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If Jesus was God ...

 
 
RED DEVIL cv
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Sep, 2008 01:08 pm
@Campbell34,
Campbell34;59497 wrote:
The fact is God will reign on a new earth as stated in Revelation chapter 21 verse 1. (And I saw a new heaven and a (new earth:) for the first heaven and (the first earth were passed away;) and there was no more sea.

And this is the thrid time I am asking you these questions.

1. When in past history did God defend Israel when Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with other nations attacked them?

2. When in past history did God destroy their armies with an overflowing rain, of great hailstones, fire, and brimstone?

3. When in past history did every man on the face of the earth shake in Gods presence, when God defended Israel?

4. When in past history were the (mountains thrown down) after God defeated this army?

5. When in past history did it take Israel 7 months to bury all their dead?

6. And can you show us the graves of this might army which Israel was to bury in the valley of Hamongog?

The fact is, you can't answer any of these question. And if you were honest with yourself, you would agree that none of this ever happened. And if you really believed the Bible, you would have to agree that all of this would have to occur in the future, if the Bible is true to it's Word.


Again you answer nothing, but continue to ask questions that apparently you do not know the answer to, and when answered it blows right over your head, as you go around in circles. I have been more than patient with your continued inability to even attempt to reason in scriptural facts, as you ask questions about things not written, but there has certainly been more than one instance where God disposed of Israel's enemies with supernatural circumstance in the fashion of the miraculous. "And it came to pass, as they fled from before Israel, and were in the going down to Beth-horon, that the Lord cast down great stones from heaven upon them unto Azekah, and they died: they were which hail-stones than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword." -- Joshua 10:11.

Again tell us how in the 21st century the invading armies are going to come in riding on horseback? Clearly this is not presented in symbolism in contextual makeup or words. -- Ez. 38:15. And just how is it that the later days of mankind did not begin with the death of the Christ when an apostle declared that this that which was prophesied "....that in the latter days..." -- Acts 2:16-17. Instead of asking me to disprove something that is not written, why do you not prove by use of the scriptures that your misguided interpretation is correct. Simply because something is not written in the Holy Scriptures does not mean that it did not happen, "And many other signs truly did Jesus (God in the flesh) in the presence of his disciples, which ARE NOT WRITTEN in this book:" -- John 20:30

All the evidence that IS WRITTEN concludes that the prophecy was to happen after the Israelites were released from captivity, and before the Christ fulfilled the requirements of the Old Law. Ez. 38:17 tells us that Gog was mentioned in prophecy before Ezekiel did. Magog contains the cities of Meshech and Tubal and are mentioned earlier in this same book -- Ez. 36:26.
Tubal is the old name for "Cappadocia" which now the current nation of Georgia. Magog was a descendant of Japheth, along with Tubal and Mechech -- Genesis 10:2. Cappadocians (Tubalians) were quoted as having hooks in their mouths as placed by God (or under control) -- 11 Kings 19:28 and Ez. 29:4, "But, I will put hooks in thy jaws,......".

This army is composed of mercenary soldiers from other lands such as Persia, the descendants of Madai, Ethiopia and Libya, as Put was the son of Ham (Noah's son) and founded Libya. These countries once aided Egypt, the then current captor of Israel -- Ez. 27:10, 30:5. And Daniel also prophesies that they would aid an invader from the north -- Daniel 11:40-43.

As was said, THE EVIDENCE points in the direction that this has been fulfilled, and so far you have presented nothing but questions to present a premillennialist theory while providing no answers to the questions asked. (RD)
Campbell34
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Sep, 2008 04:55 pm
@RED DEVIL cv,
RED DEVIL;59850 wrote:
Again you answer nothing, but continue to ask questions that apparently you do not know the answer to, and when answered it blows right over your head, as you go around in circles. I have been more than patient with your continued inability to even attempt to reason in scriptural facts, as you ask questions about things not written, but there has certainly been more than one instance where God disposed of Israel's enemies with supernatural circumstance in the fashion of the miraculous. "And it came to pass, as they fled from before Israel, and were in the going down to Beth-horon, that the Lord cast down great stones from heaven upon them unto Azekah, and they died: they were which hail-stones than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword." -- Joshua 10:11.

