and when i say i want a Hot Pocket for Lunch, I REALLY MEAN IT!
You're little statement about it being the ONLY place is unsupported by scriptures.
Oh, but it is supported by Scripture. You see, the reason Jerusalems East Gate remains sealed today, is because the Gate can only be opened by the Prince to come. When the ancient sealed Gate is opened, the Prince will have access to the Sanctuary. In Deuteronomy 12:5, it shows us, that the God of the Bible has only given us (ONE) location on earth for His dwelling place. And that chapter and verse states. But your are to seek (THE PLACE) the LORD your God will choose from among all your tribes to put His name there for (HIS DWELLING)
(TO THAT PLACE YOU MUST GO;) This is a command by God.
And this command is supported by Scripture. The Bible calls this, the (HOLY PLACE)
But we still haven't established yet which sanctuary. Unless we determine precisely which one it talks about then what prevents christians from assuming whichever gate is unopened is the one the bible is talking about.
it's called hindsight...
RED DEVIL;59092 wrote:
The God of the Old Testament will tell you that in the latter years He will gather the Jewish people from all the lands where they have been scattered and He will allow them to return to the land of Israel. They will retake Jerusalem, and yet this will anger many nations around the world. And God tells us, He is not doing this (for their sakes), because they have polluted His name where ever they wandered. God is doing this to reveal to both the Jews and the world who He is. God is not bringing them back because they know Him, He is bringing them back, because they do not know Him. The prophecies of the Bible are true, and if you believe that, then you should consider the prophecies of Ezekiel chapters 36,37,38, and 39. These prophecies have never occured in distant history, yet they are happening today. Do we ignore them? Or do we believe them? They describe God's bigger plans for the last days. And God has a plan for Israel. I believe God, and I believe in His plan.
Clearly Ezekiel is speaking of prophesy already fulfilled...before Jesus came.
The book of Ezekiel was written during the days of Judah's captivity in Babylon, starting from the fifth year (Ezekiel 1:2) and going to the twenty fifth year (Ezekiel 40:1). This book is actually a collection of prophecies made by the Prophet Ezekiel. Ezekiel 37 is among a set of undated prophecies that most likely were made shortly after the fall of Jerusalem, somewhere around the twelfth year of captivity.
Ezekiel 37 is commonly titled the "PROPHECY OF THE VALLEY OF DRY BONES". This prophecy has indeed been fulfilled. As the valley of dry bones represents Israel's then current captivity and the apparent hopelessness of their situation. "Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They indeed say, 'Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off." -- Ez. 37:11.
The restoration of the bones was to prove that God is capable of doing what may seem hopeless to man. The nation of Israel understood their hopeless situation of being in captivity, but God promised to restore them once again, as He had earlier, "When you see this, your heart shall rejoice, AND YOUR "BONES" shall flourish like grass; The land of the Lord shall be known to His servants, and His indignation to His enemies" -- Isaiah 66:14. A clear reference to the Prophecy of the Valley of Dry Bones.
But what really proves the fulfillment of this prophecy is a second prophecy concerning the 10 tribes of the Nation of Biblical Israel. In Ez. 37:15-28 we see Ezekiel speaking of the tribes that were in Assyrian captivity as well as the tribe enslaved in Babylon. This also was promised earlier (Isaiah 11:11-16, Jer. 30:3, Zech. 10:6. Israel had been divided from the days of King Rehoboam, but God promised that it would one day end (Isaiah 11:13, Jer. 3:18, 50:4, and Hosea 1:1.
And God said that "AFTER" the fulfillment of this promise that He would establish a kingdom setup with a descendant of King David sitting in reign. This is a clear reference to the spiritual kingdom established at the time of Christ. Read Luke 1:32, Acts 2:26-36. See also Jer. 23:5, 30:9, Miach5:2,4. Along with this was the promise of a NEW COVENANT, that we are currently living under (Ez. 37:26, Jer. 31:31-33, 32-40). This to was fulfilled according to our New Testament revelations -- Heb 8:13.
Thus, just as the New Testament shows that the promised kingdom is indeed a spiritual kingdom and not the ASSUMED PHYSICAL KINGDOM -- John 18:36. That land which was promised in the Old Testament is also a Spiritual Land (heaven) "For as the new heavens and the new earth Which I will make shall remain before Me," saith the Lord. "So shall your descendants and your name remain." -- Isaiah 66:22.
The only way for Jesus to sit in reign of King David's throne would be in a Spiritual Manner, for God sworn and oath that no descendant of King Davids son JECONIAH would never PHYSICALLY REIGN because he was so evil (Jer. 22:24-30), and indeed Jesus is a legal descendant of King Davids son Jeconiah -- See the listed lineage of Jesus in Matthew.
With that oath sworn by God, and due to the fact that God cannot lie....just how is Jesus supposed to come back and establish a physical reign here on earth, WITHOUT MAKING God's promised oath, A LIE? Clearly as described in Acts 2:26-37, Jesus is now sitting in reign on David's throne, IN A SPIRITUAL SENSE and Israel has been completely restored through the Doctrine of Christianity, as described. "And if ye be Christ's, then are ABRAHAM'S SEED, and heirs according to the promise." -- Gal 3:29 For indeed there is neither Geek (Gentile) or (Jew) but we all are one in Christ Jesus -- Gal. 3:28.
Just what tribal ID is the modern nation that calls itself Isarel going by? Just where is the King? Just where is the Holy Counsel tribe that makes all law? Is not modern Israel a semi-democracy, with none of the characteristics of the nation of Biblical Israel that God made such promises to?
Just things to consider before stating that all prophecy found in the Bible is unfulfilled. (RD)
Campbell34;59125 wrote:
Clearly Ezekiel is speaking of prophesy already fulfilled...before Jesus came.
The book of Ezekiel was written during the days of Judah's captivity in Babylon, starting from the fifth year (Ezekiel 1:2) and going to the twenty fifth year (Ezekiel 40:1). This book is actually a collection of prophecies made by the Prophet Ezekiel. Ezekiel 37 is among a set of undated prophecies that most likely were made shortly after the fall of Jerusalem, somewhere around the twelfth year of captivity.
Ezekiel 37 is commonly titled the "PROPHECY OF THE VALLEY OF DRY BONES". This prophecy has indeed been fulfilled. As the valley of dry bones represents Israel's then current captivity and the apparent hopelessness of their situation. "Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They indeed say, 'Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off." -- Ez. 37:11.
The restoration of the bones was to prove that God is capable of doing what may seem hopeless to man. The nation of Israel understood their hopeless situation of being in captivity, but God promised to restore them once again, as He had earlier, "When you see this, your heart shall rejoice, AND YOUR "BONES" shall flourish like grass; The land of the Lord shall be known to His servants, and His indignation to His enemies" -- Isaiah 66:14. A clear reference to the Prophecy of the Valley of Dry Bones.
But what really proves the fulfillment of this prophecy is a second prophecy concerning the 10 tribes of the Nation of Biblical Israel. In Ez. 37:15-28 we see Ezekiel speaking of the tribes that were in Assyrian captivity as well as the tribe enslaved in Babylon. This also was promised earlier (Isaiah 11:11-16, Jer. 30:3, Zech. 10:6. Israel had been divided from the days of King Rehoboam, but God promised that it would one day end (Isaiah 11:13, Jer. 3:18, 50:4, and Hosea 1:1.
And God said that "AFTER" the fulfillment of this promise that He would establish a kingdom setup with a descendant of King David sitting in reign. This is a clear reference to the spiritual kingdom established at the time of Christ. Read Luke 1:32, Acts 2:26-36. See also Jer. 23:5, 30:9, Miach5:2,4. Along with this was the promise of a NEW COVENANT, that we are currently living under (Ez. 37:26, Jer. 31:31-33, 32-40). This to was fulfilled according to our New Testament revelations -- Heb 8:13.
Thus, just as the New Testament shows that the promised kingdom is indeed a spiritual kingdom and not the ASSUMED PHYSICAL KINGDOM -- John 18:36. That land which was promised in the Old Testament is also a Spiritual Land (heaven) "For as the new heavens and the new earth Which I will make shall remain before Me," saith the Lord. "So shall your descendants and your name remain." -- Isaiah 66:22.
The only way for Jesus to sit in reign of King David's throne would be in a Spiritual Manner, for God sworn and oath that no descendant of King Davids son JECONIAH would never PHYSICALLY REIGN because he was so evil (Jer. 22:24-30), and indeed Jesus is a legal descendant of King Davids son Jeconiah -- See the listed lineage of Jesus in Matthew.
