Iraqis Wrestle With Jewish Factor

A peaceful and tolerant religion. BullShit.

Hobitbob.
Check this out and comment if you care to.

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15618&highlight=.

Au, I'm not going to be able to change your bigotry.

Whose bigotry? Did you read the article?Do you think I should love those people.

I often read this Iraqi guy's blog, "Where is Raed?"
http://dearraed.blogspot.com/

In his blog he mentions a small enclave of Jews living in the middle of Bagdad, I think. He tried to visit them but they wanted nothing to do with him. They are barricaded inside a 6 foot thick walled compound and rarely come out. Apparently, the street where Saddam's palace is now located in Bagdad used to be a predominately wealthy Jewish area. It is a tree lined street that faces the Eurphrates. Before the establishment of Israel by the British and the US, Jews and Arabs got along quite well. I think the Muslims may have built a temple in Jeruselum as gift to the Jews a few centuries ago. Historically, Jews and Arabs have gotten along well with each other right up until the late 1940's.

An exerpt from the link noted below

Jews who lived in Islamic countries were well-treated by the Arabs.”
FACT
While Jewish communities in Islamic countries fared better overall than those in Christian lands in Europe, Jews were no strangers to persecution and humiliation among the Arabs. As Princeton University historian Bernard Lewis has written: "The Golden Age of equal rights was a myth, and belief in it was a result, more than a cause, of Jewish sympathy for Islam."22
Muhammad, the founder of Islam, traveled to Medina in 622 A.D. to attract followers to his new faith. When the Jews of Medina refused to recognize Muhammad as their Prophet, two of the major Jewish tribes were expelled. In 627, Muhammad's followers killed between 600 and 900 of the men, and divided the surviving Jewish women and children amongst themselves.23
The Muslim attitude toward Jews is reflected in various verses throughout the Koran, the holy book of the Islamic faith. "They [the Children of Israel] were consigned to humiliation and wretchedness. They brought the wrath of God upon themselves, and this because they used to deny God's signs and kill His Prophets unjustly and because they disobeyed and were transgressors" (Sura 2:61). According to the Koran, the Jews try to introduce corruption (5:64), have always been disobedient (5:78), and are enemies of Allah, the Prophet and the angels (2:97-98).
Jews were generally viewed with contempt by their Muslim neighbors; peaceful coexistence between the two groups involved the subordination and degradation of the Jews. In the ninth century, Baghdad's Caliph al-Mutawakkil designated a yellow badge for Jews, setting a precedent that would be followed centuries later in Nazi Germany.24
At various times, Jews in Muslim lands lived in relative peace and thrived culturally and economically. The position of the Jews was never secure, however, and changes in the political or social climate would often lead to persecution, violence and death.
When Jews were perceived as having achieved too comfortable a position in Islamic society, anti-Semitism would surface, often with devastating results. On December 30, 1066, Joseph HaNagid, the Jewish vizier of Granada, Spain, was crucified by an Arab mob that proceeded to raze the Jewish quarter of the city and slaughter its 5,000 inhabitants. The riot was incited by Muslim preachers who had angrily objected to what they saw as inordinate Jewish political power.
Similarly, in 1465, Arab mobs in Fez slaughtered thousands of Jews, leaving only 11 alive, after a Jewish deputy vizier treated a Muslim woman in "an offensive manner." The killings touched off a wave of similar massacres throughout Morocco.25
Other mass murders of Jews in Arab lands occurred in Morocco in the 8th century, where whole communities were wiped out by the Muslim ruler Idris I; North Africa in the 12th century, where the Almohads either forcibly converted or decimated several communities; Libya in 1785, where Ali Burzi Pasha murdered hundreds of Jews; Algiers, where Jews were massacred in 1805, 1815 and 1830; and Marrakesh, Morocco, where more than 300 hundred Jews were murdered between 1864 and 1880.26
Decrees ordering the destruction of synagogues were enacted in Egypt and Syria (1014, 1293-4, 1301-2), Iraq (854­859, 1344) and Yemen (1676). Despite the Koran's prohibition, Jews were forced to convert to Islam or face death in Yemen (1165 and 1678), Morocco (1275, 1465 and 1790-92) and Baghdad (1333 and 1344).27
The situation of Jews in Arab lands reached a low point in the 19th century. Jews in most of North Africa (including Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Libya and Morocco) were forced to live in ghettos. In Morocco, which contained the largest Jewish community in the Islamic Diaspora, Jews were made to walk barefoot or wear shoes of straw when outside the ghetto. Even Muslim children participated in the degradation of Jews, by throwing stones at them or harassing them in other ways. The frequency of anti-Jewish violence increased, and many Jews were executed on charges of apostasy. Ritual murder accusations against the Jews became commonplace in the Ottoman Empire.28
As distinguished Orientalist G.E. von Grunebaum has written:

