The crazy is back in Iraq

@Silverchild79,

"Take them out" is right...not by arrest, by death - quickly and covertly.

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@Silverchild79,

Funny enough, some of those radical Sunni tribes are using their militias to push Al Qaeda out, as they see them as part of the reason the US won't leave, and their methods are doing more harn than good to their cause.

Is al-Qaeda on the Run in Iraq? | TIME

The real question is, if AQI leaves the region, are we going to stay and continue to police, and choose a side in a civil war? Then wouldn't we be doing exactly the opposite of what we were supposed to be? Seems we would forcibly be installing our version of what their government should be, and stifling a true democracy, as if one could possibly exist there anyway.

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@Silverchild79,

I would be all for them if they would ally with the US for the common interest in Iraq.

But they don't support freedom either, they want to rule Iraq, that's why they care.

Power in Iraq must belong to the general public, not some cleric or terror group, or Iran

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@Silverchild79,

Silverchild79;17388 wrote:

FOXNews.com - Radical Anti-American Cleric Muqtada al-Sadr Returns to Iraq - International News | News of the World | Middle East News | Europe News

We need to bite the bullet and take out all the radical Militias, they are the biggest roadblock to peace in Iraq. Strike them, arrest them, try and punish them. There is a difference between free speach and attempting to start a Civil War.

well you would need to take out the elected government then,they have their own militias.

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@Silverchild79,

I oppose all militas unless they support the rule of the Iraqi government and not their leaders agenda

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@92b16vx,

92b16vx;17407 wrote:

Funny enough, some of those radical Sunni tribes are using their militias to push Al Qaeda out, as they see them as part of the reason the US won't leave, and their methods are doing more harn than good to their cause.

Is al-Qaeda on the Run in Iraq? | TIME

The real question is, if AQI leaves the region, are we going to stay and continue to police, and choose a side in a civil war? Then wouldn't we be doing exactly the opposite of what we were supposed to be? Seems we would forcibly be installing our version of what their government should be, and stifling a true democracy, as if one could possibly exist there anyway.

you have a better knowledge of iraq than the US government :thumbup: alot of the elected officials in iraq are connected to these militias,both sunni and shia

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@Silverchild79,

Silverchild79;17409 wrote:

I would be all for them if they would ally with the US for the common interest in Iraq.

But they don't support freedom either, they want to rule Iraq, that's why they care.

Power in Iraq must belong to the general public, not some cleric or terror group, or Iran

Exactly why I posed the question of what our roll would be IF Iraqis could sever AQI and push them out of the region. Our intent was never to war with the populace of Iraq, however if the terrorist organizations we are trying to snuff out are no longer there, that leaves a quagmire, as then we will either have to let Iraq settle it's own internal struggle from the sidelines, or choose a side, which is couterproductive, and even more iterventionist than we are all ready. Sunni and Shi'ite will NEVER want the other to have power.

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you have a better knowledge of iraq than the US government alot of the elected officials in iraq are connected to these militias,both sunni and shia

If you read what military leaders from as far back as Reagan era (who actually listen to his military advisors and withdrew) You'll see that the military leaders have always considered the type of guerilla warware in the region to be a complete unwinnable mess. Our political leaders on the other hand, want to push us in because it serves their political interest. As far as tribal leaders, yea they are all connected to their regional militias, but it isn't like it is here hwen you sau militia. They aren't loner fringe groups living on ranch in the middle of nowhere stockpiling weapons, it's pretty much the normal populace. Every home (practically) has an AK47, during the elections, we had a Iraqi secuirty detail that we were working with, kids as young as 13 were there armed with AKs, a local dentist was among them, and members of the Iraqi Army company we were in charge of.

One thing you have to remember is that no matter how positive Sunni tribes banding together to rid the area of AQI sounds, they are tied in with Iran, and we know where they stand as far as the US is concerned.

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@Silverchild79,

that is the problem with the media, they would have you believe there is a civil war when there is not.

