If Jesus was God ...

@Greatest I am cv,

Greatest I am;37937 wrote:

wvpeach;37796 wrote:
greatest

I do not think God makes any mistakes. let me repeat this so maybe you will get it as I have said it again and again.

[SIZE="3"] God does not make mistakes ...... No way greatest[/SIZE]

God designed this world as imperfect as it is to be just what it is.

To make it really clear. God made evil and good, God made perfect and imperfect in this world. We are not told we will have perfection in this world and time.

We are told that one day ( soon I think) the world as we know it and all its systems will end then God will give us a new earth and it will be perfect.:headbang::headbang:

But here and now we are living in a far from perfect world and God made it this way , he knows what he is doing , God has a plan all the imperfection is for a purpose.

Listen to your words.
Would you look God in the face and tell Him He creates incompetence. Are you that blind to His Perfection.
He purposely creates imperfections. What hog wash.

He just wants to be the hero and come and save us. from His own incompetence. We should really love and honor Him for screwing up so that he could fix it later.

If your earthly father screws up your life and returns later to fix things; would you love and respect Him.

Get serious here please.

Regards
DL

God does not make mistakes, yet His creation that was given free will does.
Don't blame God for what humans do with their free will. You also will have to give an account for your mistakes, don't blame God for your errors, take responsibility for yourself. It is man's incompetence not Gods, it is man that builds H-Bombs, it is man that starts wars, it is man that rebels against God.
It is man that is screwing up, and it is man that will blame God for their own actions, just like you are doing now.

2 Replies

@Campbell34,

campbell

The bible tells us that God hardened the heart of Pharaoh, did Pharaoh have a choice in that.

Satan entered into Judas the bible tells us when he betrayed Jesus , do you think Judas would have chose that had he had a choice.

In job we are told that Satan was allowed to kill job's children in mass , would Job have chosen that if he could have stopped it.

Two placed in the bible we have the story of the lying spirit where it is said the Lord has a discussion in heaven with all the heavenly beings about who will lie to the King to get him to go to war where he will meet his death.

You need to study a little more campbell, God does not always allow man to choose his own destiny , many times God has already chosen that destiny for the man.

I bet in any of the instances I gave above the human involved would have made other choices than what the bible tells us God forced them into.

Campbell34;38111 wrote:

Greatest I am;37937 wrote:

God does not make mistakes, yet His creation that was given free will does.
Don't blame God for what humans do with their free will. You also will have to give an account for your mistakes, don't blame God for your errors, take responsibility for yourself. It is man's incompetence not Gods, it is man that builds H-Bombs, it is man that starts wars, it is man that rebels against God.
It is man that is screwing up, and it is man that will blame God for their own actions, just like you are doing now.

2 Replies

@wvpeach,

Read the story of the lying spirit in the bible twice to make sure it is known campbell .

Then come back and tell me that man starts wars. That is true and untrue God also starts wars and God says he puts the kings and judges that rule this world in their positions . Why does he do this? Because he is directing the path of this earth to a large degree. At least towards the end it will meet because he decreed its end long ago.

0 Replies

@JesusDiedForU,

JesusDiedForU;37990 wrote:

BECAUSE Jesus is God, there is a choice to believe or not too. Many people CHOOSE to reject Jesus and embrace evil.

Come on... lets keep this thread going to 1000 posts ; )

The content should be what we look for.

If Jesus were God then He cannot die on the cross for mankind.
No redeemer, no savior.
If He were God then incest is what gave Him birth. Not what a God would do.

There should not be a mediator required between God and souls. Jesus was out to lunch if He thought that He was to be between God and souls.

Regards
DL

0 Replies

@Campbell34,

Campbell34;38111 wrote:

Greatest I am;37937 wrote:

God does not make mistakes, yet His creation that was given free will does.
Don't blame God for what humans do with their free will. You also will have to give an account for your mistakes, don't blame God for your errors, take responsibility for yourself. It is man's incompetence not Gods, it is man that builds H-Bombs, it is man that starts wars, it is man that rebels against God.
It is man that is screwing up, and it is man that will blame God for their own actions, just like you are doing now.