Again tell us how in the 21st century the invading armies are going to come in riding on horseback? Clearly this is not presented in symbolism in contextual makeup or words. -- Ez. 38:15. And just how is it that the later days of mankind did not begin with the death of the Christ when an apostle declared that this that which was prophesied "....that in the latter days..." -- Acts 2:16-17. Instead of asking me to disprove something that is not written, why do you not prove by use of the scriptures that your misguided interpretation is correct. Simply because something is not written in the Holy Scriptures does not mean that it did not happen, "And many other signs truly did Jesus (God in the flesh) in the presence of his disciples, which ARE NOT WRITTEN in this book:" -- John 20:30

All the evidence that IS WRITTEN concludes that the prophecy was to happen after the Israelites were released from captivity, and before the Christ fulfilled the requirements of the Old Law. Ez. 38:17 tells us that Gog was mentioned in prophecy before Ezekiel did. Magog contains the cities of Meshech and Tubal and are mentioned earlier in this same book -- Ez. 36:26.
Tubal is the old name for "Cappadocia" which now the current nation of Georgia. Magog was a descendant of Japheth, along with Tubal and Mechech -- Genesis 10:2. Cappadocians (Tubalians) were quoted as having hooks in their mouths as placed by God (or under control) -- 11 Kings 19:28 and Ez. 29:4, "But, I will put hooks in thy jaws,......".

This army is composed of mercenary soldiers from other lands such as Persia, the descendants of Madai, Ethiopia and Libya, as Put was the son of Ham (Noah's son) and founded Libya. These countries once aided Egypt, the then current captor of Israel -- Ez. 27:10, 30:5. And Daniel also prophesies that they would aid an invader from the north -- Daniel 11:40-43.

As was said, THE EVIDENCE points in the direction that this has been fulfilled, and so far you have presented nothing but questions to present a premillennialist theory while providing no answers to the questions asked. (RD)


I ASK QUESTIONS ABOUT THINGS NOT WRITTEN? WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

Ezekiel 38:20 The mountains will be overturned, the cliffs will crumble and (AND EVERY WALL WILL FALL TO THE GROUND)

This was stated 2600 years ago. (IT WAS WRITTEN DOWN)

God told Ezekiel 2600 years ago, that this would happen in the (LATTER YEARS)

(So don't come here trying to say THIS HAPPENED BEFORE EZEKIEL WROTE IT).

NOW, WHEN IN THE LAST 2600 YEARS WAS THIS FULFILLED? When in the last 2600 years did God knock down all the mountains on earth and every wall?

(AND IF GOD FULFILLED THAT PROPHECY, WHY DO WE STILL SEE THE MOUNTAINS TODAY?)
0 Replies
 
Campbell34
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Oct, 2008 09:45 pm
@RED DEVIL cv,
RED DEVIL;59850 wrote:
Again you answer nothing, but continue to ask questions that apparently you do not know the answer to, and when answered it blows right over your head, as you go around in circles. I have been more than patient with your continued inability to even attempt to reason in scriptural facts, as you ask questions about things not written, but there has certainly been more than one instance where God disposed of Israel's enemies with supernatural circumstance in the fashion of the miraculous. "And it came to pass, as they fled from before Israel, and were in the going down to Beth-horon, that the Lord cast down great stones from heaven upon them unto Azekah, and they died: they were which hail-stones than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword." -- Joshua 10:11.