The Chaotic environment in Iraq is closer to a Feudal conflict then anything else. You have the Iraqi Government and military, all kinds of Clerics (like Feudal Lords) who want power and have separate militias. An Insurgency from Iran/Syria , and oh yeah don't forget an Iraqi Al-Qeada sect with direct ties to Bin Laden.

A civil war would be preferable in some aspects to what's going on over there. But the only thing at the current time which keeps this place from imploding into African style Guerrilla Genocide IS the United States, the UK, and the freely elected Iraq Government.

Iraq's government cannot yet sustain itself, and until it can she needs our help. For better or worse we took Saddam out of power and we can't leave Iraq hanging during it's time of need because it's convenient for America to get out now. That is exactly the vain, do what feels good for us, American culture the world hates. We made a promise to Iraq and we need to deliver before we pack it in.

Wars are ended when they are won, not won when they are ended.

And how bad is it really? I hate losing Americans period but 4,500 in 4 1/2 years of war? That isn't even a bad year in Vietnam, or a bad day in WWII. What happened to American strength? I would think that smoking or driving kills more Americans annually then the Iraq war. Maybe we should pull out of the highway?

And get out of Iraq? You can't be serious, we aren't out of Germany yet! But we stayed there, won, and now being there ain't so bad. Germany didn't lose it's identity, it isn't indebted to us, and we didn't colonize them.

Again what happened to our strength? The media happened. The first televised war was Vietnam, it was also the first time we retreated, ever since then we've lost our nerve for long term conflict.

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@Silverchild79,

Quote:

One thing you have to remember is that no matter how positive Sunni tribes banding together to rid the area of AQI sounds, they are tied in with Iran, and we know where they stand as far as the US is concerned.

Sunnis tied with Iran?

1 Reply

@Silverchild79,

Silverchild79;17416 wrote:

that is the problem with the media, they would have you believe there is a civil war when there is not.

It is a civil war to the very definition. A war between citizens of the same country. Sunni, Shi'ite.

Quote:

The Chaotic environment in Iraq is closer to a Feudal conflict then anything else. You have the Iraqi Government and military, all kinds of Clerics (like Feudal Lords) who want power and have separate militias. An Insurgency from Iran/Syria , and oh yeah don't forget an Iraqi Al-Qeada sect with direct ties to Bin Laden.

A civil war would be preferable in some aspects to what's going on over there. But the only thing at the current time which keeps this place from imploding into African style Guerrilla Genocide IS the United States, the UK, and the freely elected Iraq Government.

While I conceed that we are "keeping the peace" to a degree, those seperate militias and tribes will band together to fight against the different sects. We can not possibly believe that our presence there is going to reverse centuries of hatred and warring between the two major sects in the region. Of course, this is kind of my point, when AQI is gone which side are we going to choose to back in the power struggle? And if the new government is so freely elected of the people, why the Sunni feeling so cut out? Obviously we won't side with them due to their Iranian connections correct? So how is that going to lead to stability in the region?

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Iraq's government cannot yet sustain itself, and until it can she needs our help. For better or worse we took Saddam out of power and we can't leave Iraq hanging during it's time of need because it's convenient for America to get out now. That is exactly the vain, do what feels good for us, American culture the world hates. We made a promise to Iraq and we need to deliver before we pack it in.

Obiviously they require help, and it will not be a short road till they can stand on their own, if ever. But od you honestly believe flexing our military muscle in the region to promote our brand of governmental ideals is the right way?

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Wars are ended when they are won, not won when they are ended.

How are we going to win a war by alienating half the population of a country we are trying to get restarted?

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And how bad is it really? I hate losing Americans period but 4,500 in 4 1/2 years of war? That isn't even a bad year in Vietnam, or a bad day in WWII. What happened to American strength? I would think that smoking or driving kills more Americans annually then the Iraq war. Maybe we should pull out of the highway?

