country. That is as far as is goes though.

The leading medical break throughs and top technology comes from Germany, Schweiz, and France. The most advanced medical procedures are done here, alot of whealthy Americans come here, especially for cancer treatment.
They also have the H5N1 virus immunization available for every citizen in Germany in the event of pandomony. America has only enough for our gov. officials, soldiers, and medical personel to stay in place and work the country while we all die. When the bird flu hits USA and it will, it will wipe out millions.
So much for all that advanced study. Robert-Koch Institute in Germany has developed the immunization for the H5N1 virus. Not us.

The reason Europeans come to America for certain operations is because it is an illegal procedure here in Europe for lack of testing and findings. To soon to say it is a safe procedure. USA doesn't care if you can pay the Dr. your are just a guinepig for them.

As for a kidney transplant or any other transplant operation gov. healthcare can't change a thing if there are no organs available to transplant. There is a long list of people waiting all over the world. If the organs are there you will get them in the order received and no other way except stollen.
If you give your kidney to your child it will be placed immediatly to save the childs life, Regardless.
wvpeach
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Oct, 2007 08:14 pm
@Silverchild79,
You almost had me agreeing with you till you said you'd not give the guy who ate garbage a bypass. So are we going to pick and choose who has been naughty and who has been nice?

I believe in bare bones charity programs. I would like to see people who need government housing and are able to work , put in sterile cubicle type temporary housing complete with military simplistic furnishing and they are not allowed to change it. They are not allowed to hang pictures on the walls or decorate . They have to be up and helping to clean the halls and communal areas at 8:am everyday. TV only allowed in common areas that sort of thing. I think this might change these peoples minds and get them off their lazy butts.

But for the truly needy disabled or elderly its a whole different ball game.

And if we had it we cannot deny cancer treatments to a person because their genetic history predisposes them to cancer. Nor could we deny the junk food eater who has a heart attack.


Silverchild79;40034 wrote:
umm, no, so long as you aren't issuing personal attacks I could really care

I'm not saying "me me me"

I'm saying "What I do for me should benefit me", it isn't so terrible to think that should apply to income as well.

The problem is when we created welfare we also created the welfare mom. The drawback to government social charities is that this happens. Government health care will spawn it's own form of the welfare mom and I don't think the American worker should foot the bill for a guy who refused to eat anything other then garbage all his life and now wants the government to buy him a triple bypass. Not gonna happen, if we are to provide this service on the government dime, the preverbial holes must be patched first, else they'll never be attended.

That's why I favor basic health care services (checkups, education, minor RX) for those below the poverty line, but would stop short and full blown healthcare.

Imagine Social Security was a barrel, into it you pored water which represents social security. But the barrel has a problem, it leaks through several holes which weren't anticipated, this represents those who use the system to pad their quality of life at the expense of the tax payer. Now you have another quantity of fluid to add to the barrel (free health care), and you want it in the barrel where it will do the most good. Do you patch the barrel first or just poor away? I would patch, and patch we should before we raise income taxes by 15% so that the homeless can receive Viagra.
wvpeach
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Oct, 2007 08:16 pm
@scooby-doo cv,
scooby-doo;40071 wrote:
HE DONT GIVE A **** AS LONG AS HE IS OK :beat:


I am definitely getting that impression. :dunno:
0 Replies
 
kmchugh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Oct, 2007 05:00 am
@wvpeach,
wvpeach;40176 wrote:
You almost had me agreeing with you till you said you'd not give the guy who ate garbage a bypass. So are we going to pick and choose who has been naughty and who has been nice?

I hate to bring this to your attention, Peach, but what you are talking about is rationing of healthcare. The fact is that no matter what we do with healthcare, that is exactly the direction we are heading. We simply will have to do so, for two essential reasons.

The first is the average American's inability to accept death as a natural conclusion to the life cycle. I see it almost every day. A geriatric patient, confined to a nursing home with Alzheimers and heart disease taken to the operating room for cardiac bypass surgery. Even the surgeon knows what he is doing is futile, but we do it because the family wishes it. And if we don't follow the family's wishes, rest assured we will hear from their lawyers.

The fact is that a huge proportion of our health care dollars are spent on people in their last two to three weeks of life. People with terminal conditions of every sort, put in ICU's, ventilated, in the end put through horrendous suffering before the inevitable end comes. The outcome will at best be delayed for a few days, but it will be the same. Why do we do this? Because families and patients demand it. "You have to do everything you can to keep granny alive, we love her so much!" Never mind that granny has metastatic cancer, Alzheimer's disease, heart disease, and is 83 years old. It is an unwise, and worse, inhumane use of resources.

