If Jesus was God ...

There is no point, he'll just give us more Qu'ran quotes. He just doesn't understand those aren't proof of anything.

So the Quran is proof itself of proof?

That is a little odd.

Apparently thats what he believes. Guess he doesn't see the circular logic in that.

Do you know anything about the subjective theory of probability !!?



If a statement in the Quran, or any book correlates with modern science, that does not make it automatically miraculous. There can be several human explanations. Therefore, in a discussion on Quran and science, there needs to be certain systems and procedures. The following algorithm will provide a systematic method of analysis without personal opinion or bias. This algorithm lists all the human possibilities, and also lists the supernatural possibility:



IF Statement in the Quran = Scientific fact THEN

(it can be one or more of the following 8 possibilities)

A. Perhaps the author of the statement was a genius.

B. A very good guess, luck.

C. Perhaps the author of the statement was a great scientist

D. Coincidence (ex: a poetic statement which just happened to match
up with science),, and the author had no intention of talking
about science; it was an accident. Coincidence is a form of luck.

E. Common sense (ex: rain causes grass to grow).

F. The scientific fact is observable.

G. The information already pre-existed in history.
(this can only be entertained if we have historical errors)

H. A source greater than man was involved


Then we use the mathematics to calculate the probabilty of each scientific statement in the Quran and then calculate the overall probability of all the scientific statements mentioned in the Quran. That will either tell us the Quran is a man-made book OR a book which could not be authored by man, rather a greater source had to have been the author of this Book.

If you agree we can start!

I answered it. Here it is again:

It must match it's ultimate beauty and perfection in language, consistency, recitation, miracles, freedom from any single contradiction or error, and ease of memorization.


Remeber what is quoted in english (and langauges other than Arabic) are only translation of the meaning of the Quran (not the Quran itself).

This challenge was originally presented to the disbeliever Arabs who were at the top level in mastering the Arabic language during the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him) but they could not answer the challenge. This challenge will continue till the last day to all disbelievers. Currently there are more than 20 million Arab christians/Jews and many of them have higher degrees in Arabic language. All the Christians/Jews and disbelievers world wide would surely support them to prove that this Quran is not from God by just answering this challenge. But they could not and no body could.

I think Dr.Seuss meets all of those qualifications.

You forgot the next option!

I. The passage was worded in such a way that an interpretation can be twisted to match to what is known science by the reader.

I thought you were more knowledgable and sincere in your questions and arguments but unfortunately you proved me wrong. You just seek unfruitful discussion and you mistakenly assume we are in a game or war to be won.

The knowledge and logic, not Islam and Quran, are your enemies.

Bye.

please do tell me why this is not a legitimate option:

I. The passage was worded in such a way that an interpretation can be twisted to match to what is known science by the reader.

Islam, Sword, is a fanciful tale and weird package of myths, custom-made for Arabs. Muhammad killed to gain power, and his personal example of murder has set the tone for his followers ever since. If the entire world were occupied by Muslims only, they'd kill each off within a century. :thumbdown:

How can Jesus be God when he explicitly stated in the following passage that they are two different identities!!?

Jesus said: "Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me." [John 14:1]

[SIZE="3"]The Amazing Bible Says the Garments can be infected by LEPROSY !!!.... [/SIZE]
It describes the amazing biblical cure for it:

[Leviticus 13:47-59]:
47 ?When a garment has a mark of leprosy in it, whether it is a wool garment or a linen garment, 48 whether in warp or woof, of linen or of wool, whether in leather or in any article made of leather, 49 if the mark is greenish or reddish in the garment or in the leather, or in the warp or in the woof, or in any article of leather, it is a leprous mark and shall be shown to the priest. 50 ?Then the priest shall look at the mark and shall quarantine the article with the mark for seven days. 51 ?He shall then look at the mark on the seventh day; if the mark has spread in the garment, whether in the warp or in the woof, or in the leather, whatever the purpose for which the leather is used, the mark is a leprous malignancy, it is unclean. 52 ?So he shall burn the garment, whether the warp or the woof, in wool or in linen, or any article of leather in which the mark occurs, for it is a leprous malignancy; it shall be burned in the fire.
53 ?But if the priest shall look, and indeed the mark has not spread in the garment, either in the warp or in the woof, or in any article of leather, 54 then the priest shall order them to wash the thing in which the mark occurs and he shall quarantine it for seven more days. 55 ?After the article with the mark has been washed, the priest shall again look, and if the mark has not changed its appearance, even though the mark has not spread, it is unclean; you shall burn it in the fire, whether an eating away has produced bareness on the top or on the front of it.
56 ?Then if the priest looks, and if the mark has faded after it has been washed, then he shall tear it out of the garment or out of the leather, whether from the warp or from the woof; 57 and if it appears again in the garment, whether in the warp or in the woof, or in any article of leather, it is an outbreak; the article with the mark shall be burned in the fire. 58 ?The garment, whether the warp or the woof, or any article of leather from which the mark has departed when you washed it, it shall then be washed a second time and will be clean.?
59 This is the law for the mark of leprosy in a garment of wool or linen, whether in the warp or in the woof, or in any article of leather, for pronouncing it clean or unclean."




How can any sane person thinks that this bible is from God !!

Those were the customs of the time, do you think even the God of the bible would put such trivial revelations in the mind of men? That more likely came from superstition and fear than divine visions, as God isn't even mentioned in the text. Far be it from me to understand God, but humans are easier as they generally work from some incentive, and fear is a very powerful one. Yes that does further corroborate your claim, but I am not here to defend the Bible. You must realise however that your Quran does not encompass all people, as not everyone can accept truth from it, that in my eyes does not disqualify it, far from that, as I haven't even read it, but you must accept that our world is wide and people posses great differences, no teacher can empathize with everyone, they are also human, fragmented and flawed. Maybe God is pleased that all our main religions lead to the same goal, happiness, completeness, then again I am only human and trying to consider issues far above myself, but I guess that is right up God's alley.

On another note, you seem to take for granted that a force superior in knowledge to us is divine. I for one know quite a few people willing to argue that extraterrestrials are responsible for some, if not many of our scientific breakthroughs.

state of denial!




That shows your negative prejudgment against the Noble Quran without providing any supported proofs. You just throw false allegations against it without even try to read it and you think that will make truth becomes falsehood!

You couldn't admit the corruption and nonsense of the bible without throwing your false negative prejudgments against a book (Quran) you admit yourself that you have never read it.

[SIZE="3"]Quranic Standards[/SIZE]

Here are few examples of the noble standards and teachings in the Quran:


JUSTICE

The Quranic standards of justice transcend considerations of race, religion, color, and creed, as Muslims are commanded to be just to their friends and foes alike, and to be just at all levels, as the Quran puts it:

?O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even if it be against yourselves, your parents, and your relatives, or whether it is against the rich or the poor...?(Quran 4:135)

According to another Quranic passage:

?Let not the hatred of a people swerve you away from justice. Be just, for this is closest to righteousness??(Quran 5:8)

With regards to relations with non-Muslims, the Quran further states:

?God does not forbid you from doing good and being just to those who have neither fought you over your faith nor evicted you from your homes...?(Quran 60:8)

The scholars of the Quran have concluded that these rulings apply to all nations, followers of all faiths, as a matter of fact to all humanity.[2] In the view of the Quran, justice is an obligation. That is why the Prophet was told:

??If you judge, judge between them with justice??(Quran 5:42)


Islamic Standards

"On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.(The Noble Quran, 5:32)"

"Allah does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. Allah loves just dealers.(The Noble Quran, 60:8)"

"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.(The Noble Quran, 2:256)"

"Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to God's will) in Islam. Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them).(The Noble Quran, 15:2-3)"

"Say,'The truth is from your Lord': Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it):......(The Noble Quran, 18:29)"

Noble Verse 42:40 "The recompense for an injury is an injury equal thereto (in degree): but if a person forgives and makes reconciliation, his reward is due from Allah: for (Allah) Loveth not those who do wrong."

