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Separation of Church and State

 
 
TrueAmerican
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jul, 2007 07:27 pm
@The Last Cathedral,
I'm going to reiterate what I said in another thread. This country was founded on the gospel of Jesus Christ. When the United States was created, it was created to break the chains of tyrrany from Great Britain. It was created in order to have religious freedom. So for all those people stuck inside their own box, the sole purpose of our founding fathers coming over to what is now the United States was to be able to worship how they please. They took those principles and created a government. They took Britain's government and changed what they saw as biblical violations and created the US Constitution. Today's government focuses more on political differences than the morals our country's foundation lie. Each session that congress holds, they open it up with a word of prayer. Congress are the law makers of this great land. So how can you honestly sit there and say our country can separate church and state, when our own congress supports church practices such as prayer during a government meeting?
rugonnacry
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jul, 2007 07:09 am
@TrueAmerican,
TrueAmerican;26709 wrote:
I'm going to reiterate what I said in another thread. This country was founded on the gospel of Jesus Christ. When the United States was created, it was created to break the chains of tyrrany from Great Britain. It was created in order to have religious freedom. So for all those people stuck inside their own box, the sole purpose of our founding fathers coming over to what is now the United States was to be able to worship how they please. They took those principles and created a government. They took Britain's government and changed what they saw as biblical violations and created the US Constitution. Today's government focuses more on political differences than the morals our country's foundation lie. Each session that congress holds, they open it up with a word of prayer. Congress are the law makers of this great land. So how can you honestly sit there and say our country can separate church and state, when our own congress supports church practices such as prayer during a government meeting?



I only had to read the first line. THERE IS NO Gospel of Jesuse Christ LOL not one cannonized anyway.


Which does bring up a good topic for another thread. "WHY DIDN'T JESUS EVER WRITE ANYTHING DOWN HIMSELF"
0 Replies
 
rugonnacry
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jul, 2007 07:12 am
@Reagaknight,
Reagaknight;26381 wrote:
Not the law or not in the Constitution? There's a difference.


ZING I have to read read all of this now.

To save time. No it is not Directly worded in the Constitution, However the Supreme court translates the Constitution as MEANING SEp of curch and state, so to keep the argument going, until SCOTUS reverses themselves It IS in the constitution
0 Replies
 
rugonnacry
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jul, 2007 07:15 am
@Drnaline,
Drnaline;26413 wrote:
Congress is the only body to make law. Show me where such a law exists? I don't want to see someones opinion on it, i'd like to see it writen down as a law and not an opinion of what Jefferson ment while talking to a baptist preacher. Our Constitution quotes that Congress is not allowed to make any law regarding religion. Which is exactly what sep of Church and State is trying to do, make a determination against religion. If your gonna use Jefferson words then use his exact words, not what you think they ment. That is what SCOTUS did.
I say again, There is not wording for sep of C and S in our Constitution and as far as i know or have ever seen, there is not law writen on the books, just an opinion. Of which is all SCOTUS is allowed to do, they do not make law. With this opinion they were attempting to make law, but everybody knows (including them), they can't do that.


Article 3 of your constitution read it word for word it tells you what SCOTUS is for and what powers it has and INTERPRETING LAW is one of those things. and Guess what THEY HAVE interpreted the constitution to say SEP of Church And State.

This is not MY opinin, this is the Constitution and The upreme Court

READ ARTICLE 3

(I swear doc I have posted article 3 all 4 times you have asked to show where SCOTUS has the authority)
0 Replies
 
Drnaline
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jul, 2007 07:32 am
@The Last Cathedral,
I've asked where in the Consitution is say Sep of C and S. You keep showing article 3 which says nothing of the sort? When i ask to see the law, you point to an opinion.

Quote:
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from presenting even occasional performances of devotion presented indeed legally where an Executive is the legal head of a national church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties."
Funny SCOTUS used this letter as reference and in that very letter what does it say(in bold)?

Edit: Would you give me an opinion on what Jefferson is saying to the baptist and then tell me how it can be taken out of context and used to creat a law that says "Sep of C and S?"
0 Replies
 
Reagaknight
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jul, 2007 08:32 am
@The Last Cathedral,
It doesn't matter at all because Jefferson had nothing to do with the Constitution.
TrueAmerican
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jul, 2007 08:36 am
@Reagaknight,
Reagaknight;26755 wrote:
It doesn't matter at all because Jefferson had nothing to do with the Constitution.


Thomas Jefferson believed you couldn't even call your self an american if you subvert the word of God. Open your eyes here. You can argue all day about opinions and what not, but the core truth is that our founding fathers were strong christians and believed in "The Church". How can you take the idea of keeping the Church and State united away when at one time it was our main principle?
0 Replies
 
Reagaknight
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jul, 2007 08:40 am
@The Last Cathedral,
Not disagreeing, just saying, Thomas Jefferson's interpretation amounts to 0 because he had nothing to do with the Constitution's writing.
0 Replies
 
Dmizer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jul, 2007 08:43 am
@The Last Cathedral,
I will agree that there was a Christian influence on the constitution. I have done some more reading on the subject and there is much to suggest that it was an influence. However, the issue at hand is the seperation of church and state. The founding fathers disagreed with each other on this particular subject as much as we disagree today. So I ask:
Which scenario provides the greatest oppurtunity to maintain religious freedom for all creeds and cultures?
A) A government who's laws and institutions are predominantly affiliated with a particular religion?
B) A government that observes a strict seperation between it's laws and institutions, and any particular religion?