It would not be difficult to put together the names of a very sizeable number Jewish subjects or citizens of the Islamic area who have attained to high rank, to power, to great financial influence, to significant and recognized intellectual attainment; and the same could be done for Christians. But it would again not be difficult to compile a lengthy list of persecutions, arbitrary confiscations, attempted forced conversions, or pogroms.29

The danger for Jews became even greater as a showdown approached in the UN. The Syrian delegate, Faris el-Khouri, warned: "Unless the Palestine problem is settled, we shall have difficulty in protecting and safeguarding the Jews in the Arab world."30More than a thousand Jews were killed in anti-Jewish rioting during the 1940's in Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Syria and Yemen.31 This helped trigger the mass exodus of Jews from Arab countries.

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mf15.html

This is certainly relevent although it is by no means a revelation. This type of anti-semitism is present all accross the Middle East, and even withen Middle Eastern communities outside that region.

I hate to resort to personnal anecdotes here, but bear with me. I live in an area with a decent Muslim population, and for many years now I have found most of my friends are of Middle Eastern decent. It never ceases to amaze me how these people - who dress, talk, and act like everyday Westerners - will readily advocate views on Judaism that would seem absolutely ridiculous to most of us. For example, I have found that it is widely considerd a 'fact' that Jews are 'running things behind the scenes' and 'trying to take over the Middle East.' They do not even attempt to hide thier contempt. I remember going to a Mosque once, and witnessing a Mullah quoting extensively from the Quran and Hadiths about the evils of Judaism. I remember him quoting a specific Hadith (not going to look it up) which basically states "The day will come when jews will flee from muslims and hide behind rocks and trees. They will tell the muslims 'oh, muslim, please do not kill me, I am a rock, I am a tree.' And then the Muslims will slaughter the jews.' The fact that these words were being spoken to, and accepted by, Muslims who would be considerd moderate and Americanized is eye-opening. As I said earlier, I usually avoid basing judgement on personal anecdotes, but what I have witnessed over the years through my extensive experiance in Muslim/American culture is nothing short of a broad based general consensus that Jews are evil. I leave you to draw your own conclusions.

EDIT: To eliminate any confusion I am not Isreali or Jewish. Also, the hadith I was referring to is below:

""The Day of Resurrection will not arrive until the Muslims make war against the Jews and kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: 'Oh Muslim, Oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'"

I'm sure variations exist, but that was the specific hadith he was quoting. Let me also point out that the Mullah was not advocating the killing of Jews. He was talking about the dangers of Judaism in general. However, the fact that he quoted such a seemingly radical scripture to an audience of moderate American Muslims was eye opening to me and relevent to this discussion.

Bigotry is Bigotry.

Casting aspersions on an entire religion based on specifiic example is the very definition of bigotry.

I have seen many pictures of black people in this country robbing liquor stores. Saying that black people are thieves is bigotry.

That's how bigotry works. One can always find examples that will rationalize your hatred.

Geesh, the Jews have certainly been the victims of this kind of demonization.

When will it end?

ILZ,

It seems like there is a "broad based general consensus" that Moslems are evil.

Gee, with all this bigotry sometimes it's hard to tell you all apart.

Who are you refering to when you say 'you people?'

Are you implying that I am a bigot?

On the contrary, I was merely relaying what I have observed over several years of discussions with Muslim people. And, as I said, the vast majority of my friends are Muslim. Pointing out that the majority of them exhibit what we would consider a ridiculous contempt of Judaism does not make me a bigot. It is a simple fact - based solely on my own experiance, of course, but I never claimed anything more.