With that oath sworn by God, and due to the fact that God cannot lie....just how is Jesus supposed to come back and establish a physical reign here on earth, WITHOUT MAKING God's promised oath, A LIE? Clearly as described in Acts 2:26-37, Jesus is now sitting in reign on David's throne, IN A SPIRITUAL SENSE and Israel has been completely restored through the Doctrine of Christianity, as described. "And if ye be Christ's, then are ABRAHAM'S SEED, and heirs according to the promise." -- Gal 3:29 For indeed there is neither Geek (Gentile) or (Jew) but we all are one in Christ Jesus -- Gal. 3:28.
Just what tribal ID is the modern nation that calls itself Isarel going by? Just where is the King? Just where is the Holy Counsel tribe that makes all law? Is not modern Israel a semi-democracy, with none of the characteristics of the nation of Biblical Israel that God made such promises to?
Just things to consider before stating that all prophecy found in the Bible is unfulfilled. (RD)
If you believe that these prophecies were fulfilled, please explain how Ezekiel chapter 37 verses 26,27, and 28 were fulfilled. This is where God tells them that His sanctuary will be in the midst of them for ever more. (THIS HAS NOT HAPPENED.) This prophecy was not fulfilled.
Also, Ezekiel chapter 38 has not been fulfilled either. Please explain how you think this was fulfilled in the past?
It appears your are into what is called replacement theology. You substitute the literal prophecy, and try to spiritualize it away. You can try to do this, but the literal details of prophecy will not allow for it.
RED DEVIL;59288 wrote:
If you believe that these prophecies were fulfilled, please explain how Ezekiel chapter 37 verses 26,27, and 28 were fulfilled. This is where God tells them that His sanctuary will be in the midst of them for ever more. (THIS HAS NOT HAPPENED.) This prophecy was not fulfilled.
Also, Ezekiel chapter 38 has not been fulfilled either. Please explain how you think this was fulfilled in the past?
It appears your are into what is called replacement theology. You substitute the literal prophecy, and try to spiritualize it away. You can try to do this, but the literal details of prophecy will not allow for it.
I do not believe what is not written, this is clearly written as fulfilled prophecy, and is concerning the nation of Biblical Israel being split into while in captivity.
Ezekiel has a vision where he is again moved in the spirit to a new location -- Ez. 37:1-10. "The Hand of the Lord came upon me", meaning He was inspired -- Ezekiel 1:3, 3:22, 8:1. He was moved as happened in Ez. 8. He was brought in the spirit to a valley full of dry bones. This was representing Israels, then current state of being in captivity or "dried up" as a nation, CUT OFF, from one another. -- Ez. 37:11. Also referenced in Ps. 141:7.....Unburied bones that had been dry in the sun. God asks Ezekiel if these bones can live, or can they escape their captivity and become one complete nation again -- Ez 37:3. Its looks hopeless to Ezekiel because they are so far gone. But Ezekiel knows that he is talking with God, as referenced in Deut. 32:39, l Samuel 2:6, and Romans 4:17. Ezekiel does not answer with either YES or NO, but that God alone knows the answer.
God tells Ezekiel to prophecy to the bones......the captured people of Israel. But it seems a useless task to preach to a morally decayed society. The message clearly means that the bones which was considered dried and dead (the captured peoples of Israel) would live again and become whole, referenced in Isaiah 26:19, John 5:25, 28-29, as speaking to the generation that Jesus was living in as fulfilling that prophecy, as Israel was rejecting The Son of Man..aka the Son of God due to their moral decay, also considered as dry bones. Recall that God made Adam from dust (Genesis 2:7), surely He can restore life to dead bones. Thus at the time of Ezekiel's spirit vision or prophecy the dried bones of the dead represent the captured nation of Israel. The nation has dried up and the people have lost all hope, as declared before in -- Isaiah 49:14; Ps. 77:7-9. And also a parallel to the present age, as God quickens the dead or lost though the grace of the Christ -- Eph. 2:1-7
In Ezekiel 37:15-28, clearly Ezekiel is speaking of rejoining Israel and Judah. As Vs 16 mentions this fact of taking one stick and to write upon it, one for Judah and one for the children of Israel. Ezekiel is to put the sticks together and they will once again become one. When the people ask for and explanation, Ezekiel is to explain that the sticks represent the divided kingdom and then he is to join them as one in front of their eyes, just as God will make Israel and Judah one nation again -- Zechariah 10:6.
This joining will take place at the time of restoration to the land as also declared in Isaiah 11:11-16, Jer. 30:3, 33:7. The nation of Israel had been divided since the days of Rehoboam. There had been much contention between the two nations. But, God is promising an end to this -- Isaiah 11:13, Jer. 3:18, 50:4, and Hosea 1:11. Idolatry would end -- Isaiah 2:18, Hosea 14:8 and they will live as one -- Jer. 32:38-39. Then when they are made into one nation again God will place the descendant of David over them to be their King, just as declared in reference to the coming Messiah or Jesus -- Jer. 23:5, 30:9, Luke 1:32. Micah 5:2, 4, John 10:11. Bringing them together as one forever -- Eph 2:11-22. They will be given the land -- Isaiah 60:21, Amos 9:15. This was one of the confusing points that many had when Jesus walked the earth and declared himself the Messiah, for they asked, "The people answered Him, We have heard out of the Law, (concerning this prophecy) that Christ abideth forever: and how sayest thou, The Son of Man must be lifted up (on the cross)? who is this son of man? -- John 12:34. They could not understand, just as you are having trouble in realizing that Jesus indeed would be their NEW KING and sit upon David's throng. They to were looking for a physical reign of the Christ and were confused because He was declaring Himself to be the Christ, but also speaking of His death. How could He die and still lead them? Thus, they rejected Him, never realizing that Jesus could not literally sit upon the throne of David because of God's promise that certain descendants would never be allowed, of which Jesus was clearly and legally such a descendant. But, it is explained that the nation of Israel and the gentiles of the whole world would come together as one and form one Christian nation (Spiritual Israel) in which Jesus was to reign forever...until the end time. The Book of Acts explains this as fulfilled prophecy 2:26-36, and Paul tells us that Jesus is to sit in reign over this spiritual nation until such time as the final judgment at the last trump and then Father God would once again take complete control again over heaven, 1 Cor. 15:24. Just how is Jesus to physically reign a 1000 years at his second coming, when God has forbidden a literal reign and Paul tells us that at the second coming it will not be to establish a kingdom but pass judgment and take the faithful with Him to heaven and hand the kingdom back over to Father God?
You still have yet to answer these questions? As far a the Prophecy of Ezekiel in Vs 37, since it was written during the time of captivity and was clearly referenced throughout the scriptures in other prophecy to mean the joining of the nation of Israel again, this is what is meant. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then what else can it be?
I will be awaiting for you to show us scripture or prophecy where the nation of Israel was to vanish from the face of the earth for 2000 years and come back without any tribal Identity, No royal priesthood for advisement from God, and no Godly appointed King. And just where it is promised that anyone can be saved other than through a belief in the Christ. And how is God's oath not to allow the descendant of David though his evil son to sit in reign ever again....is to be explained away, without making the oath's and promise of God into lies. (RD)
Campbell34;59289 wrote:
I do not believe what is not written, this is clearly written as fulfilled prophecy, and is concerning the nation of Biblical Israel being split into while in captivity.
Ezekiel has a vision where he is again moved in the spirit to a new location -- Ez. 37:1-10. "The Hand of the Lord came upon me", meaning He was inspired -- Ezekiel 1:3, 3:22, 8:1. He was moved as happened in Ez. 8. He was brought in the spirit to a valley full of dry bones. This was representing Israels, then current state of being in captivity or "dried up" as a nation, CUT OFF, from one another. -- Ez. 37:11. Also referenced in Ps. 141:7.....Unburied bones that had been dry in the sun. God asks Ezekiel if these bones can live, or can they escape their captivity and become one complete nation again -- Ez 37:3. Its looks hopeless to Ezekiel because they are so far gone. But Ezekiel knows that he is talking with God, as referenced in Deut. 32:39, l Samuel 2:6, and Romans 4:17. Ezekiel does not answer with either YES or NO, but that God alone knows the answer.