If God is to take the benefits of being the creator of all then He must also take the blame.

If I invent something then I am responsible for all that it does, not just what I fell I want to accept. God is no better.

If the reality that He created is so flimsy that any man can destroy it then He obviously made it too weak.

If He allowed His Perfect reality to loose it's Perfection then He is back sliding.

Are you saying that God is a back slider? You must be if you show Him loosing the Perfection He began with.

Regards
DL

1 Reply

@Greatest I am cv,

greatest

You keep posting the same thing over and over . Would you like to expand on this conversation just a little?

For instance answer me this question , what would you call a child born in the sudan to genocide who lives two months trying to be sustained from the milk of its starving mother only to die having its head bashed in by the butt of a gun during ethnic cleansing?

Would you call the child perfect?

Would you call its mother perfect?

Would you call the idiot that killed the child perfect?

Would you call the country the child was born in perfect?

Would you call the creator who allowed the child to be born into this situation perfect?

expand on the above questions and then maybe we can talk further , as it is you sound just like a broken record. ( no offence , but you do)

2 Replies

@wvpeach,

The man-made bible states that the Man has an issue (period) just like woman issue (period). This adds to the long list of clear evidences of the fabrications in the bible:

[Leviticus 15:1-8] :

15:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses and to Aaron, saying,

15:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When any man hath a running issue out of his flesh, because of his issue he is unclean.

15:3 And this shall be his uncleanness in his issue: whether his flesh run with his issue, or his flesh be stopped from his issue, it is his uncleanness.

15:4 Every bed, whereon he lieth that hath the issue, is unclean: and every thing, whereon he sitteth, shall be unclean.

15:5 And whosoever toucheth his bed shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even.

15:6 And he that sitteth on any thing whereon he sat that hath the issue shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even.

15:7 And he that toucheth the flesh of him that hath the issue shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even.

15:8 And if he that hath the issue spit upon him that is clean; then he shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even."

How can anyone trust this fabricated book!!

0 Replies

@wvpeach,

wvpeach;38118 wrote:

campbell

The bible tells us that God hardened the heart of Pharaoh, did Pharaoh have a choice in that.

Satan entered into Judas the bible tells us when he betrayed Jesus , do you think Judas would have chose that had he had a choice.

In job we are told that Satan was allowed to kill job's children in mass , would Job have chosen that if he could have stopped it.

Two placed in the bible we have the story of the lying spirit where it is said the Lord has a discussion in heaven with all the heavenly beings about who will lie to the King to get him to go to war where he will meet his death.

You need to study a little more campbell, God does not always allow man to choose his own destiny , many times God has already chosen that destiny for the man.

I bet in any of the instances I gave above the human involved would have made other choices than what the bible tells us God forced them into.

All humans have the ability to make choices, and when evil is introduced to evil men God knows their evil nature will come first. God knows that evil men require little influnce to create more evil. Men who seek the will of God can resist evil, thats why the Bible tells us, resist the Devil and he will flee from you. Evil men will not resist the Devil, but are encouraged by him. God does not rob men of their free will in order to send them to Hell. Pharoahs heart was hardened because he was an evil man. Had Pharoah love the Lord, he never would of lost his army. Had Judas loved God he never would of betrayed him. Evil enters into all people, yet people who love God resist evil.
As far as Job, many people have lost family members because of evil, and most of us have little control over such events, so how is Job any different from the rest of us?

2 Replies

@Campbell34,

Have you read the story of the lying spirit in the bible campbell?

Campbell34;38206 wrote:

wvpeach;38118 wrote:
campbell

The bible tells us that God hardened the heart of Pharaoh, did Pharaoh have a choice in that.