Again tell us how in the 21st century the invading armies are going to come in riding on horseback? Clearly this is not presented in symbolism in contextual makeup or words. -- Ez. 38:15. And just how is it that the later days of mankind did not begin with the death of the Christ when an apostle declared that this that which was prophesied "....that in the latter days..." -- Acts 2:16-17. Instead of asking me to disprove something that is not written, why do you not prove by use of the scriptures that your misguided interpretation is correct. Simply because something is not written in the Holy Scriptures does not mean that it did not happen, "And many other signs truly did Jesus (God in the flesh) in the presence of his disciples, which ARE NOT WRITTEN in this book:" -- John 20:30

All the evidence that IS WRITTEN concludes that the prophecy was to happen after the Israelites were released from captivity, and before the Christ fulfilled the requirements of the Old Law. Ez. 38:17 tells us that Gog was mentioned in prophecy before Ezekiel did. Magog contains the cities of Meshech and Tubal and are mentioned earlier in this same book -- Ez. 36:26.
Tubal is the old name for "Cappadocia" which now the current nation of Georgia. Magog was a descendant of Japheth, along with Tubal and Mechech -- Genesis 10:2. Cappadocians (Tubalians) were quoted as having hooks in their mouths as placed by God (or under control) -- 11 Kings 19:28 and Ez. 29:4, "But, I will put hooks in thy jaws,......".

This army is composed of mercenary soldiers from other lands such as Persia, the descendants of Madai, Ethiopia and Libya, as Put was the son of Ham (Noah's son) and founded Libya. These countries once aided Egypt, the then current captor of Israel -- Ez. 27:10, 30:5. And Daniel also prophesies that they would aid an invader from the north -- Daniel 11:40-43.

As was said, THE EVIDENCE points in the direction that this has been fulfilled, and so far you have presented nothing but questions to present a premillennialist theory while providing no answers to the questions asked. (RD)


The army that you speak of did not fulfill the prophecy.

Ezekiel states that God would destroy this army. That did not happen. The prophecy states the Jews would bury the armies dead and this would take 7 months. This did not happen. The prophecy states that God would level the mountains and every wall. How come we see every mountain and wall still standing? The prophecy states that God would have the army buried in the vally of Hamon-gog. There are no graves of this fallen army in Hamon-gog.

The evidence does not point of the prophecy being fulfilled, because the prophecy remains unfulfilled.
SWORD of GOD
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 05:44 am
@Campbell34,
If Jesus was God ...

Then How come Jesus (peace be upon him) said explicitly in the following passage that he and the Father (God) who sent him are TWO PEOPLE !!!?

[John 8:16-18]:
"16 Yet even if I should judge, my judgment would be valid, because it is not I alone who judges, but I and the one who sent me.
17 In your own law it is written that the testimony of TWO people is valid.
18
SWORD of GOD
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Oct, 2008 07:54 am
@SWORD of GOD,
The World's Oldest Surviving Bible Proves Thousnads of Alterations !

[SIZE="2"]The rival to the Bible [/SIZE]

BBC NEWS
By Roger Bolton
Monday, 6 October 2008
BBC NEWS | Magazine | The rival to the Bible


What is probably the oldest known Bible is being digitised, reuniting its scattered parts for the first time since its discovery 160 years ago. It is markedly different from its modern equivalent. What's left out?

The world's oldest surviving Bible is in bits.

For 1,500 years, the Codex Sinaiticus lay undisturbed in a Sinai monastery, until it was found - or stolen, as the monks say - in 1844 and split between Egypt, Russia, Germany and Britain.

Now these different parts are to be united online and, from next July, anyone, anywhere in the world with internet access will be able to view the complete text and read a translation.

For those who believe the Bible is the inerrant, unaltered word of God, there will be some very uncomfortable questions to answer. It shows there have been thousands of alterations to today's bible.

The Codex, probably the oldest Bible we have, also has books which are missing from the Authorised Version that most Christians are familiar with today - and it does not have crucial verses relating to the Resurrection.

Anti-Semitic writings Discrepancies:

Had this remained in subsequent versions, "the suffering of Jews in the subsequent centuries would, if possible, have been even worse", says the distinguished New Testament scholar Professor Bart Ehrman.
And although many of the other alterations and differences are minor, these may take some explaining for those who believe every word comes from God.

Faced with differing texts, which is the truly authentic one?