It seems to me that you are one of 'those people' who would rather ignore the fact that there are larger sociological divides in the world and that, as a whole, there are often clear distinctions between the beliefs and behaviors of large groups of people based on race, religion, and ethnicity. If you are ignorant enough to believe that this qualifies as 'racism' or 'bigotry' than I sincerely feel sorry for you.

There is none so blind as he who will not see.
I keep reading I should not condemn the many for the few. Yet at the same time I read over and over again about the hatred of the Jews preached in Mosque after Mosque. In addition their schools both here and abroad inculcate the young with hatred for the Jews and I might add Christianity does not exactly get rave reviews. It is only a few that is a crock.

IronLion, I will correct you on two points

I didn't say "you people". I said "you all" which is a second person plural pronoun referring to you and Au.

Secondly, I never said that you were a bigot. I said that your post is supporting bigoted ideas. I don't know you and would not presume to say whether you are a bigot or not.

All I know is that your posts are suggesting that you can judge (unfavorably) a group of people based on their culture and their religion. You all are taking broad general stereotypes and using them to demonize an ethnic group.

If this isn't bigotry, I don't know what is.

This is not the first time that we have seen this in this country. Latinos in this country have been labled "drug dealers" and "gang members". Homosexuals are suspected of child abuse. African Americans are assumed to be sex-crazed and thieves. Need I go on.

You broad general characterizations of Moslem-Americans is just more of the same.

I am not calling you a bigot.

I am saying that the ideas in your post are just more of the same trash that has been leveled against the unpopular group of the day throughout the history of this nation.

Bigotry is Bigotry. Only the victims change. Each generation feels that their prejudice is somehow justified. But if you step back and look at it is indistinguishable.

We agree on that

Even you should see the irony here.

I think I have heard of someone who preaches hatred of the Moslems...

Brown
I know you can read. Therefore I ask you is what I stated true or not. And don't try to justify it with BS.
You talk bigotry but somehow can't see it when it comes from the Moslems or is that somehow in you confused thinking acceptable.

One of the things which has made the Jews "evil" in the eyes of beleaguered Muslims is the support given to Israel by the US. You can say what you want about this, you can love it or hate it, but it comes down to a major diplomatic failure on the part of both the US and Israel. Neither Jews nor Muslims are inherently "evil," and if we need to argue otherwise, there's something wrong with us. What is evil is the opportunism on the part of greedy politicians on both sides, and the fact that the most powerful country in the world chose to support one side over another.

Au, Everyone is capable of bigotry.

Are there mosques where hatred is taught? Of course. There are churches where hatred is taught. There are synagogues where hatred is taught and Hindu temples where hatred is taught.

Does this mean that all Christians or all Moslems or all Jews are hateful. Of course not. When it comes to bigotry the world religions are remarkably similar. There are people of good will in all religions, and people who succomb to anger and hatred.

I am just saying that people are people. The culture, ethnicity and religion don't matter. What matters is how you live your life. People everywhere are capable of both good and evil. There are examples of both in every ethnic group and religion.

I am just asking that you stop judging people based on their ethnicity and their religion. This is the very definition of bigotry.

You can keep pulling up examples of bad thing done or said by Moslems. What makes this bigotry is your implication that this represents Moslems in general.

There is no difference between what you are doing and what has done to every other ethnic group that has been the victim of bigotry.

Applause! Can you hear it in Boston coming up on the SW wind?

Let me open by saying that I find this subject very stimulating intellectually. I also consider the fundamental argument you advocate below to be one of the biggest misconceptions of our time. Here is why:

There is a tendency for us all, which has been ingrained in us since pre-school, to shy away from the idea that different cultures, religions, races, and ethic groups behave differently and have different beliefs on a large scale.

For example, saying that black people are criminals would be almost universally frowned upon and instantly recognized as racism. I agree with this wholeheartedy - it is wrong to label them as such.

However, our quickness to dismiss racist and stereotypical arguments has led to a tremendous problem in our society. Namely, we are unable to recognize that different groups do, in fact, exhibit different behaviors and beliefs on a large scale, and that in some cases, these behaviors and beliefs may be considered wrong.

