If Jesus was God ...

@SWORD of GOD,

I assume the above is directed at me, but what is the first paragraph in reference to?

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@Reagaknight,

Reagaknight;13917 wrote:

Seems like I've missed out on all the Catholic-bashing fun here.

chuckc, it is part of Catholic doctrine not to allow those not in communion with the Catholic church to recieve communion. Communion is the body and blood of Christ, physically, he is represented in it. Therefore, it is probably imperative that those who are not prepared to recieve it, for example, those not part of the Church or in communion with it, not to recieve it. Most protestant denominations consider it as only a symbol.

Thanks for the clarification regarding receiving communion in the Catholic Church, also for your explanation of the term "universal" regarding Catholicism. I can understand this policy, however, it is the elitist attitude of Catholic Church that I primarily disagree with. This is my perception.

Campbell wrote:

"Most religions will tell you that only by being good can you earn salvation. The Christian faith is different because it states that know one will ever be good enouth to earn salvation, and your best works before the Throne of God are nothing more than filthy rags. In the Christian faith, good works only show how sincere you are, yet these works will not earn you salvation. Salvation comes only to them that accept Gods gift to man that comes to us when we invite Jesus Christ into our life as Lord and Saviour. It was Christ death on the cross that will cover our sin, and it is only His death that can do this."

Thank you Campbell for clarifying the basics of Christianity. Seems a bit defeatist, that no one will ever be good enough to earn salvation?, or does that mean that salvation can only come through faith in Jesus Christ and through his death and resurrection. Seems a bit exclusive, but then again that is the Christian view. I would argue that most religions believe their way is the "only way". Thus, we get conflict.

Do you think it is possible to define Christianity in even simpler terms? or other religions....I would love to hear some ideas.

Maybe....."Belief in something larger than yourself and respect others."

I do realize this is a general statement.

The spirit behind my statement.....We can find basic commonalities amongst religions, and by using those basic and simple terms we can begin to develop religious tolerance. Focusing on the similiarities between religious thought can be the foundation for understanding among different groups.

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@SWORD of GOD,

I'd like know your ideas of the elitist attitude of the Catholic Church? Just curious, I'm not saying you're wrong or being rude.

Campbell is simply talking about Protestant Christianity. Catholicism requires good works for salvation. However, what is so bad about recognizing the imperfection of humans?

I think such a blanket statement cannot work.

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@Reagaknight,

Reagaknight;13948 wrote:

I'd like know your ideas of the elitist attitude of the Catholic Church? Just curious, I'm not saying you're wrong or being rude.

Well, in my opinion, while I understand the policy of sharing in the Holy Communion is exclusively reserved for people who have been confirmed in the Catholic Church. Why should you deny anyone to share that experience despite religious denomination? I support the opinion that Christ welcomed all in the truest sense. And if we follow His teachings and claim to be followers of the risen Christ then should we be excluding people in the most integral part of the Catholic mass? In my opinion, we should not.

Regarding the denial of communion i am speaking of a personal experience at a Catholic Mass.

I do know a well respected Deacon in the Catholic Church. And what makes me respect this man is his true devotion to humankind. He has told me that his superiors ordered him to restrict his community services, to only those who are Catholic. The Deacon exploded and refused and continues to administer work for the benefit of all in his parish.

And, when I have attended Catholic mass, the homliy is more often than not dispersed with the same elitist mentality. Hard to define this one. Of course, some of that may include my own perception.

"Campbell is simply talking about Protestant Christianity. Catholicism requires good works for salvation. However, what is so bad about recognizing the imperfection of humans?"

Please do not take the following comments as rude nor disrespectful but... "you" must "earn" salvation. Seems to be putting and American spin on religion. Again, not meant to offend, but rather explore opinion.

I believe to be imperfect is to be human. Nothing bad or good in that recognition. I think it becomes bad when people are judged by others based on those imperfections.

I think such a blanket statement cannot work.

Certainly blanket statments can be vague, misleading and quite often lead to labeling groups based on actions of individuals.