The second reason is at least indirectly tied to the present social policies where medicine is concerned. Every physician knows that a patient over 65 years old is a paying patient. While medicare reimbursement may not be much, "not much" is still more than "none." I personally know orthopedic surgeons who mourn every geriatric patient who dies without some orthopedic appliance being buried with him or her. My own mother was such a patient. I described her above. 83, with heart disease, metastatic cancer, and Alzheimer's disease (that isn't all, it's just the major problems). She fell and broke her femur. The orthopod who consulted on the case told my family that the surgery to repair this fracture was "resident surgery." He also offered them the option of letting her "die of a broken leg." What he didn't tell them (I was not there at the time) was that even with the broken leg, she could be made quite comfortable, and allowed to pass peacefully. He also didn't tell them that given her medical condition, her chances of surviving more than a few days past the surgical correction were slim. So, my family, including at least as many medical professionals as yours, elected to have the surgery at the insistence of the orthopod.

I made it home just in time to tell my mother I loved her before she died. She died having suffered the pain not only of fracturing that bone, but also the pain of having a very expensive titanium rod inserted in that bone. It didn't need to be this way. But, the orthopod saw the opportunity to bill for one last procedure. He took it.
wvpeach
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Oct, 2007 07:54 am
@kmchugh,
kmchugh

You have my sympathies that the death of your mother didn't happen with more dignity and peace.

As a society it is a shame we are so afraid of death that we are willing to do anything to extend life a few days. But that is not generally the case.It happens , but is increasingly being rejected.

For instance if you can get other doctors to say they would not have operated on your mom, in her last days of life, you may have a good shot ar suing that Doc for extreme emotional distress. Long haul to win , but it could be done. Short of that complain to the hospital the surgery was done at about emotional distress to the family and keep mentioning the fact that this doctor wasted money operating on your mom. You are right medicare doesn't pay much to docs but it pays even less to the hospitals. If you all write letters and complain loud enough, the hospital will get on this doctor for doing a surgery that wasted resources and distressed the family. At the very least you and your family could help make sure this doc thinks twice before he does that to the next family. I'd go for it , in honor of your mothers memory .

Doctors from my old home town in OHIO were increasingly dropping medicare patients . A lot dropped medicare and medicaid patients of any kind after 2004 because the rates were cut, not ajusted for inflation as they had always been. I worked advertising for a paper at the time and most Doc and hospitals for three counties around ran some ads with me regularly. I got calls from the doctors office managers on a on going basis after 2004 telling me to drop medicare and medicaid patients off their next ad that they werephasing them out. I have not checked that out in my new home town. But I would say you will increasingly see doctors not accepting the federal patients. Unless congress over turns the Bush cuts that is. I am sure they will eventually. Hopefully.

I have for many years been a Power of Attorney for seniors in nursing homes who have no family. Believe me nursing homes want to keep immobile , not to hard to care for seniors alive. Because that is like having inventory on the shelf that is not eating any money. They love it when they go almost comatose because then they are low maintenance. They will go to any lengths if allowed and in the case of no living will they will tube feed them while they throw it up for months to keep the money rolling in.

[SIZE="5"] BUT[/SIZE]........[SIZE="5"] A BIG BUT[/SIZE]

Anybody who is familiar with health care will tell you that seniors are regularly let go in hospitals . I have personally heard things from lots of doctors when nurses expressed a concern that a patient wouldn't eat, That the patient at 83 had lived long enough don't worry about it. And while your mother was shoved into surgery by a unethical doc who must have been very low rate , most families are told on a regular basis all the options for their loved one including just keeping them comfortable till they pass. I see it with my own eyes all the time. And I believe this is the way it should be done. Patients families know their loved ones. They know if that loved one should go on to further treatment or not.
0 Replies
 
tvsej
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Oct, 2007 12:20 pm
@mlurp,
mlurp;39937 wrote:
Oh so right. I posted this on another thread. Now with your reply I can also post this here. Look at it and see if all haven't already been put in place. You have stated some of it in this thread and else where.
But it isn't the RED's doing it. It is our own government or the elite Machiavellians behind it.


Wow! I missed this one Mlurp, I am seeing our gov. as communist, our media in all forms is controlled and spoon fed to us. We all know who runs the newspapers and Hollywood films don't we? Think hard if you are not sure, they have befriended the black Americans for their own dirty work.