God tells Ezekiel to prophecy to the bones......the captured people of Israel. But it seems a useless task to preach to a morally decayed society. The message clearly means that the bones which was considered dried and dead (the captured peoples of Israel) would live again and become whole, referenced in Isaiah 26:19, John 5:25, 28-29, as speaking to the generation that Jesus was living in as fulfilling that prophecy, as Israel was rejecting The Son of Man..aka the Son of God due to their moral decay, also considered as dry bones. Recall that God made Adam from dust (Genesis 2:7), surely He can restore life to dead bones. Thus at the time of Ezekiel's spirit vision or prophecy the dried bones of the dead represent the captured nation of Israel. The nation has dried up and the people have lost all hope, as declared before in -- Isaiah 49:14; Ps. 77:7-9. And also a parallel to the present age, as God quickens the dead or lost though the grace of the Christ -- Eph. 2:1-7
In Ezekiel 37:15-28, clearly Ezekiel is speaking of rejoining Israel and Judah. As Vs 16 mentions this fact of taking one stick and to write upon it, one for Judah and one for the children of Israel. Ezekiel is to put the sticks together and they will once again become one. When the people ask for and explanation, Ezekiel is to explain that the sticks represent the divided kingdom and then he is to join them as one in front of their eyes, just as God will make Israel and Judah one nation again -- Zechariah 10:6.
This joining will take place at the time of restoration to the land as also declared in Isaiah 11:11-16, Jer. 30:3, 33:7. The nation of Israel had been divided since the days of Rehoboam. There had been much contention between the two nations. But, God is promising an end to this -- Isaiah 11:13, Jer. 3:18, 50:4, and Hosea 1:11. Idolatry would end -- Isaiah 2:18, Hosea 14:8 and they will live as one -- Jer. 32:38-39. Then when they are made into one nation again God will place the descendant of David over them to be their King, just as declared in reference to the coming Messiah or Jesus -- Jer. 23:5, 30:9, Luke 1:32. Micah 5:2, 4, John 10:11. Bringing them together as one forever -- Eph 2:11-22. They will be given the land -- Isaiah 60:21, Amos 9:15. This was one of the confusing points that many had when Jesus walked the earth and declared himself the Messiah, for they asked, "The people answered Him, We have heard out of the Law, (concerning this prophecy) that Christ abideth forever: and how sayest thou, The Son of Man must be lifted up (on the cross)? who is this son of man? -- John 12:34. They could not understand, just as you are having trouble in realizing that Jesus indeed would be their NEW KING and sit upon David's throng. They to were looking for a physical reign of the Christ and were confused because He was declaring Himself to be the Christ, but also speaking of His death. How could He die and still lead them? Thus, they rejected Him, never realizing that Jesus could not literally sit upon the throne of David because of God's promise that certain descendants would never be allowed, of which Jesus was clearly and legally such a descendant. But, it is explained that the nation of Israel and the gentiles of the whole world would come together as one and form one Christian nation (Spiritual Israel) in which Jesus was to reign forever...until the end time. The Book of Acts explains this as fulfilled prophecy 2:26-36, and Paul tells us that Jesus is to sit in reign over this spiritual nation until such time as the final judgment at the last trump and then Father God would once again take complete control again over heaven, 1 Cor. 15:24. Just how is Jesus to physically reign a 1000 years at his second coming, when God has forbidden a literal reign and Paul tells us that at the second coming it will not be to establish a kingdom but pass judgment and take the faithful with Him to heaven and hand the kingdom back over to Father God?
You still have yet to answer these questions? As far a the Prophecy of Ezekiel in Vs 37, since it was written during the time of captivity and was clearly referenced throughout the scriptures in other prophecy to mean the joining of the nation of Israel again, this is what is meant. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then what else can it be?
I will be awaiting for you to show us scripture or prophecy where the nation of Israel was to vanish from the face of the earth for 2000 years and come back without any tribal Identity, No royal priesthood for advisement from God, and no Godly appointed King. And just where it is promised that anyone can be saved other than through a belief in the Christ. And how is God's oath not to allow the descendant of David though his evil son to sit in reign ever again....is to be explained away, without making the oath's and promise of God into lies. (RD)
Now I asked you the question first. How was Ezekiel 38 fulfilled. You can play with some of the Scriptures, but the more obvious ones will refute your misguided belief. When did Gog, with Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya attack Israel?
And when did God destroy those armies with great hailstones, and fire, and brimstone? When was Gogs armies buried in the valley of Hamongog?
RED DEVIL;59296 wrote:
Now I asked you the question first. How was Ezekiel 38 fulfilled. You can play with some of the Scriptures, but the more obvious ones will refute your misguided belief. When did Gog, with Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya attack Israel?
And when did God destroy those armies with great hailstones, and fire, and brimstone? When was Gogs armies buried in the valley of Hamongog?
The prophecy of Ezekiel has a dual meaning, in Ez. 37 God is allowing Ezekiel to see that hope is not lost simply because Israel is in captivity, as he commands him to preach to the people and provide them hope for he is sure to keep the promises that were referenced. In fact this is how Ezekiel proceeds to preach to the people...by pointing out what God has promised. The verse that you have referenced (Vs. 38) is clearly speaking of the coming Messiah (God in the flesh) who is to usher in a New Covenant for the nation of Israel, as referenced in the Verses that were provided.
Are you suggesting that Jesus was not God? That He is not capable of looking out for the people of Israel after the New Covenant comes in to effect?
The problem that you are having is the assumption that Christ is coming back to literally reign on earth for a period of 1000 years when the truth provided in the scriptures clearly tell us that Jesus has been sitting in reign of the kingdom/church for over 2000 years at this point in time. As the last days of man began when the Christ died upon the cross and such was confirmed by Peter in the very first Christian sermon ever preached. Peter clearly and distinctly informs everyone on the day of Pentecost that the last days are upon them, as was foretold in prophecy, "But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS IN THE LAST DAYS , SAITH GOD......" --Acts 2:16-17. He also pointed out that Jesus had already ascended to SPIRITUALLY sit in reign on King David's throne....just as promised. As nowhere is the Christ declared to physically reign....(Acts 2:26-36)
And indeed the Gospel was first preached to the entire nation of Israel, as they had the opportunity to come under the protection of God as promised in Ez. 38....for ever, until the last trump. You are falling to realize that Israel and the gentile nations were joined together to become one family of God, as God done away the law once the Christ had fulfilled the legal requirements thereof. Nowhere is Israel promised at some future date, such at the second coming of Jesus, salvation. The scriptures clearly tell us that there is only one way, and that is through the acceptance of Christ Jesus. God promised to destroy biblical Israel, in the physical sense if they continued to disobey His law. -- Lev. 26:27-39. He said they would be broken like a potters vessel, which cannot be whole again -- Jer. 19:11. Even Jesus made prophecy that was such, and informed the scribes and Pharisees that the very generation to which he was speaking would bring about this destruction -- Matthew 23:36. He also told his disciples the very same thing -- Matthew 24:34.
And indeed Israel was destroyed just as the prophets said, and Jesus foretold...in that very same generation, never to be made whole again. In 70 AD the Roman empire brought about the destruction of Jerusalem and the Nation of Biblical Israel was soon non-existent, just as was declared in prophecy in Jer. 31:31-36, when the Old Law departed from before God, and the New Covenant spoken of....where the law would be written on their hearts instead of on stone.
The scriptures are VERY CLEAR that Israel and the Gentiles were joined together. As I said, the prophecy about the two sticks and the one you mentioned in Ez. 38, has a dual meaning, unknown sometimes to very prophet that foretold of such. At the time of Ezekiel Israel and Judah was joined together with God looking over them, and in the time of Christ, Israel and the Gentiles were joined together...with God eternally looking over them, in the form of Christ as a shepard looks over his flock.
Notice how Peter informs us that at times the prophets of Old did not realize just what they were making prophecy about, "And we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed...." -- 11 Peter 1:19-21.
As I said, the scriptures declare that Israel and the gentile nations were made into one group to worship together forever. First the promise made by God to Israel concerning the possession of land was CONDITIONAL on the nation of Israel obeying God -- 1 Chron. 28:8. Her disobedience would cause her (physical Israel ) to be abandoned forever -- 1 Chron. 28:9.
You are presenting a case where ONLY PART OF THE SCRIPTURES are being considered...the part that suits your point of view, while ignoring the rest. And it is clearly stated that truth can only be determined by considering the ENTIRETY of God word. "The SUM of your word is TRUTH...." -- Ps. 119:160
Only though Jesus can man be saved -- Acts 4:12. Christ the only way -- John 14:6. There is no special favor toward Israel (modern). Lineage means nothing to God -- Luke 3:8 What is important is the heart, not physical lineage or circumcision -- Romans 2:28-29. The Jews have been just as guilty of sin as the gentiles -- Romans 3:9-10. THE SAME GOSPEL SAVES BOTH JEW AND GENTILE -- Romans 1:16.