Islamic Standards

It is not Al-Birr (piety, righteousness, and each and every act of obedience to Allah, etc.) that you turn your faces towards east and (or) west (in prayers); but Al-Birr is (the quality of) the one who believes in Allah, the Last Day, the Angels, the Book, the Prophets and gives his wealth, in spite of love for it, to the kinsfolk, to the orphans, and to Al-Masakin (the poor), and to the wayfarer, and to those who ask, and to set slaves free, performs As-Salat (prayer), and gives the Zakat (charity), and who fulfill their covenant when they make it, and who are patient in extreme poverty and ailment (disease) and at the time of fighting (during the battles). Such are the people of the truth and they are Al-Muttaqun (the pious)"
[The Noble Quran 2:177]

"Worship Allah and join none with Him in worship; and do good to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, Al-Masakin (the poor), the neighbor who is near of kin, the neighbor who is a stranger, the companion by your side, the wayfarer (you meet), and those (slaves) whom your right hands possess. Verily, Allah does not like such as are proud and boastful."
[The Noble Quran 4:36]

"Verily, Allah enjoins Al-'dl (i.e. justice and worshipping none but All?h Alone - Islamic Monotheism) and Al-Ihsan (i.e. to be patient in performing your duties to Allah, totally for Allah's sake and in accordance with the Sunnah (legal ways) of the Prophet (peace be upon him in a perfect manner), and giving (help) to kith and kin (i.e. all that Allah has ordered you to give them e.g., wealth, visiting, looking after them, or any other kind of help), and forbids Al-Fahsh?'(i.e. all evil deeds, e.g. illegal sexual acts, disobedience of parents, polytheism, to tell lies, to give false witness, to kill a life without right), and Al-Munkar (i.e. all that is prohibited by Isl?mic law: polytheism of every kind, disbelief and every kind of evil deeds), and Al-Baghy (i.e. all kinds of oppression), He admonishes you, that you may take heed."
[The Noble Quran 16:90]

"23 And your Lord (Allah) has decreed that you worship none but Him. And that you be dutiful to your parents. If one of them or both of them attain old age in your life, say not to them a word of disrespect, nor shout at them but address them in terms of honor.
24 And lower unto them the wing of submission and humility through mercy, and say: "My Lord! Bestow on them Your Mercy as they did bring me up when I was young."
[The Noble Quran 17:23-24]

Ok you clearly misunderstood pretty much everthing I ment to say, guess thats my fault, I do have a tendency to ramble on. Let me try again. First of all to correct you, I am not christian, in my country we have dozens of different christian followings, many exploit their followers and take from them more than they have to give, they are corrupt old men who buy cars and houses, who control politicians through funds. These dispicable men are the scum of society, feeding off the poor and undereducated for their own means. Even so we have soo many christian churches that even if 50% are like this, there is still another 50% who are truly sacred people, helping and living lives dedicated to God and charity. I have personally met many from both sides, but there is nothing even close to a research about this, and there are no real numbers nor a way to get them without me personally investigating each and every church. The Bible also contains many of the superstitionf of the age, but that is normal, it has not only been a spiritual book for some time, it was law, much like the quran if I'm not mistaken, and that is what ruined it for me, I clearly see human hands in its writings, I can see where human incentive might have produced several passages, and I have also found that in many places in the quran, or at least the places I read. I realise that was quite long, but completely necessary.

Yes I haven't read the q'uran, but I have read from the q'uran, though I find it appalling the complete disregard for women, by placing them at the same level as supposed slave, for example:
[2:178] O you who believe, equivalence is the law decreed for you when dealing with murder - the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the female for the female. If one is pardoned by the victim's kin, an appreciative response is in order, and an equitable compensation shall be paid. This is an alleviation from your Lord and mercy. Anyone who transgresses beyond this incurs a painful retribution.

RK translation Sura 1-4

As you can see that is definatly not a biased website, as you may check for yourself, it was the first option from googleing: the quran english. That is only one example, if you need more I can get them, but this way you can properly refute, one at a time.

what are you?

Nothing actually, I don't fit into any dogma. I learn from myself about myself, and about the universe from the universe.

Sounds like a deist to me. In other words, do you believe there may be a god but are not sure exactly what he/it may be? :dunno:

I honestly don't know what I am. So I prefer to say I am nothing.