I talk about the degridation(spell) of our society from some of the black community who has a huge hold on all youth today regardless of color around the world. The music and disrespect is disgusting and wrong for our young people the message is all bad, sex, violence, bad language ,improper english and new made up words. It is taking us right were they want us to be. Most of us are sleeping and don't see what is happening before our eyes. We are willing to give up so much in the name of Terror, it is just a game of control. We have allowed it to go to far.
wvpeach
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Oct, 2007 12:31 pm
@tvsej,
wow TV that is why forums like this are good.

You have just pointed out stuff I didn't even consider.


tvsej;40252 wrote:
Wow! I missed this one Mlurp, I am seeing our gov. as communist, our media in all forms is controlled and spoon fed to us. We all know who runs the newspapers and Hollywood films don't we? Think hard if you are not sure, they have befriended the black Americans for their own dirty work.

I talk about the degridation(spell) of our society from some of the black community who has a huge hold on all youth today regardless of color around the world. The music and disrespect is disgusting and wrong for our young people the message is all bad, sex, violence, bad language ,improper english and new made up words. It is taking us right were they want us to be. Most of us are sleeping and don't see what is happening before our eyes. We are willing to give up so much in the name of Terror, it is just a game of control. We have allowed it to go to far.
Silverchild79
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Oct, 2007 12:51 pm
@wvpeach,
I do care, I care greatly that the American working family will be asked to pay the healthcare bills of total strangers via taxes before they pay for their own coverage. I care about saving families who cannot afford the raise in income tax while buying private health insurance from resorting to what will be substandard government care. Mostly, I care about preserving the ideal that we are a free market society, one where you do for self, pull yourself up by your own bootstraps. We do not expect the government to be our parents and provide for us. and we do not bow to socialism when we face challenges as a country.
wvpeach
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Oct, 2007 02:53 pm
@Silverchild79,
I care too silverchild and there are ways to offer everybody coverage without the federal government being involved.

The insurance industry has proven it works. Risk versus usage is how they make money. They know full well that people will pay in money in premiums and never use the care they paid for. That is how insurance companies make money. I think we can do what the insurance companies do for everybody in the US, and as a added bonus it should lower the premiums those with insurance are currently paying. Because if every American was paying a premium that would lower the premiums for everybody.
Failing that we can look at what every other country in the world has done and take what works and discard what doesn't from their national health care.

That way silverchild people who find themselves recently out of a job , because it moved to Guatemala , will not die needlessly because they come down with cancer before they find another job with insurance. That is all I really care about.
0 Replies
 
tvsej
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Oct, 2007 02:48 am
@wvpeach,
wvpeach;40255 wrote:
wow TV that is why forums like this are good.

You have just pointed out stuff I didn't even consider.


Thanks wvpeach and by the way you look great!
0 Replies
 
scooby-doo cv
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Oct, 2007 04:07 am
@Silverchild79,
Silverchild79;40261 wrote:
I do care, I care greatly that the American working family will be asked to pay the healthcare bills of total strangers via taxes before they pay for their own coverage. I care about saving families who cannot afford the raise in income tax while buying private health insurance from resorting to what will be substandard government care. Mostly, I care about preserving the ideal that we are a free market society, one where you do for self, pull yourself up by your own bootstraps. We do not expect the government to be our parents and provide for us. and we do not bow to socialism when we face challenges as a country.


you think having a National Health Service as bowing to socialism ?
0 Replies
 
mlurp
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Oct, 2007 05:33 pm
@tvsej,
Watch Anderson Cooper tonight. He is going to talk about transplants. There are advailable organs and this will shock you.

tvsej;40084 wrote:
Our free market provides higher grants for study, we have more money dedicated to that than any other country. That is as far as is goes though.

The leading medical break throughs and top technology comes from Germany, Schweiz, and France. The most advanced medical procedures are done here, alot of whealthy Americans come here, especially for cancer treatment.
They also have the H5N1 virus immunization available for every citizen in Germany in the event of pandomony. America has only enough for our gov. officials, soldiers, and medical personel to stay in place and work the country while we all die. When the bird flu hits USA and it will, it will wipe out millions.
So much for all that advanced study. Robert-Koch Institute in Germany has developed the immunization for the H5N1 virus. Not us.

The reason Europeans come to America for certain operations is because it is an illegal procedure here in Europe for lack of testing and findings. To soon to say it is a safe procedure. USA doesn't care if you can pay the Dr. your are just a guinepig for them.

As for a kidney transplant or any other transplant operation gov. healthcare can't change a thing if there are no organs available to transplant. There is a long list of people waiting all over the world. If the organs are there you will get them in the order received and no other way except stollen.
If you give your kidney to your child it will be placed immediatly to save the childs life, Regardless.
0 Replies
 
 

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