THE JEWS AND THE GENTILES HAVE BEEN BROUGHT INTO ONE BODY. Reconciled into one body -- Eph. 2:11-18. The past mystery has been revealed -- Eph 3:6. THERE IS ONLY ONE BODY -- Eph. 2:11-18, and that body is the Christian Church -- Eph. 1:22-23.
There is equality in the body -- Gal. 3:22. THE LAW WHICH CREATED THE NATION OF ISRAEL WAS ONLY TEMP. UNTIL THE SEED WOULD COME -- Gal. 3:16. Jesus Christ was that seed -- Gal 3:24-25. NOW IN CHRIST WE ARE ALL ONE -- Gal. 3:25-28. Thus, by a belief in God and in Jesus as the Christ we become the descendants of Abraham and heirs to the promise -- Gal 3:29. Thus, lineage means nothing, for there is only one path to salvation.
And if you are expecting Christ to come back and establish a literal reign instead of accepting the reign that He now is sitting, you like the scribes and pharisees will be surprised as they did not understand their own law as well and was expecting a literal reign...even after Jesus told them, "My kingdom is not of this world....." -- John 18:36.
When Jesus comes back it will be to pass judgment and take the faithful to heaven, and then the end shall come. As Paul says that when he comes he will judge the living and the dead -- 2 Tim. 4:1. Jesus said the same thing -- John 5:28-29. Peter said that the earth would be destroyed by fire -- 2 Peter 3:12.
As I said, Vs 38 of Ez. has been fulfilled.....God is looking over the faithful, forever, just as declared. (RD)
Campbell34;59299 wrote:
The prophecy of Ezekiel has a dual meaning, in Ez. 37 God is allowing Ezekiel to see that hope is not lost simply because Israel is in captivity, as he commands him to preach to the people and provide them hope for he is sure to keep the promises that were referenced. In fact this is how Ezekiel proceeds to preach to the people...by pointing out what God has promised. The verse that you have referenced (Vs. 38) is clearly speaking of the coming Messiah (God in the flesh) who is to usher in a New Covenant for the nation of Israel, as referenced in the Verses that were provided.
Are you suggesting that Jesus was not God? That He is not capable of looking out for the people of Israel after the New Covenant comes in to effect?
The problem that you are having is the assumption that Christ is coming back to literally reign on earth for a period of 1000 years when the truth provided in the scriptures clearly tell us that Jesus has been sitting in reign of the kingdom/church for over 2000 years at this point in time. As the last days of man began when the Christ died upon the cross and such was confirmed by Peter in the very first Christian sermon ever preached. Peter clearly and distinctly informs everyone on the day of Pentecost that the last days are upon them, as was foretold in prophecy, "But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS IN THE LAST DAYS , SAITH GOD......" --Acts 2:16-17. He also pointed out that Jesus had already ascended to SPIRITUALLY sit in reign on King David's throne....just as promised. As nowhere is the Christ declared to physically reign....(Acts 2:26-36)
And indeed the Gospel was first preached to the entire nation of Israel, as they had the opportunity to come under the protection of God as promised in Ez. 38....for ever, until the last trump. You are falling to realize that Israel and the gentile nations were joined together to become one family of God, as God done away the law once the Christ had fulfilled the legal requirements thereof. Nowhere is Israel promised at some future date, such at the second coming of Jesus, salvation. The scriptures clearly tell us that there is only one way, and that is through the acceptance of Christ Jesus. God promised to destroy biblical Israel, in the physical sense if they continued to disobey His law. -- Lev. 26:27-39. He said they would be broken like a potters vessel, which cannot be whole again -- Jer. 19:11. Even Jesus made prophecy that was such, and informed the scribes and Pharisees that the very generation to which he was speaking would bring about this destruction -- Matthew 23:36. He also told his disciples the very same thing -- Matthew 24:34.
And indeed Israel was destroyed just as the prophets said, and Jesus foretold...in that very same generation, never to be made whole again. In 70 AD the Roman empire brought about the destruction of Jerusalem and the Nation of Biblical Israel was soon non-existent, just as was declared in prophecy in Jer. 31:31-36, when the Old Law departed from before God, and the New Covenant spoken of....where the law would be written on their hearts instead of on stone.
The scriptures are VERY CLEAR that Israel and the Gentiles were joined together. As I said, the prophecy about the two sticks and the one you mentioned in Ez. 38, has a dual meaning, unknown sometimes to very prophet that foretold of such. At the time of Ezekiel Israel and Judah was joined together with God looking over them, and in the time of Christ, Israel and the Gentiles were joined together...with God eternally looking over them, in the form of Christ as a shepard looks over his flock.
Notice how Peter informs us that at times the prophets of Old did not realize just what they were making prophecy about, "And we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed...." -- 11 Peter 1:19-21.
As I said, the scriptures declare that Israel and the gentile nations were made into one group to worship together forever. First the promise made by God to Israel concerning the possession of land was CONDITIONAL on the nation of Israel obeying God -- 1 Chron. 28:8. Her disobedience would cause her (physical Israel ) to be abandoned forever -- 1 Chron. 28:9.
You are presenting a case where ONLY PART OF THE SCRIPTURES are being considered...the part that suits your point of view, while ignoring the rest. And it is clearly stated that truth can only be determined by considering the ENTIRETY of God word. "The SUM of your word is TRUTH...." -- Ps. 119:160
Only though Jesus can man be saved -- Acts 4:12. Christ the only way -- John 14:6. There is no special favor toward Israel (modern). Lineage means nothing to God -- Luke 3:8 What is important is the heart, not physical lineage or circumcision -- Romans 2:28-29. The Jews have been just as guilty of sin as the gentiles -- Romans 3:9-10. THE SAME GOSPEL SAVES BOTH JEW AND GENTILE -- Romans 1:16.
THE JEWS AND THE GENTILES HAVE BEEN BROUGHT INTO ONE BODY. Reconciled into one body -- Eph. 2:11-18. The past mystery has been revealed -- Eph 3:6. THERE IS ONLY ONE BODY -- Eph. 2:11-18, and that body is the Christian Church -- Eph. 1:22-23.
There is equality in the body -- Gal. 3:22. THE LAW WHICH CREATED THE NATION OF ISRAEL WAS ONLY TEMP. UNTIL THE SEED WOULD COME -- Gal. 3:16. Jesus Christ was that seed -- Gal 3:24-25. NOW IN CHRIST WE ARE ALL ONE -- Gal. 3:25-28. Thus, by a belief in God and in Jesus as the Christ we become the descendants of Abraham and heirs to the promise -- Gal 3:29. Thus, lineage means nothing, for there is only one path to salvation.
And if you are expecting Christ to come back and establish a literal reign instead of accepting the reign that He now is sitting, you like the scribes and pharisees will be surprised as they did not understand their own law as well and was expecting a literal reign...even after Jesus told them, "My kingdom is not of this world....." -- John 18:36.
When Jesus comes back it will be to pass judgment and take the faithful to heaven, and then the end shall come. As Paul says that when he comes he will judge the living and the dead -- 2 Tim. 4:1. Jesus said the same thing -- John 5:28-29. Peter said that the earth would be destroyed by fire -- 2 Peter 3:12.
As I said, Vs 38 of Ez. has been fulfilled.....God is looking over the faithful, forever, just as declared. (RD)
Israel had the chance to follow Christ, but it is obvious they did not. The Jews today still believe in the law, and not Jesus Christ. And Chapter 38 was never fulfilled. And Israel as a nation has never worshipped Christ before or since, so I have no idea where you got that from. And the reason Jesus Christ is bringing the Jews back to Israel is to reveal to the Jews and the world who He is. You have failed to point out when Chapter 38 was fulfilled. What (year) did the armies of Gog with his allies, Persia, Ethiopia, Libya, and others attack Israel? And what year did God destroy these armies with torrential rain, hailstones, fire and brimstone? God said when these things would happen all the men on the face of the earth would shake in God's presence. When did that happen? This chapter clearly states that all these things would occur in the latter days. And for that to happen, the Jewish people would have to be back in Israel again. And that is where we are today.