When you go to answer, use the "walk a mile in someone elses shoes" thought process. Or in other words, an "open mind".
0 Replies
 
Reagaknight
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jul, 2007 10:13 am
@The Last Cathedral,
I see no problem with A, or changing it. It is who we are. We should celebrate that we have a deeply rooted Christian heritage. We should also celebrate our freedom of religion. The two go hand in hand, though. One Christian principle is that of free will. That is echoed in our Constitution.
0 Replies
 
rhopper3
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jul, 2007 06:01 pm
@The Last Cathedral,
is a good thing
0 Replies
 
TrueAmerican
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jul, 2007 06:53 pm
@The Last Cathedral,
I was talking about this issue with a guy at work today. He came up with the good point that we also came to this country to get rid of the religious freedoms though. Thus, the law states we can not "establish" a government for the entire country. He made a good point.
Drnaline
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jul, 2007 09:29 am
@TrueAmerican,
TrueAmerican;26816 wrote:
I was talking about this issue with a guy at work today. He came up with the good point that we also came to this country to get rid of the religious freedoms though. Thus, the law states we can not "establish" a government for the entire country. He made a good point.
Quote:
we also came to this country to get rid of the religious freedoms though.

Constitution says freedom of religion, not from.
0 Replies
 
Arterion
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jul, 2007 06:48 pm
@The Last Cathedral,
I just posted this in another thread, but I think it applies here, too:

The Treaty of Tripoli

US Treaty with Tripoli, 1796-1797

"Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..."

Authored by American diplomat Joel Barlow in 1796, the following treaty was sent to the floor of the Senate, June 7, 1797, where it was read aloud in its entirety and unanimously approved. John Adams, having seen the treaty, signed it and proudly proclaimed it to the Nation.

Further reading:
Does the 1796-97 Treaty with Tripoli Matter to Church/State Separation?

Quote:
Constitution says freedom of religion, not from.


This is squabbling over a preposition. Freedom of religion is the freedom to be as religious as we want to be, even if that's not at all.
0 Replies
 
Reagaknight
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jul, 2007 07:56 pm
@The Last Cathedral,
I think Volunteer already stated that this was empty rhetoric meant to appease Tripoli. No, it doesn't matter, basically because it's wrong. The Bible is the overwhelming source behind the Constitution.
Arterion
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jul, 2007 11:00 pm
@Reagaknight,
Reagaknight;27036 wrote:
I think Volunteer already stated that this was empty rhetoric meant to appease Tripoli. No, it doesn't matter, basically because it's wrong. The Bible is the overwhelming source behind the Constitution.


It was still signed by all of congress. How is it "wrong"? I think that it means exactly what it says. The USA isn't and never has been a christian nation, nor founded on christianity. That would be wholly unconstitutional. It's always been a pluralistic society with people of many faiths, and no faiths at all. There may be particular faith the majority of people practice, but it's certainly not exclusive. Even then, they don't all practice the exact same faith. "Christian" means a lot of different things to a lot of people. Even if the USA were only filled with christian believers, I don't think we'd see people in any more agreement over issues than we do now, because every flavor of christianity has a different take on things.

And what, unique to the bible, is reflected in the constitution? I've read both and don't see many parallels, but I might have just overlooked them.
0 Replies
 
Reagaknight
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jul, 2007 08:38 am
@The Last Cathedral,
The idea that "The lord is king, lawmaker, and judge" in Isaiah, for one, is reflected in the three branches of government.

34% of citations in the Constitution came from the Bible, represented.

60% of quotes from men who used the Bible to form their conclusions.

94% of all quotes used by the founding fathers came from the bible.
0 Replies
 
Arterion
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jul, 2007 03:45 pm
@The Last Cathedral,
57% of statistics are made up on the fly. Very Happy

The reference to Isaiah is a good start, but I'm not sure about the % numbers. Did they come from a study or something?
0 Replies
 
rugonnacry
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2007 01:04 pm
@The Last Cathedral,
80% of the bibles ORIGINAL text can be traced back to paganism dated thousands of years earlier. (I made up the percentage)
0 Replies
 
Volunteer
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2007 05:07 pm
@The Last Cathedral,
From the Library of Congress:
Religion and the Congress of the Confederation, 1774-89 (Religion and the Founding of the American Republic, Library of Congress Exhibition)

Religion and the Congress of the Confederation, 1774-89 (Religion and the Founding of the American Republic, Library of Congress Exhibition)

Here is an excerpt:

IV. Religion and the Congress of the Confederation, 1774-89
The Continental-Confederation Congress, a legislative body that governed the United States from 1774 to 1789, contained an extraordinary number of deeply religious men. The amount of energy that Congress invested in encouraging the practice of religion in the new nation exceeded that expended by any subsequent American national government. Although the Articles of Confederation did not officially authorize Congress to concern itself with religion, the citizenry did not object to such activities. This lack of objection suggests that both the legislators and the public considered it appropriate for the national government to promote a nondenominational, nonpolemical Christianity.

Congress appointed chaplains for itself and the armed forces, sponsored the publication of a Bible, imposed Christian morality on the armed forces, and granted public lands to promote Christianity among the Indians. National days of thanksgiving and of "humiliation, fasting, and prayer" were proclaimed by Congress at least twice a year throughout the war. Congress was guided by "covenant theology," a Reformation doctrine especially dear to New England Puritans, which held that God bound himself in an agreement with a nation and its people. This agreement stipulated that they "should be prosperous or afflicted, according as their general Obedience or Disobedience thereto appears." Wars and revolutions were, accordingly, considered afflictions, as divine punishments for sin, from which a nation could rescue itself by repentance and reformation.

The first national government of the United States, was convinced that the "public prosperity" of a society depended on the vitality of its religion. Nothing less than a "spirit of universal reformation among all ranks and degrees of our citizens," Congress declared to the American people, would "make us a holy, that so we may be a happy people."

Go to the link and read on if you dare.
0 Replies
 
 

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