Mr Ehrman was a born again Bible-believing Evangelical until he read the original Greek texts and noticed some discrepancies.

The Bible we now use can't be the inerrant word of God, he says, since what we have are the sometimes mistaken words copied by fallible scribes.

"When people ask me if the Bible is the word of God I answer 'which Bible?'"

The Codex - and other early manuscripts - omit some mentions of ascension of Jesus into heaven, and key references to the Resurrection, which the Archbishop of Canterbury has said is essential for Christian belief.

Other differences concern how Jesus behaved. In one passage of the Codex, Jesus is said to be "angry" as he healed a leper, whereas the modern text records him as healing with "compassion".

Also missing is the story of the woman taken in adultery and about to be stoned - until Jesus rebuked the Pharisees (a Jewish sect), inviting anyone without sin to cast the first stone.

Nor are there words of forgiveness from the cross. Jesus does not say "Father forgive them for they know not what they do".

Fundamentalists, who believe every word in the Bible is true, may find these differences unsettling.

But the picture is complicated. Some argue that another early Bible, the Codex Vaticanus, is in fact older. And there are other earlier texts of almost all the books in the bible, though none pulled together into a single volume.

Many Christians have long accepted that, while the Bible is the authoritative word of God, it is not inerrant. Human hands always make mistakes.

"It should be regarded as a living text, something constantly changing as generation and generation tries to understand the mind of God," says David Parker, a Christian working on digitising the Codex.

Others may take it as more evidence that the Bible is the word of man, not God.
Numpty
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Oct, 2008 09:06 am
@SWORD of GOD,
SWORD of GOD;62056 wrote:

Others may take it as more evidence that the Bible is the word of man, not God.


So it's the same as the Koran, thanks for clearing that up. :thumbup:
The Professor
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Nov, 2008 06:47 pm
@Numpty,
[SIZE="2"][SIZE="3"]AUTHENTICITY OF THE QUR'AN [/SIZE][/SIZE]
[SIZE="2"]AND HOW IT CAME TO BE WRITTEN[/SIZE]


(Extracted from the Book "The Bible, The Qur'an and Science"
By: Dr. Maurice Bucaille)


Thanks to its undisputed authenticity, the text of the Qur'an holds a unique place among the books of Revelation, shared neither by the Old nor the New Testament. In the first two sections of this work, a review was made of the alterations undergone by the Old Testament and the Gospels before they were handed down to us in the form we know today. The same is not true for the Qur'an for the simple reason that it was written down at the time of the Prophet; we shall see how it came to be written, i.e. the process involved.

In this context, the differences separating the Qur'an from the Bible are in no way due to questions essentially concerned with date. Such questions are constantly put forward by certain people without regard to the circumstances prevailing at the time when the Judeo-Christian and the Qur'anic Revelations were written; they have an equal disregard for the circumstances surrounding the transmission of the Qur'an to the Prophet. It is suggested that a Seventh century text had more likelihood of coming down to us unaltered than other texts that are as many as fifteen centuries older. This comment, although correct, does not constitute a sufficient reason; it is made more to excuse the alterations made to the Judeo-Christian texts in the course of centuries than to underline the notion that the text of the Qur'an, which was more recent, had less to fear from being modified by man.

In the case of the Old Testament, the sheer number of authors who tell the same story, plus all the revisions carried out on the text of certain books from the pre-Christian era, constitute as many reasons for inaccuracy and contradiction. As for the Gospels, nobody can claim that they invariably contain faithful accounts of Jesus' words or a description of his actions strictly in keeping with reality. We have seen how successive versions of the texts showed a lack of definite authenticity and moreover that their authors were not eyewitnesses.

Also to be underlined is the distinction to be made between the Qur'an, a book of written Revelation, and the hadiths, collections of stories concerning the actions and sayings of Muhammad (peace be upon him). Some of the Prophet's companions started to write them down from the moment of his death. As an element of human error could have slipped in the collection had to be resumed later and subjected to rigorous criticism so that the greatest credit is in practice given to documents that came long after Muhammad (peace be upon him). Their authenticity varies, like that of the Gospels. Not a single Gospel was written down at the time of Jesus (they were all written long after his earthly mission had come to an end), and not a single collection of hadiths was drawn up at the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him).