Unless you can tell me when these events took place historically, it should be obvious that Chapter 38 was never fulfilled.
RED DEVIL;59322 wrote:
Israel had the chance to follow Christ, but it is obvious they did not. The Jews today still believe in the law, and not Jesus Christ. And Chapter 38 was never fulfilled. And Israel as a nation has never worshipped Christ before or since, so I have no idea where you got that from. And the reason Jesus Christ is bringing the Jews back to Israel is to reveal to the Jews and the world who He is. You have failed to point out when Chapter 38 was fulfilled. What (year) did the armies of Gog with his allies, Persia, Ethiopia, Libya, and others attack Israel? And what year did God destroy these armies with torrential rain, hailstones, fire and brimstone? God said when these things would happen all the men on the face of the earth would shake in God's presence. When did that happen? This chapter clearly states that all these things would occur in the latter days. And for that to happen, the Jewish people would have to be back in Israel again. And that is where we are today.
Unless you can tell me when these events took place historically, it should be obvious that Chapter 38 was never fulfilled.
The scriptures declare different...unless you do not believe that Christ was God in the flesh. As the Dry Bones were brought back to life and reconciled to God by taking the two sticks (The Jews and Gentiles) and making one new nation (Christianity). This is why the Apostle declares as such, "Wherefore the LAW (Old Testament) was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are ALL THE CHILDREN OF GOD BY FAITH IN CHRIST JESUS. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, THERE IS NEITHER BOND NOR FREE, THERE IS NEITHER MALE NOR FEMALE: FOR YE ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS. AND IF YE BE CHRIST'S, "then are ye Abraham's seed, AND HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE." -- Gal. 3:24-29.
It could not be much clearer. The Old Prophets were our teachers and led us to Christ in CONFORMATION of fulfilled prophecy. WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER A SCHOOL MASTER. For the Jew and the Gentile are in Christ...together. Now you are trying to draw upon the SCHOOL MASTER....after we have graduated into the NEW COVENANT OF CHRIST JESUS. If you want to talk about unfulfilled prophecy, let us reason in the book of Revelation.....some of that has already been fulfilled as well, as it is declared to show us things that must "shortly come to pass"......in a signified or symbolic manner. -- Rev. 1:1
That nation that you are so quick to call God's chosen ones....did not exist until 1947. And as I said, they have no Tribal Identity, No royal priesthood, no king, and NOWHERE in the scriptures is Israel declared to cease from existing for a period of two thousand years and then come back to life, but it is stated that they will be broken and shattered NEVER TO BE MADE WHOLE AGAIN. And you could not personally point out any one group that is more ANTI-CHRISTIAN....for good reason. With that said, I do side with the modern nation of Israel, not for some wrongly assumed position as being God's chosen people, but simply because they are a beacon of democracy in a land surrounded by religious despotism. It is our duty to help them, just as we would any other FREE NATION, that would request our help. If not, what shall we say....we pay LIP SERVICE only to the ideology of freedom? (RD)
RED DEVIL;59322 wrote:
Israel had the chance to follow Christ, but it is obvious they did not. The Jews today still believe in the law, and not Jesus Christ. And Chapter 38 was never fulfilled. And Israel as a nation has never worshipped Christ before or since, so I have no idea where you got that from. And the reason Jesus Christ is bringing the Jews back to Israel is to reveal to the Jews and the world who He is. You have failed to point out when Chapter 38 was fulfilled. What (year) did the armies of Gog with his allies, Persia, Ethiopia, Libya, and others attack Israel? And what year did God destroy these armies with torrential rain, hailstones, fire and brimstone? God said when these things would happen all the men on the face of the earth would shake in God's presence. When did that happen? This chapter clearly states that all these things would occur in the latter days. And for that to happen, the Jewish people would have to be back in Israel again. And that is where we are today.
Unless you can tell me when these events took place historically, it should be obvious that Chapter 38 was never fulfilled.
One more time, You say that the Jewish people "AS A NATION" NEVER WORSHIPED the Christ, yet we find, "Then they that gladly received the word were baptized: and the same day THERE WERE ADDED UNTO THEM ABOUT "THREE THOUSAND SOULS". And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine (the worship of Christ) and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers." -- Acts 2:41-42. Clearly these were people of Israel that accepted the New Covenant of Christ. Simply because the Jewish hierarchy never accepted the fact of Jesus' divinity you assume that no one did?
Did not Paul say that Israel always had a faithful core, and that the majority of Israel was lost that remained under law as a sacrifice so the entire world could accept salvation through faith and not the law? Paul is quoting from our "SCHOOLMASTER" the old scriptures of prophecy as he is pointing out that God will save only a remnant of Israel, "I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scriptures saith of Elijah? How he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, LORD, THEY HAVE KILLED THY PROPHETS, AND DIGGED DONE THINE ALTARS; AND I AM LEFT ALONE, AND THEY SEEK MY LIFE. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I HAVE RESERVED TO MYSELF SEVEN THOUSAND MEN, WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO THE IMAGE OF BAAL. Even so then at this present time also there is a "remnant" according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then it is no more of works (under the law); otherwise is no more grace. (if one continues under the old law). But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the "ELECTION" (those chosen by God's word, or called out) and the rest were blinded. According as it is written, GOD HATH GIVEN THEM THE SPIRIT OF SLUMBER, EYES THAT THEY SHOULD NOT SEE, AND EARS THAT THEY SHOULD NOT HEAR, UNTO THIS DAY........" -- Romans 11:1-8. No where does it say their blindness will be lifted, or the entire nation will be saved at some future date at the second coming of Christ Jesus. If it does please point out that which you and many assume.
But Paul clearly states just how they can be grafted back unto the root from which they were severed. "Boast not against the branches (which were cut off). But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. (he is saying that it is faith in God that holds the grafted unto the root....God, and not the inverse, the grafted branches holding the root, its clear that the root gives life to the branches through their faith, and unbelief would kill the root, the source of their life). Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; (as if taking a breath to consider the question), because of UNBELIEF they were broken off, and thou standest BY FAITH. Be not highminded, but FEAR. For if God SPARED NOT THE NATURAL BRANCHES (clearly pointing out they would remain lost due to unbelief and a lack of faith), take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the good-ness and SEVERITY of GOD: on them which fell (again declaring those that did not have faith as dead to God), SEVERITY; but toward thee, goodness, IF THOU CONTINUE IN HIS GOODNESS; otherwise thous ALSO shall be cut off.
And this is the verse that explains just how Israel can be grafted back into the root (which represents the truth of God's revelation). AND THEY ALSO, "if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in (again)"; FOR GOD IS ABLE TO GRAFT THEM IN AGAIN. -- Romans 11:18-23.
And I am sure you will point that when the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled they will given back their sight. But, when the time of gentiles is fulfilled, so cometh the end....the final trump. For the very next Vs. tells us that so ALL OF ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED.
According to the way your doctrine sees things, when the PRESET number of Gentiles are saved, The Jews as a whole nation will be lifted from the condition of their blindness and hardheartedness and seek the truth of God again, for as you said, right now as a whole nation they have their heart hardened against the Christ. However this ignores this simple fact, blindness cannot come in part upon a WHOLE NATION, how can one part of a whole see and leave the other part blind? This defies logic. But, however, if part of the nation believes and the other part does not, then what we have is a nation "divided" and not a whole, as blindness comes only to that part which did not believe THUS WE CANNOT HAVE THE ENTIRE NATION OF ISRAEL SAVED when the blindness is lifted, because upwards of several thousand souls of the nation of Israel were added to the ELECT on just one afternoon. (Acts 2:41). Thus you are correct that Israel as a whole never worshiped the Christ, and they never will be able to, because a majority has already been lost, and a remnant of Israel believed.......THUS, ALL OF ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED. (The faithful core, the true Israel) Paul is telling all of us how Israel was saved, not that they will be saved at some future date, as in the very next verse he explains what part of our SCHOOLMASTER leads us to this conclusion of how God is to save Israel. "And so all Israel shall be saved; (inferring that if they believe, they are capable of being grafted back in) as it is written, THERE SHALL COME OUT OF ZION THE DELIVERER (clearly speaking of Jesus in prophecy within that generation in which Paul was writing)), AND SHALL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB: FOR THIS IS MY COVENANT UNTO THEM, WHEN I SHALL TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS." -- Rom. 11:25-27.
And next He explains that it is though the Christian and their faith, this is the only way for those that are lost to gain salvation or be grafted in again. "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." and just above that, " Even so have these also now not believed, that through YOUR MERCY (the Christian), they may also may obtain mercy." -- Romans 11: 31-32.