This is niether Vietnam, or WWII, and that remark, coming from a former military member is about as callous as any you could make. So what would be a good number for you? 10,000? 1,000,000? 10,000,000,000? Would you then be satisfied that we had enough dead to justify leaving?

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And get out of Iraq? You can't be serious, we aren't out of Germany yet! But we stayed there, won, and now being there ain't so bad. Germany didn't lose it's identity, it isn't indebted to us, and we didn't colonize them.

Are you trying to compare Germany to Iraq? Not possible. The situations surrounding WWII and the Gulf are so completely different, not to mention the countries and populace themselves, it isn't even funny.

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Again what happened to our strength? The media happened. The first televised war was Vietnam, it was also the first time we retreated, ever since then we've lost our nerve for long term conflict.

Lost our nerve? Would you like to tell that to the guys that signed up to fight in Afghanistan, only to be shipped to Iraq? I don't so much think we have lost our nerve, but been awoken to the evils of the government and it's agenda. I haven't heard much call to abandon Afghanistan, people are put out about our seeming inability to capture OBL, but aside from that most feel it is a just war. Maybe if we hadn't been diverted to Iraq, we could have absolutely crushed the Taliban, instead of effectively wounding it's abilities. I personally would like to know why we went into a soft target like Iraq, instead of a more terrorist friendly Iran.

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@Reagaknight,

Reagaknight;17423 wrote:

Sunnis tied with Iran?

From Silvers article...

Quote:

Al-Sadr is believed to be honing plans to consolidate political gains and foster ties with Iran

I'm sure you could find more collaberation if you look.

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@Silverchild79,

and he was living there for the last few months

"He's brining crazy back, YEA!
them other Sunni don't know how to act, YEA!"

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@Silverchild79,

No, he's Shiite, right? You said Sunnis. All I could find in the article that might suggest that was him calling on Sunnis to assist him in driving us out.

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@Silverchild79,

my bad, yup he's Shiite and so's Iran, there's your reason

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@Silverchild79,

Yeah, I didn't think so. From what I hear, the Sunnis want anything but Iran to be in Iraq. But it's the Sunnis, according to 92b's article, that are supposedly driving al-Quaeda out of Iraq, so since there's no alliance with Iran, it's not such a double-edged sword, right? Of course, terrorists go beyond just al-Qaueda, it's probably more complicated than that.

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@Silverchild79,

well the majority of Iraq is Shitte so the Sunni have their work cut out for them. The trick is to do away with the radicals then get the Shitte, Sunni, and Kurds on the same page. That's what the oil sharing bill is about, but they've yet to pass it.

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@Reagaknight,

Reagaknight;17434 wrote:

No, he's Shiite, right? You said Sunnis. All I could find in the article that might suggest that was him calling on Sunnis to assist him in driving us out.

You are correct, I misconstrued it during my intial reading. Of course that doesn't change the "double edged sword".

If we could get rid of the radicals, that would definitely be a step in teh right direction, now how should we do that? I mean, there's always going to be a fringe element, even here in America we have radicals that commit acts of destruction. Our presence in Iraq only fuels the radicals resolve, so how do we support their newly formed government, and keep public sentiment positive?

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@Silverchild79,

Putting at-home political differences aside for a moment - one component that is missing in Iraq that is deeply embedded here is a strong sense of country. We can fight among ourselves but have someone attempt to strike at our heart and we're united.

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@socalgolfguy,

socalgolfguy;17463 wrote:

Putting at-home political differences aside for a moment - one component that is missing in Iraq that is deeply embedded here is a strong sense of country. We can fight among ourselves but have someone attempt to strike at our heart and we're united.

This rings quite true. And as I have said a few times before, I nor anyone I know has any problem what so ever fighting a legit war, against a legit enemy. Unfortunately nowadays we are locked in battle with a decentralized enemy, that can't be pinpointed so easily on a map, and whos allegiances are not fully known.

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The crazy is back in Iraq

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