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@SWORD of GOD,

Quote:

Well, in my opinion, while I understand the policy of sharing in the Holy Communion is exclusively reserved for people who have been confirmed in the Catholic Church. Why should you deny anyone to share that experience despite religious denomination? I support the opinion that Christ welcomed all in the truest sense. And if we follow His teachings and claim to be followers of the risen Christ then should we be excluding people in the most integral part of the Catholic mass? In my opinion, we should not.

Christ also advocated baptism and becoming part of the Church. In order to recieve communion, you must understand and appreciate it. The fact that it is the most integral part of Mass means that it should be reserved for Catholics, as it is a sign of faith to recieve it. If the person really wants to recieve, they should just become Catholic. Unfortunately, you can't have it both ways.

IMO, it's wrongto follow a religion you aren't totally commited to and believe in.

I suppose any such restriction would have the type of community service playing a big part in the decision, but if that happened, I would say it's wrong, certainly by Catholic standards.

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@Reagaknight,

"Christ also advocated baptism and becoming part of the Church. In order to recieve communion, you must understand and appreciate it."

In order to receive it, you must go to communion class and recieve it for the first time during a 'first communion" ceremony. As is typical, this is done when the candidate is in second grade, typically age seven.

"The fact that it is the most integral part of Mass means that it should be reserved for Catholics, as it is a sign of faith to recieve it."

Again, this position supports my opinion of the "elite" Catholic Church.

"If the person really wants to recieve, they should just become Catholic. Unfortunately, you can't have it both ways"

'just' become catholic. So ascribe to a defintive religious doctrine based on participating in communion. (I think you mean receiving Christ as your savior through the Eucharist)

Both ways....should I take that as choosing what docrine you adhere to based on personal convenience?

"IMO, it's wrongto follow a religion you aren't totally commited to and believe in."

Totally committed meaning agreeing with EVERY single doctrine of that Church.

"I suppose any such restriction would have the type of community service playing a big part in the decision, but if that happened, I would say it's wrong, certainly by Catholic standards."

I completely agree with you there.

Again, these opinions are not intended to offend. Just my views.

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@Silverchild79,

What does going to Communion mean to a non Catholic?
What do they want? To see that the host tastes like rice paper?

Receiving communion is symbolic and for a non Catholic it would really mean nothing.

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@SWORD of GOD,

In a communion class, you would learn what it is all about, so technically, I'm still right.

Totally commited meaning you advocate your religion as the true religion, otherwise it is not worthwhile to follow it. In this sense, almost all religions are 'elitist'.

z0z0 said everything else that needs to be said.

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@SWORD of GOD,

true. props to z0z0. I think the only disagreement we have is that:

If, learning is what you meant by "understand and appreciate it". Then yes, technically speaking.

By "true" religion - you mean your personal chosen path to God?

A non-Catholic may not care, but it is that "attitude" of exclusivity that bothers me not the act in itself. I think this is the crux of our disagreement. And at the core of my opinion.

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@SWORD of GOD,

Rather, understand and appreciate it through learning about it.

So, if you aren't convinced your religion is the way to salvation, why would you follow it. It doesn't matter if it's nice or not, that's just the only way it makes sense.

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@SWORD of GOD,

Okay, I can understand that.

As an individual, yes, follow your religious convictions through (thick and thin). But do you see your religion and the "only" path to God? Or the only path for you?

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@SWORD of GOD,

I think it is the best path to salvation. I think Orthodox and those in communion with the Catholic church have a pretty good shot. Anyone else, no.

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@SWORD of GOD,

Again, the best for who? best for you? It seems as though you are implying your way is the best way for everyone?

So the Orthodox followers have a pretty good shot?

Anyone else, too numerous too mention, are excluded, and in your opinion, what is their fate?

And who exactly will be there to allow them to receive salvation? Is your definition of salvation this, "being saved from something, such as suffering or the punishment of sin" Or does it mean something else to you?

Again, these opinions are not meant to offend, but allow free thought.

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@SWORD of GOD,

No, I'm saying that, as a Catholic, I believe that the Catholic faith is the only one that could definitely lead to salvation. Is that really too much? This seems to be what everyone else thinks about their faith.