Thus, Paul has said that not all the Jews were lost at the changing of the covenant because some through faith were saved, He for example. And that the fall of the majority showed their sins and allowed God to show equal treatment by accepting only those that did believe, whether they were Jew or Gentile. Nowhere does Paul regulate this conversion of Israel to some distant future. Nor does he state that their conversion is connected to the second coming of Jesus. Nowhere does Paul declare that it would be a complete conversion of the entire nation. He states the condition for conversion is a simple faith in Christ Jesus. Nowhere does Paul state that God would ignore the true "seed of Abraham", THE ELECT(the Christian Gal. 3:29), to focus only the Jews.
Can modern Israel be saved? Yes, by the exact same manner in which everyone is saved -- Gal. 3:25-29. This is the only way. For clearly, the ELECT of God is declared to be the Christian, not a peoples that continued to defy the will of God and did not even recognize God when he came to live among them, as they were to busy back biting and climbing in the Jewish hierarchy.....and Jesus himself called them out for such -- Matthew 23. And told them they would be cut off from God -- Matthew 23:36. Now your doctrine is suggesting that the very people that rejected God and did not even know enough about their own Law will find mercy as a whole again? Despite the fact that Christianity is declared as heirs to the promise?
And you do not consider the fact that Christianity has engulfed 1/3 the worlds population startling to the rest of the world? Nor, do you not consider that God uses the fact of the strength of faithful nations around the world as his sword of vengeance to punish the wicked( Romans 13:3-4), as startling and the fulfillment of prophecy? You are requesting historical reference, yet this nation is sitting on the fact of God's righteousness, having done His will time and time again? Are you not guilty of being just as BLIND as were the scribes and PHARISEES of the first century? (RD)
Campbell34;59323 wrote:
One more time, You say that the Jewish people "AS A NATION" NEVER WORSHIPED the Christ, yet we find, "Then they that gladly received the word were baptized: and the same day THERE WERE ADDED UNTO THEM ABOUT "THREE THOUSAND SOULS". And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine (the worship of Christ) and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers." -- Acts 2:41-42. Clearly these were people of Israel that accepted the New Covenant of Christ. Simply because the Jewish hierarchy never accepted the fact of Jesus' divinity you assume that no one did?
Did not Paul say that Israel always had a faithful core, and that the majority of Israel was lost that remained under law as a sacrifice so the entire world could accept salvation through faith and not the law? Paul is quoting from our "SCHOOLMASTER" the old scriptures of prophecy as he is pointing out that God will save only a remnant of Israel, "I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scriptures saith of Elijah? How he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, LORD, THEY HAVE KILLED THY PROPHETS, AND DIGGED DONE THINE ALTARS; AND I AM LEFT ALONE, AND THEY SEEK MY LIFE. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I HAVE RESERVED TO MYSELF SEVEN THOUSAND MEN, WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO THE IMAGE OF BAAL. Even so then at this present time also there is a "remnant" according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then it is no more of works (under the law); otherwise is no more grace. (if one continues under the old law). But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the "ELECTION" (those chosen by God's word, or called out) and the rest were blinded. According as it is written, GOD HATH GIVEN THEM THE SPIRIT OF SLUMBER, EYES THAT THEY SHOULD NOT SEE, AND EARS THAT THEY SHOULD NOT HEAR, UNTO THIS DAY........" -- Romans 11:1-8. No where does it say their blindness will be lifted, or the entire nation will be saved at some future date at the second coming of Christ Jesus. If it does please point out that which you and many assume.
But Paul clearly states just how they can be grafted back unto the root from which they were severed. "Boast not against the branches (which were cut off). But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. (he is saying that it is faith in God that holds the grafted unto the root....God, and not the inverse, the grafted branches holding the root, its clear that the root gives life to the branches through their faith, and unbelief would kill the root, the source of their life). Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; (as if taking a breath to consider the question), because of UNBELIEF they were broken off, and thou standest BY FAITH. Be not highminded, but FEAR. For if God SPARED NOT THE NATURAL BRANCHES (clearly pointing out they would remain lost due to unbelief and a lack of faith), take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the good-ness and SEVERITY of GOD: on them which fell (again declaring those that did not have faith as dead to God), SEVERITY; but toward thee, goodness, IF THOU CONTINUE IN HIS GOODNESS; otherwise thous ALSO shall be cut off.
And this is the verse that explains just how Israel can be grafted back into the root (which represents the truth of God's revelation). AND THEY ALSO, "if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in (again)"; FOR GOD IS ABLE TO GRAFT THEM IN AGAIN. -- Romans 11:18-23.
And I am sure you will point that when the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled they will given back their sight. But, when the time of gentiles is fulfilled, so cometh the end....the final trump. For the very next Vs. tells us that so ALL OF ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED.
According to the way your doctrine sees things, when the PRESET number of Gentiles are saved, The Jews as a whole nation will be lifted from the condition of their blindness and hardheartedness and seek the truth of God again, for as you said, right now as a whole nation they have their heart hardened against the Christ. However this ignores this simple fact, blindness cannot come in part upon a WHOLE NATION, how can one part of a whole see and leave the other part blind? This defies logic. But, however, if part of the nation believes and the other part does not, then what we have is a nation "divided" and not a whole, as blindness comes only to that part which did not believe THUS WE CANNOT HAVE THE ENTIRE NATION OF ISRAEL SAVED when the blindness is lifted, because upwards of several thousand souls of the nation of Israel were added to the ELECT on just one afternoon. (Acts 2:41). Thus you are correct that Israel as a whole never worshiped the Christ, and they never will be able to, because a majority has already been lost, and a remnant of Israel believed.......THUS, ALL OF ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED. (The faithful core, the true Israel) Paul is telling all of us how Israel was saved, not that they will be saved at some future date, as in the very next verse he explains what part of our SCHOOLMASTER leads us to this conclusion of how God is to save Israel. "And so all Israel shall be saved; (inferring that if they believe, they are capable of being grafted back in) as it is written, THERE SHALL COME OUT OF ZION THE DELIVERER (clearly speaking of Jesus in prophecy within that generation in which Paul was writing)), AND SHALL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB: FOR THIS IS MY COVENANT UNTO THEM, WHEN I SHALL TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS." -- Rom. 11:25-27.
And next He explains that it is though the Christian and their faith, this is the only way for those that are lost to gain salvation or be grafted in again. "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." and just above that, " Even so have these also now not believed, that through YOUR MERCY (the Christian), they may also may obtain mercy." -- Romans 11: 31-32.
Thus, Paul has said that not all the Jews were lost at the changing of the covenant because some through faith were saved, He for example. And that the fall of the majority showed their sins and allowed God to show equal treatment by accepting only those that did believe, whether they were Jew or Gentile. Nowhere does Paul regulate this conversion of Israel to some distant future. Nor does he state that their conversion is connected to the second coming of Jesus. Nowhere does Paul declare that it would be a complete conversion of the entire nation. He states the condition for conversion is a simple faith in Christ Jesus. Nowhere does Paul state that God would ignore the true "seed of Abraham", THE ELECT(the Christian Gal. 3:29), to focus only the Jews.
Can modern Israel be saved? Yes, by the exact same manner in which everyone is saved -- Gal. 3:25-29. This is the only way. For clearly, the ELECT of God is declared to be the Christian, not a peoples that continued to defy the will of God and did not even recognize God when he came to live among them, as they were to busy back biting and climbing in the Jewish hierarchy.....and Jesus himself called them out for such -- Matthew 23. And told them they would be cut off from God -- Matthew 23:36. Now your doctrine is suggesting that the very people that rejected God and did not even know enough about their own Law will find mercy as a whole again? Despite the fact that Christianity is declared as heirs to the promise?
And you do not consider the fact that Christianity has engulfed 1/3 the worlds population startling to the rest of the world? Nor, do you not consider that God uses the fact of the strength of faithful nations around the world as his sword of vengeance to punish the wicked( Romans 13:3-4), as startling and the fulfillment of prophecy? You are requesting historical reference, yet this nation is sitting on the fact of God's righteousness, having done His will time and time again? Are you not guilty of being just as BLIND as were the scribes and PHARISEES of the first century? (RD)
A long post, yet you have not answered one of my questions. Future Israel will be saved, yet most of the past Jews have rejected the only one who could save them.