The situation is very different for the Qur'an. As the Revelation progressed, the Prophet and the believers following him recited the text by heart and it was also written down by the scribes in his following. It therefore starts off with two elements of authenticity that the Gospels do not possess. This continued up to the Prophet's death. At a time when not everybody could write, but everyone was able to recite, recitation afforded a considerable advantage because of the double-checking possible when the definitive text was compiled. The Qur'anic Revelation was made by Archangel Gabriel to Muhammad (peace be upon him). It took place over a period of more than twenty years of the Prophet's life, beginning with the first verses of Surah 96, then resuming after a three-year break for a long period of twenty years up to the death of the Prophet in 632 A.D., i.e. ten years before Hegira and ten years after Hegira.

The following was the first Revelation (Surah 96, verses 1 to 5):

. Read: In the name of thy Lord who created,
Who created man from something which clings
Read! Thy Lord is the most Noble
Who taught by the pen
Who taught man what he did not know.


Professor Hamidullah notes in the Introduction to his French translation of the Qur'an that one of the themes of this first Revelation was the praise of the pen as a means of human knowledge" which would "explain the Prophet's concern for the preservation of the Qur'an in writing".

Texts formally prove that long before the Prophet left Mecca for Medina (i.e. long before Hegira), the Qur'anic text so far revealed had been written down. We shall see how the Qur'an is authentic. How it came to be written is this. We know that Muhammad (peace be upon him) and the Believers who surrounded him were accustomed to reciting the revealed text from memory. It is therefore inconceivable for the Qur'an to refer to fact that did not square with reality because the latter could so easily be checked with people in the Prophet's following, by asking the authors of the transcription. Four Surahs dating from a period prior to Hegira refer to the writing down of the Qur'an before the Prophet left Mecca in 622


(Surah 80, verses 11 to 16):

By no means! Indeed it is a message of instruction
Therefore whoever wills, should remember
On leaves held in honor
Exalted, purified
In the hands of scribes
Noble and pious.


Yusuf Ali in the commentary to his translation, 1934, wrote that when the Revelation of this Surah was made, forty-two or forty-five others had been written and were kept by Muslims in Mecca (out of a total of 114):

- Surah 85, verses 21 and 22:

Nay, this is a glorious reading
On a preserved tablet.


- Surah 56, verses 77 to 80:

This is a glorious reading
In a book well kept
Which none but the purified teach
This is a Revelation from the Lord of the Worlds.


- Surah 25, verse 5:

They said: Tales of the ancients which he has caused to be written and they are dictated to him morning and evening.

Here we have a reference to the accusations made by the Prophets enemies who treated him as an imposter. They spread the rumor that stories of Antiquity were being dictated to him and he was writing them down or having them transcribed (the meaning of the word is debatable, but one must remember that Muhammad peace be upon him was illiterate). However this may be, the verse refers to this act of making a written record which is pointed out by Muhammad's enemies themselves.

A Surah that came after Hegira makes one last mention of the leaves on which these divine instructions were written:

- Surah 98, verses 2 and 3:

An apostle from God recites leaves
Kept pure where are decrees right and straight.


The Qur'an itself therefore provides indications as to the fact that it was set down in writing at the time of the Prophet. It is a known fact that there were several scribes in his following, the most famous of whom, Zaid Ibn Thabit, has left his name to posterity.

In the preface to his French translation of the Qur'an (1971), Professor Hamidullah gives an excellent description of the conditions that prevailed when the text of the Qur'an was written, lasting up until the time of the Prophet's death:

"The sources all agree in stating that whenever a fragment of the Qur'an was revealed, the Prophet called one of his literate companions and dictated it to him, indicating at the same time the exact position of the new fragment in the fabric of what had already been received... Descriptions note that Muhammad (peace be upon him) asked the scribe to reread to him what had been dictated so that he could correct any deficiencies...