Eastern Orthodox churches split with the Catholic Church for what I think we can now recognize as bad reasons.

I talk about salvation as the Christian concept of going to Heaven or Purgatory then Heaven as opposed to Hell.

Those who are excluded will go to Hell, unfortunately. Maybe not. Maybe there are some Christians who will go to heaven besides Catholic/Orthodox, or maybe Jews, though I doubt it.

I am not saying I dislike these people or that they deserve it, it is jst official Church doctrine. Of course, it wouldn't be fair to believers if nonbelievers also got into heaven, but this is different. Anyway, I'm not condemning anyone, just stating what I believe.

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@SWORD of GOD,

I respect you and your beliefs. I look forward to continuing these discussions later for now I must sign off. Best wishes.

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@Silverchild79,

The "Best" religion is the one that best recognizes what God is and what his message is.

What we need is Jesus to come back and set up a blog and this time he could write first hand what the message is.

My next comment might be provoking people but - tell me what you think.

I don't think that the purpose of religion is to "Worship God" - as if God is on a pedestal and he needs the worship of subservient beings. I think if this is what God wants then he is a rather juvenile God.

I think the true nature of Jesus' message was not about worshiping God but about how to live a God life according to Jesus' teachings. Jesus was a role model that we should follow.

Let me ask this - Who will sooner get into Heaven (or who is the better Christian)?

A. A devote worshiper who knows the Bible inside and out, goes to Church every Sunday, works for the Church and donates money to the Church. The individual does nothing bad but does not go out of his way to do anything good outside the Church. This man follows the word of the law.
or
B. A Person that rarely goes to Church, but has God's message in his heart even though he occasionally does something wrong but when he sees someone in need he goes out of his way to help out. A person that puts a smile on other people's faces even though he might occasionally lie, cheat or steal. A person that gives even when he does not have a lot to give. This man follows the spirit of the law.

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@SWORD of GOD,

Biblical proof indicates to me that the Catholic Church is most legitimate. Jesus build his church with Peter, and gave him authority to do what he would to build it, and peter was first Pope.

I doubt that anyone can look at God from a modern standpoint and correctly pass judgement. That's what you're doing. God is infinite and eternal, and cannot be characterized by our perception, as we are finite and short-lived.

We should livethe way God wants us to and worship him as well; they are each part of eachother and cannot be done without the other.

I've had a similar question posed to me before. You're supposed to say person B or make some sort of weak argument and be attacked by the person who asks it, or that's how it worked out last time. It was a bit less general so I got out of it easily.

Anyway, A's the better Christian and person. Lying, cheating and stealing can hardly be redeemed by making people smile. The people he lies to cheats or steals from are certainly not smiling at the thought of him. Once or twice are mistakes but 'occasionally' seems to conflict with your notion that he has God's message in his heart. He steals and also gives? Odd. He's an okay person but won't go to heaven as far as I can see because he can't keep God's laws like going to Church (keep holy the Sabbath) and even breaks them (Thou shalt not steal).

Person A may make it to heaven. Though he doesn't do many charitable things outside of Church, his donations may make it to charitable causes in some shape. Working for the Church can include charitable church functions.

Overall, this information is way too general to decide. God wouldn't condemn someone without looking at every minute detail of their life.

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@Silverchild79,

How about if I classify the two people in this way.

A. Virtuous - does not sin and knows the Bible and worships God - but is selfish/self-centered

B. Minor Sinner - Does not worship frequently but is quite selfless.

Which person is the better Christian?

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@SWORD of GOD,

That's actually even more general and I stick to my original point on it.

Anyway, A is the better Christian, even though I suppose B would definitely be the better person. B doesn't seem to care about being a better Christian.

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@Silverchild79,

My opinion is that B is the better Christian.

Jesus' message was more about living a good life rather than worshiping God.

Look at all the sinners that Jesus helped.
Jesus' message was to Love they Neighbor.
He told us to Turn the Other Cheek.

How often did Jesus tell us to go to Church and Worship?

Church and worship are just institutional dogma.

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