1. If Ezekiel 38 was fulfilled, when did God destroy Gogs army with a torrential rain, hailstones, fire and brimstone?
2. What year did Persia, Ethiopia, Libya, and other nations attack Israel?
3. When did all the men on the face of the Earth shake in Gods presence when He defended Israel when Gog attacked them?
If Ezekiel 38 was trully fulfilled, this should be easy question to answer.
RED DEVIL;59384 wrote:
A long post, yet you have not answered one of my questions. Future Israel will be saved, yet most of the past Jews have rejected the only one who could save them.
1. If Ezekiel 38 was fulfilled, when did God destroy Gogs army with a torrential rain, hailstones, fire and brimstone?
2. What year did Persia, Ethiopia, Libya, and other nations attack Israel?
3. When did all the men on the face of the Earth shake in Gods presence when He defended Israel when Gog attacked them?
If Ezekiel 38 was trully fulfilled, this should be easy question to answer.
Asked and answered. Just how many times was the nation of Israel attacked in its vast history, and in fact enslaved? How many times did God come to its rescue? Yet, you have failed to address things that are clearly and distinctly written. You are ignoring the CONTEXT of Ezekiel with its prophecies against the nations of its times, not in the vast future. You ignore that person and place is fixed in the prophecy. The prophecy is made against a person named Gog who lives in the land of Magog. Ez. 38:2-39. Gog is clearly a prince or a ruler. Your conclusion is not based on any evidence found in the scriptures but speculation that Gog might be a root word for Magog, which then can be read....the land of Gog. Which is clearly taken out of context, as Gog is declared to be a PRINCE. In fact, Ez. 38:17 tells us that Gog is mentioned in prophecy in the scriptures before but the term Gog is only found here and in Rev. in prophecy. This means that Gog was mentioned before, but by a different name. Magog contains 3 cities Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal.
Magog was descendant form Japeth, along with Tubal and Meshech -- Genesis 10:2. From Magog came Scythians and the Goths. From Meshech came Cappadocians. God states that He had hooks in their mouth...in other words under control. -- 11 Kings 19:28. He will turn back their army.
The army was composed of mercenary soldiers from other lands. Persia, descendants of Madai, son of Japeth. Ethiopia and Libya. Put, son of Ham was founder of Libya. These countries once aided Egypt the land were Israel was held captive. -- Ez. 27:10, 30:5.
Daniel said they would aide a country from the north -- Daniel 11:40-43. This is clearly a reference to the army of Alexander the Great having his empire split up 4 ways.
More later.....but the scriptural history is there, if you but look and read for yourself instead of believing every preacher that makes speculation about the now current Nation of Russia....etc. (RD)
Back again. More on Ezekiel 38 referring to some future conflict. The very Idea that this conflict is to take place in some distant future is amusing in the fact that they are directly mentioned as using swords and riding in on horses. "....thou shalt come into the land that that is brought back from the sword..." -- Ez. 38:8, and "And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, ALL OF THEM RIDING UPON HORSES, a great company, and a mighty army: " Ez. 38:15.
God has a history of issuing similar warnings of an impending attack, as He made a warning to Egypt -- Jer. 46:3-4. To Babylon -- Jer. 51:12
The battle is to take place after Israel comes back from captivity -- Vs. 8
The noted historian and British theologian Adam Clarke notes there was an invasion made upon Egypt by Chambyses of Persia just twelve years after Israel came back from captivity.
Consider the word "Storm" mentioned in Ez. 38:9. The king of the north was said to come like a "whirlwind" -- Daniel 11:40. There is a record of an earlier attack upon Israel as well -- Jer. 4:3-11. Babylon attacking Jerusalem -- Joel 2:1-11.
It is clearly stated that Israel was to be attacked from the north by a ruler going to another primary destination in hopes of a conquest, Gog will then get the idea (a terrible idea) to attack the nation of Israel, assuming them to be unprepared and in the way, a quick victory -- Ez. 38:10-14.
Again this time frame, 12 years after captivity, match that of recorded history when Antiochus who in many raids on Egypt took advantage of the entire land upon which he marched. Daniel 11:24-25, 31-32, 36.
Gog is said to have done what Solomon warned not to do -- Prov. 3:29-30.
There is much more record of this attempt upon Israel by the hired mercenaries from the north, found in history and the scriptures.
Back after further research, now that you have brought it up....I find it a very interesting study. We shall see what Josephus has to say about such. (RD)
Campbell34;59386 wrote:
Asked and answered. Just how many times was the nation of Israel attacked in its vast history, and in fact enslaved? How many times did God come to its rescue? Yet, you have failed to address things that are clearly and distinctly written. You are ignoring the CONTEXT of Ezekiel with its prophecies against the nations of its times, not in the vast future. You ignore that person and place is fixed in the prophecy. The prophecy is made against a person named Gog who lives in the land of Magog. Ez. 38:2-39. Gog is clearly a prince or a ruler. Your conclusion is not based on any evidence found in the scriptures but speculation that Gog might be a root word for Magog, which then can be read....the land of Gog. Which is clearly taken out of context, as Gog is declared to be a PRINCE. In fact, Ez. 38:17 tells us that Gog is mentioned in prophecy in the scriptures before but the term Gog is only found here and in Rev. in prophecy. This means that Gog was mentioned before, but by a different name. Magog contains 3 cities Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal.
Magog was descendant form Japeth, along with Tubal and Meshech -- Genesis 10:2. From Magog came Scythians and the Goths. From Meshech came Cappadocians. God states that He had hooks in their mouth...in other words under control. -- 11 Kings 19:28. He will turn back their army.
The army was composed of mercenary soldiers from other lands. Persia, descendants of Madai, son of Japeth. Ethiopia and Libya. Put, son of Ham was founder of Libya. These countries once aided Egypt the land were Israel was held captive. -- Ez. 27:10, 30:5.
Daniel said they would aide a country from the north -- Daniel 11:40-43. This is clearly a reference to the army of Alexander the Great having his empire split up 4 ways.
More later.....but the scriptural history is there, if you but look and read for yourself instead of believing every preacher that makes speculation about the now current Nation of Russia....etc. (RD)
No, this is more like asked, an unanswered. Gog was not the only name tossed out there. I ask when did Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya all band together to attack Israel? The Bible has given us two full chapters speaking of this battle. This will not be a foot note lost to history. Gods intervention is so powerful, that the entire earth shakes when he destroys their armies. (ALL THE MEN THAT ARE UPON THE FACE OF THE EARTH, SHALL SHAKE AT MY PRESENCE.)
The Bible tells us it will take Israel 7 months to bury all the dead. Also Ezekiel tells us, that this mighty army will be buried in the valley of Hamongog.
Hear again, this event has never happened. This event according to the Bible will occur in the latter years. And the land that the Jews will retake, the Bible states is from the ancient times. If this prophecy was speaking of Israel of the past, the Bible would not be saying their land recaptured was from (ANCIENT TIMES). As stated in Ezekiel 36:2. And this event occurs after the Jews have returned from a worldwide exile. When the Jews were free to leave Babylon, most of them stayed. Only after the Roman conquest, was such an exile realized, and only today do we have Jewish people returning to Israel from all over the world.
It is doubtful that the writers of the Bible would of even had the words to describe modern warfare. So they used the words that they understood.
And I might add, there is nothing in past history that could be pointed to, so that one now could say this prophecy was fulfilled. In Ezekiel 38 it states that this prophecy would be fulfilled in the (latter years). In Ezekiel chapter 36 verse 2 God states that in this time, "even the (ANCIENT) high places are our's in possession:" The fact that God uses the word (ANCIENT) should reveal to the reader, that this event would occur long after the prophecy was written. And according to the prophecy, when Gog attacks Israel at this time, he will be destroyed by God. This has never occured in the past.
When any writing is addressed as symbolic it is very clearly stated as such either in contextual structure or direct language. A Biblical example of such would be found in the the very first chapter in the book of Revelations, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS; and he sent and "SIGNIFIED" (in the original Greek, meaning symbolic or hidden message) it by his angel unto his servant John." -- Rev. 1:1. There is nothing mentioned as being symbolic in this particular passage of scriptures (Ez. 38:15) as there was with the symbolism of the two sticks as they when taken in context are taken and explained to represent Israel and Judah (Ez. 37:15-22), saying that he will take the two and make one nation. And there is nothing in context or wording that would indicate that the men would come on horses as meaning any other thing than what is recorded.
And yes there most certainly is SCRIPTURE that when taken in context shows that this prophecy was fulfilled before the Christ died on the cross.