Satan entered into Judas the bible tells us when he betrayed Jesus , do you think Judas would have chose that had he had a choice.

In job we are told that Satan was allowed to kill job's children in mass , would Job have chosen that if he could have stopped it.

Two placed in the bible we have the story of the lying spirit where it is said the Lord has a discussion in heaven with all the heavenly beings about who will lie to the King to get him to go to war where he will meet his death.

You need to study a little more campbell, God does not always allow man to choose his own destiny , many times God has already chosen that destiny for the man.

I bet in any of the instances I gave above the human involved would have made other choices than what the bible tells us God forced them into.

All humans have the ability to make choices, and when evil is introduced to evil men God knows their evil nature will come first. God knows that evil men require little influnce to create more evil. Men who seek the will of God can resist evil, thats why the Bible tells us, resist the Devil and he will flee from you. Evil men will not resist the Devil, but are encouraged by him. God does not rob men of their free will in order to send them to Hell. Pharoahs heart was hardened because he was an evil man. Had Pharoah love the Lord, he never would of lost his army. Had Judas loved God he never would of betrayed him. Evil enters into all people, yet people who love God resist evil.
As far as Job, many people have lost family members because of evil, and most of us have little control over such events, so how is Job any different from the rest of us?

1 Reply

@wvpeach,

wvpeach;38209 wrote:

Have you read the story of the lying spirit in the bible campbell?

Yes a perfect example where God sent a strong delusion so evil men would believe a lie. And God does this when He deals with men that donot love Him.

0 Replies

@SWORD of GOD,

[SIZE="2"]St. Paul The Root of Christian Missionary Deception said in the Bible: [/SIZE]

[SIZE="3"] "But if the truth of God through my lie abounded unto his glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner?" [ROMANS 3:7][/SIZE]

1 Reply

@SWORD of GOD,

Sword

You have taken the scripture you quoted and as many do not included the whole chapter with it. Paul is not saying he is lying in scripture , Paul is talking about the old theory that 2 wrongs do not make a right. Or that the means to which a end is gotten to does not justify the ends.

Its obvious you are a muslim. Surely you realize that we serve the same God , so what's your beef with Christianity?

If you care to explain.

SWORD of GOD;38252 wrote:

[SIZE="2"]St. Paul The Root of Christian Missionary Deception said in the Bible: [/SIZE]

[SIZE="3"] "But if the truth of God through my lie abounded unto his glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner?" [ROMANS 3:7][/SIZE]

1 Reply

@wvpeach,

wvpeach;38253 wrote:

Sword

You have taken the scripture you quoted and as many do not included the whole chapter with it. Paul is not saying he is lying in scripture , Paul is talking about the old theory that 2 wrongs do not make a right. Or that the means to which a end is gotten to does not justify the ends.

Its obvious you are a muslim. Surely you realize that we serve the same God , so what's your beef with Christianity?

If you care to explain.

The passage is crystal clear and I do understand your state of denial as a deceived christian but your denial won't alter or cover the TRUTH.

And here is one more proof that the bible was just personal judgment of Paul:

Bible is personal judgment of Paul: " Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: but I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be trustworthy."- ( I Corinthians 7:25)

BTW.. we are not serving the same God. We -Muslims- worship the true One God alone, The Creator, who created the Universe. You worship Jesus, a human being who had been created by God and made him a messenger.

0 Replies

@SWORD of GOD,

sword he said he had no commandment of God , that he was giving his opinion.

Ah well you did not answer my questions at all , you just replied irrationally just like a christian fanatic would do proving that you are no better than what you say you fight against.

0 Replies

@wvpeach,

wvpeach;38160 wrote:

greatest

You keep posting the same thing over and over . Would you like to expand on this conversation just a little?

For instance answer me this question , what would you call a child born in the sudan to genocide who lives two months trying to be sustained from the milk of its starving mother only to die having its head bashed in by the butt of a gun during ethnic cleansing?