Another famous story tells how every year in the month of Ramadan, the Prophet would recite the whole of the Qur'an (so far revealed) to Gabriel..., that in the Ramadan preceding Muhammad's death, Gabriel had made him recite it twice... It is known how since the Prophet's time, Muslims acquired the habit of keeping vigil during Ramadan, and of reciting the whole of the Qur'an in addition to the usual prayers expected of them. Several sources add that Muhammad's scribe Zaid was present at this final bringing-together of the texts. Elsewhere, numerous other personalities are mentioned as well."

Extremely diverse materials were used for this first record; parchment leather, wooden tablet, camel's scapula, soft stone for inscriptions, etc.

At the same time however, Muhammad (peace be upon him) recommended the faithful to learn the Qur'an by heart. They did this for a part if not all of the text recited during prayers. Thus there were .Hafizun. who knew the whole of the Qur'an by heart and spread it abroad. The method of doubly preserving the text both in writing and by memorization proved to be extremely precious.

Not long after the Prophet's death (632), his successor Abu Bakr, the first Caliph of Islam, asked Muhammad's former head scribe, Zaid Ibn Thabit, to make a copy; this he did. On Omar's initiative (the future second Caliph), Zaid consulted all the information he could assemble at Medina (the witness of the Hafizun, copies of the Book written on various materials belonging to private individuals), all with the object of avoiding possible errors in transcription. Thus an extremely faithful copy of the Book was obtained.

The sources tell us that Caliph Omar, Abu Bakr's successor in 634, subsequently made a single volume (mushaf) that he preserved and gave on his death to his daughter Hafsa, the Prophet's widow.

The third Caliph of Islam, Uthman, who held the caliphate from 644 to 655, entrusted a commission of experts with the preparation of the great recension that bears his name. It checked the authenticity of the document produced under Abu Bakr which had remained in Hafsa's possession until that time. The commission consulted Muslims who knew the text by heart. The critical analysis of the authenticity of the text was carried out very rigorously. The agreement of the witnesses was deemed necessary before the slightest verse containing debatable material was retained. It is indeed known how some verses of the Qur'an correct others in the case of prescriptions: this may be readily explained when one remembers that the Prophet's period of apostolic activity stretched over twenty years (in round figures). The result is a text containing an order of Surahs that reflects - so it is thought today - the order followed by the Prophet in his complete recital of the Qur'an during Ramadan, as mentioned above.

One might perhaps ponder the motives that led the first three Caliphs, especially Uthman, to commission collections and recensions of the text. The reasons are in fact very simple: Islam's expansion in the very first decades following Muhammad's death was very rapid indeed and it happened among peoples whose native language was not Arabic. Absolutely essential steps had to be taken to ensure the spread of a text that retained its original purity: Uthman's recension had this as its objective.

Uthman sent copies of the text of the recension to the centers of the Islamic Empire and that is why, according to Professor Hamidullah copies attributed to Uthman exist in Tashkent and Istanbul. Apart from one or two possible mistakes in copying, the oldest documents known to the present day, that are to be found throughout the Islamic world, are identical; the same is true for documents preserved in Europe (there are fragments in the Bibliotheque Nationale in parts which, according to the experts, date from the Eighth and Ninth centuries A.D., i.e. the Second and Third Hegirian centuries). The numerous ancient texts that are known to be in existence all agree except for very minor variations which do not change the general meaning of the text at all. If the context sometimes allows more than one interpretation, it may well have to do with the fact that ancient writing was simpler than that of the present day.

The 114 Surahs were arranged in decreasing order of length; there were nevertheless exceptions. The chronological sequence of the Revelation was not therefore respected. In the majority of cases however, this sequence is known. A large number of descriptions are mentioned at several points in the text, sometimes giving rise to repetitions. Very frequently a passage will add details to a description that appears elsewhere in an incomplete form. Everything connected with modern science is, like many subjects dealt with in the Qur'an, scattered throughout the book without any semblance of classification.
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