Let me elaborate by referring to my previous example. It would be racist and wrong to say that all black people are criminals. However, and keep in mind that this is coming from a black man, it is a statistical fact that black people as a whole commit more crimes than white people. A black man is eleven times more likely to commit murder than a white man. A black man is also eleven times more likely to be murdered than a white man. This statistical difference is also easily exhibited in prisons where the number of black inmates hovers around 50% although we make up a far lesser percentage of the population.

To point out these facts is not 'racist' or 'bigoted.' They are simple facts; the conclusions you draw based on them are up to you. If you want to make the simplistic conclusion that this means all black people are sriminals, or that black people are biologically pre-disposed to crime, than that is your ignorant idea, not a part of the facts I brought up.

I don't want to get into it here, but I would submit that the distinctions between blacks and whites are due to sociological and historical factors rather than biological ones. So, I am clearly not racist or bigoted on the issue of blacks and crime - but I do refuse to ignore the unpleasant statistics about black crime. I would also submit that these troubling statistics indicate a serious problems withen our society - poverty in the black community, racism in the system, etc - that need to be openly discussed and adressed.

Ebrown_p, people like you stand in the way of progress almost as much as the racists and bigots you profess to despise. I am a firm believer that truth is an essential part of understanding the world and finding solutions. By refusing to acknowledge the truth you are preventing progress from being made. It is undoubtedly true that racism and bigotry are wrong and full of lies but you, my friend, are only perpetuating an equally big lie when you refuse to acknowledge the truth.





My posts do not suggest that "you can judge (unfavorably) a group of people based on their culture and their religion." I merely pointed out some objective facts. If you or anyone else is stupid and ignorant enough to make an unfavorable judgement based on them than that is your own failing.

Also, I wonder about the significance of you inserting the word 'unfavorably' into your sentence. I believe you have just put your foot in your mouth. You seem to be implying that although there are differences between races, religions, etc, those differences cannot be talked about or discussed if they may be intrepreted as 'unfavorable' differences - because then they are racism or bigotry. If not, they why put the 'unfavorably' in your sentence?

I look forward to a response on both points here.



You have provided me with a perfect example to illustrate my point here. Latino's, as a whole, statistically have a crime rate that is much higher than whites or, say, asians in America. This is a fact.

So, although it is wrong to label Latinos as 'drug dealers' we cannot ignore the fact that this racist stereotype is rooted in a statistical fact.

Morons will look at these statistics and draw racist conclusions. People with more knowledge and sense will look at these troubling statistics and recognize a problem which is probably rooted in sociological and historical differences between Latino and Caucasian experiances in America.

To ignore these facts is to allow ignorance and lies to continue. It makes people blind to the differences in our country and abroad, and therefore, unwilling to address these problems.



More of the same what?

More of the same pesky truths which, through your ingrained knee-jerk reaction, you label 'bigoted' because they do not conform with your fairy-tale notions that 'everybody is the same everywhere and anybody who says anything different is wrong and, quite possibly, a racist bigot'?

The fact is that in my extensive experiance in the Muslim/American community I have witnessed a broad-based general contempt for Judaism. This, of course, is only through my personal experiance. Obviously, this contempt varies in degree and prevalence - but it exists nonetheless.

Furthermore, this contempt for Judaism is clearly exhibited throughout the Middle East. Again, this is a fact. The anti-Semitism of the Middle Eastern populace is a well documented fact. I suppose you would label this as 'bigoted' as well.

The truth is that this sentiment clearly does exist among Middle Eastern Muslims and, to a lesser extent, Muslims in our own country. Much in the same way that similar sentiments existed in pre-WWII Europe and with respect to Blacks in South Africa as well as numeorus other instances throughout history.



See my remarks above. To reiterate:

Facts may be unpleasant, but only the conclusions we make based on these facts can be considered 'bigoted' or 'racist' or 'stereotypical' or any number of other evils. To ignore them is to replace one big lie with another big lie.

It is true that anti-semitism is prevalent in the Muslim populace. However, we should be carefull about the conclusions and opinions we make based on this. It is a sociological phenomenon that needs to be remembered and taken into consideration when taking certain foreign policy moves - not a reason to be prejudiced against Muslims.

It would be wrong to "condemn" them regardless of what they believe. After all, should I remind you of the racism that openly existed in the Southern United States which still lingers today, or the general anti-Semitism that was present throughout Europe in the pre World War 2 years. Our own culture is not above racism. Indeed, none is.