Would you call the child perfect?

Would you call its mother perfect?

Would you call the idiot that killed the child perfect?

Would you call the country the child was born in perfect?

Would you call the creator who allowed the child to be born into this situation perfect?

expand on the above questions and then maybe we can talk further , as it is you sound just like a broken record. ( no offence , but you do)

Yes they are all Perfect.
To deny them their Perfection we would need to say that God did not give them Perfect souls. If we say this then God is not Perfect and therefore not God.
If there is a God, and there is, then we have no choice but to give us all Perfection-- otherwise there can be no God.

If God started with Perfection then to not be seen as a back slider, He must maintain the Perfection that He started with and He must be able to return and find this Perfection at any point in time.
If not then He would be a false God.

We must see ourselves as Perfect for whatever we are here for.
We can evolve to a better Perfection this is certain, but we must do so within the limits enforced by God.

If you believe then you must believe in God's inherent Perfection or you are believing in a false God.
Who wants to believe in an imperfect God?
No one.

Give Him His due or walk away and follow a false God.
Believe in a Perfect God or believe in one who just can't seem to do things the right way and one who must return to reboot us over and over again. A full blown failure.

What will it be, is your God Perfect or not?
Are His works Perfect or not?
Hard questions I know but give us your answer please.

Regards
DL

2 Replies

@Greatest I am cv,

Sword and others.

Does your God create souls Perfect or does He create them imperfect?
When He provides our natures, are these natures to be followed or are we supposed to fight our God given natures?

Regards
DL

1 Reply

@Greatest I am cv,

I have already given you my answer many times greatest.

search the posts for it again.

Greatest I am;38264 wrote:

Yes they are all Perfect.
To deny them their Perfection we would need to say that God did not give them Perfect souls. If we say this then God is not Perfect and therefore not God.
If there is a God, and there is, then we have no choice but to give us all Perfection-- otherwise there can be no God.

If God started with Perfection then to not be seen as a back slider, He must maintain the Perfection that He started with and He must be able to return and find this Perfection at any point in time.
If not then He would be a false God.

We must see ourselves as Perfect for whatever we are here for.
We can evolve to a better Perfection this is certain, but we must do so within the limits enforced by God.

If you believe then you must believe in God's inherent Perfection or you are believing in a false God.
Who wants to believe in an imperfect God?
No one.

Give Him His due or walk away and follow a false God.
Believe in a Perfect God or believe in one who just can't seem to do things the right way and one who must return to reboot us over and over again. A full blown failure.

What will it be, is your God Perfect or not?
Are His works Perfect or not?
Hard questions I know but give us your answer please.

Regards
DL

0 Replies

@Greatest I am cv,

Greatest I am;38267 wrote:

Sword and others.

Does your God create souls Perfect or does He create them imperfect?
When He provides our natures, are these natures to be followed or are we supposed to fight our God given natures?

Regards
DL

ALLAH says in the Noble Quran:

"And (remember) when your Lord brought forth from the Children of Adam, from their loins, their seed (or from Adam's loin his offspring) and made them testify as to themselves (saying): "Am I not your Lord?" They said: "Yes! We testify," lest you should say on the Day of Resurrection: " Verily, we have been unaware of this."

Or lest you should say: "It was only our fathers aforetime who took others as partners in worship along with Allah, and we were (merely their) descendants after them; will You then destroy us because of the deeds of men who practiced Al-Batil (i.e. polytheism and committing crimes and sins, invoking and worshipping others besides Allah)?"
[Quran 7: 172-173]

Moreover, Allah said :

"Verily, We have created man in toil." [Quran 20: 4]
.
.
"And shown him (man) the two ways (good and evil)" [Quran 20: 10]

Also, Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:

[SIZE="2"]Narrated Abu Huraira : Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him) said, "Every child is born with a true faith of Islam (i.e. to worship none but Allah Alone) but his parents convert him to Judaism, Christianity or Magainism, as an animal delivers a perfect baby animal. Do you find it mutilated?" [/SIZE]