The pouring out of God's Spirit speaks of the future age of prophecy......That day of Pentecost was when such was completely fulfilled as as spoken in Joel, Daniel, Jer., Ez....etc, as it ushered in the last days of man on this earth. Joel 2:28, and Acts 2:17, as this is when Jesus ascended to the throne of David, to protect His people for ever....until that day when the end comes, (Acts 2:26-27) when the Lord places his enemies under his foot and then gives the kingdom back to father God. (1 Cor. 15:20-28). Nowhere is there mention of any 1000 year literal reign....except in the Book of Revelation which is intended to be studied by SERVANTS OF CHRIST in order to determine just what this signified book means. It is amusing that someone can cherry pick one passage from an entire book that is self professed to be symbolism and declare a literal meaning to such. Especially when God has used the terminology of 1000 years to simply mean an extended period of time in past Biblical examples.
You have yet to address my concerns on your position of doctrine. Just how is the Christ to physically reign when God has forbidden his lineage from ever doing such? As the Christ himself declares that his kingdom is not of this earth -- "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here' or 'See There!' for indeed the kingdom of God is within you." -- Luke 17:20-21. Or for instance "My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered up to the Jews; but, my kingdom is not from here." -- John 18:36.
Or, "Assuredly, I say to you that there are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the kingdom of God present with power." -- Mark 9:1. The kingdom of God has been here on earth in a symbolic nature from the time that Peter used the keys to that kingdom(Which Jesus had given to him -- Matt. 16:18-19) to open the door thereof with the first gospel sermon ever preached in the age of Christianity, when he informed the people just what was needed to enter in that kingdom and take up citizenship -- Acts 2:38. The kingdom has been here for more than 1000 years with the Christ in reign, and when he comes back it will not be to establish another but to judge the quick and the dead. -- 2 Tim 4:1 My dear friend and brother in Christ, do not wait in false hope of a coming kingdom, experience the kingdom that is now existing, and truly worship in Spirit and in TRUTH. For are we not admonished to be sanctified in the Truth? And is not God's word truth? -- John 17:17. (RD)
The fact is God will reign on a new earth as stated in Revelation chapter 21 verse 1. (And I saw a new heaven and a (new earth:) for the first heaven and (the first earth were passed away;) and there was no more sea.
And this is the thrid time I am asking you these questions.
1. When in past history did God defend Israel when Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with other nations attacked them?
2. When in past history did God destroy their armies with an overflowing rain, of great hailstones, fire, and brimstone?
3. When in past history did every man on the face of the earth shake in Gods presence, when God defended Is
4. When in past history were the (mountains thrown down) after God defeated this army?
5. When in past history did it take Israel 7 months to bury all their dead?
6. And can you show us the graves of this might army which Israel was to bury in the valley of Hamongog?
The fact is, you can't answer any of these question. And if you were honest with yourself, you would agree that none of this ever happened. And if you really believed the Bible, you would have to agree that all of this would have to occur in the future, if the Bible is true to it's Word.
I have yet to see someone so pompous and full of themselves and still profess to be a Christian. You declare that no one has answered any of your misguided questions, yet they have been answered with book, chapter and verse. If you do not want to accept the answer that is clearly written for our edification because of some personal preconceived ideology of indoctrination in the man made theory of premillennialism that takes its misconception from a book of symbolism and tries to apply literal meanings to such...that would be a personal problem.
You have yet to even address any of the numerous passages of non symbolic script that proves that it is impossible for such a theory to be possible. Yet, you try to invert the tables and say I have yet to answer any of your assumed questions and when scripture is presented that clearly debunks your THEORY it is not REASONED but IGNORED.
There are many flaws to the theory that you have falsely embraced.
1. It places Jesus on a literal physical throne
It must declare that Jesus was rejected as a failure while on earth, as even you in your own words declared that the Jews did not believe Jesus was the Christ, yet it was those that were expecting a literal physical kingdom that rejected the Christ, not the faithful core of God's followers, you are only continuing with the exact same mistake made by the scribes and Pharisees. As they also did not know their own professed scriptures and was expecting a literal physical reign as well.
The scriptures tell us the common Jewish people openly accepted Jesus and welcomed him into Jerusalem -- Matt. 21:9-17. The details of what they, the people, said are recorded -- Mark 11:9-10. Your theory ignores the fact that the people actually tried to make a physical King out of Jesus and He refused. At the feeding of the 5000 he speaks of the kingdom to come -- Luke 9:11. Yet, he continually avoided the people trying to make him a literal king -- John 6:15. He declared that his kingdom was not of this world, yet you want to paint a picture of him sitting on a literal throne and leading an army of angels for a period of some 1000 years -- John 18:36.
It was for good reason that Jesus could not be a literal physical king, as he was a direct LEGAL descendant of King David through his adopted father Joseph. And in particularly this lineage ran through the cursed descendant son of King David "Jechoniah" -- Matthew 1:11. About whom God had this to say, "Thus saith the LORD, Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David and ruling any more in Judah." -- Jeremiah 22:30
Yet we find that Jesus fulfilled the prophecy of the Christ and did ascend to the throne of David, but it was not a literal ascension but a Spiritual ASCENSION as declared in Acts 2:26-36, thus having Jesus fulfill the prophecy of making the stone which was cast away into the chief cornerstone.
Thus, your theory IGNORES God's direct decree and prophecy about Coniah, the last king of Israel. As your theory presents more question than answers as that is all that you seem to be able to do.....ask questions, for certainly you have failed to answer any.
Jeremiah says that the nation of Israel WOULD "NEVER" be made whole again -- Jer. 19:11. And even the Christ said the kingdom would be taken from the Jews and given to another (the Christian nation combined of both Jew and gentile) -- Matthew 21:43.
Your theory denies the fact that Jesus was successful in establishing his kingdom while he was here. Yet he declares that it will come in that very generation -- Mark 9:1. And Peter was given the keys to that kingdom -- Matthew 16:18-19. Thus, the church and the kingdom are synonymously used to mean the same. (And it seems that You like the rest of the world cannot see the forest for the trees, as this kingdom encompasses 1/3 the worlds population) The saved are in the kingdom -- Col. 1:13. And clearly John was already residing in the kingdom when he drafted the book of revelations, "I John who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation (stating clearly and distinctly that the TRIBULATION had already began), AND IN THE KINGDOM....." -- Rev. 1:9. But I would not suppose that you would consider having your native country burned from underneath you, taken completely over by a conquering nation (Rome) with demands that prohibit your faithful worship to the Christ, under penalty of being crucified or thrown into an arena to be placed to death in some pompous game of entertainment? This was not very much of any kind of tribulation....was it?
You take the phrase "1000 year reign" literally by picking it from amongst an entire passage of symbolic language -- Rev. 20:2-9.
When in the past this "symbolic term" has been used to mean, "ALL" -- Ps. 50:10. You attempt to use Daniel 7:13-14, to describe this coming 1000 year reign, when clearly this prophecy is speaking of a kingdom "that is NEVER ENDING".
Jesus is already at the Fathers right hand -- Heb. 12:2. God has already placed all things (except Himself) under the power of Jesus -- 1 Cor. 15:27. In Matthew 28:18, Jesus himself declares as much.
Jesus is to reign until death is conquered -- 1 Cor. 15:25-26.
You and your preconceived theory wants to alter the end as described in scripture. While you declare that Jesus is coming back to establish a literal kingdom, the scriptures declare that when he comes back his kingdom ends and he turns it back over to Father God. -- 1 Cor. 15:24.
You would have to have two different resurrections for your theory, the good at the beginning of the kingdom and the bad at the end of the kingdom when judgment comes. The Scriptures speak of only one resurrection, not two. -- John 5:28-29. You would present 1 Thess. 4:13-18 in an attempt to debunk this previous passage, as this passage speaks of a resurrection of the righteous but there is nothing in the language that precludes a resurrection of the wicked at the same time. You ignore the fact that man indeed has a second resurrection if they are a member in good standing of the kingdom of God. That is if they have been physically baptized and resurrected to walk anew in life...free from sin, BEING "REBORN" and dead to their past sins -- Romans 6:1-11.
The greatest flaw to your position and theories would be to declare that God..aka Jesus has failed in his mission while on earth because he was rejected by the Jewish hierarchy. You are saying that man has the power to thwart the will of God.....amusing, that you would declare God to be all powerful, yet declare him a failure at the same time. :dunno: (RD)