1 Reply

@SWORD of GOD,

"Say: O People of the Scripture (Jews & Christians)! Come to an agreement between us and you: that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for Lords besides Allah. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they who have surrendered (unto him). (Qur'an)

[SIZE="2"]To Every Christian, Please Ask Yourself...[/SIZE]

[SIZE="2"]TRINITY: [/SIZE]

According to most Christians, Jesus was God-incarnate, full man and full God. Can the finite and the infinite be one? "To be full" God means freedom from finite forms and from helplessness, and to be "full man" means the absence of divinity.

1. To be son is to be less than divine and to be divine is to be no one's son. How could Jesus have the attributes of sonship and divinity altogether?

2. Christians assert that Jesus claimed to be God when they quote him in John 14:9: "He that has seen me has seen the Father". Didn't Jesus clearly say that people have never seen God, as it says in John 5:37: "And the father himself which has sent me, has borne witness of me. You have NEITHER HEARD HIS VOICE AT ANY TIME NOR SEEN HIS SHAPE"?

3. Christians say that Jesus was God because he was called Son of God, Son of Man, Messiah, and "saviour". Ezekiel was addressed in the Bible as Son of Man. Jesus spoke of "the peace makers" as Sons of God. Any person who followed the Will and Plan of God was called SON OF GOD in the Jewish tradition and in their language (Genesis 6:2,4; Exodus 4:22; Psalm 2:7; Romans 8:14). "Messiah" which in Hebrew means "God's anointed" and not "Christ", and "Cyrus" the person is called "Messiah" or "the anointed". As for "saviour", in II KINGS 13:5, other individuals were given that title too without being gods. So where is the proof in these terms that Jesus was God when the word son is not exclusively used for him alone?

4. Christians claim that Jesus acknowledged that he and God were one in the sense of nature when he says in John 10:30 "I and my father are one". Later on in John 17:21-23, Jesus refers to his followers and himself and God as one in five places. So why did they give the previous "one" a different meaning from the other five "ones"?

5. Is God three-in-one and one in three simultaneously or one at a time?

6. If God is one and three simultaneously, then none of the three could be the complete God. Granting that such was the case, then when Jesus was on earth, he wasn't a complete God, nor was the "father in Heaven" a whole God. Doesn't that contradict what Jesus always said about His God and our God in heaven, his Lord and our Lord ? Does that also mean that there was no complete god then, between the claimed crucifixion and the claimed resurrection?

7. If God is one and three at a time, then who was the God in heaven when Jesus was on earth? Wouldn't this contradict his many references to a God in Heaven that sent him?

8. If God is three and one at the same time, who was the God in Heaven within three days between the claimed crucifixion and the claimed resurrect ion?

9.10. If Jesus was God, why did he tell the man who called him "good master" not to call him "good" because accordingly, there is none good but his God in Heaven alone?

11. Why do Christians say that God is three-in-one and one in three when Jesus says in Mark 12:29: "The Lord our God is one Lord" in as many places as yet in the Bible?

12. If belief in the Trinity was such a necessary condition for being a Christian, why didn't Jesus teach and emphasize it to the Christians during his time? How were those followers of Jesus considered Christians without ever hearing the term Trinity? Had the Trinity been the spinal cord of Christianity, Jesus would have emphasized it on many occasions and would have taught and explained it in detail to the people.

13. Christians claim that Jesus was God as they quote in John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". This is John speaking and not Jesus. Also, the Greek word for the first occurrence of God is HOTHEOS which means "the God" or "God" with a capital "G", while the Greek word for its second occurrence is "TONTHEOS", which means "a god " or "god" with a small "g". Isn't this dishonesty and inconsistency on the part of those translating the Greek Bible? ? Isn't such quotation in John 1:1 recognized by every Christian scholar of the Bible to have been written by a Jew named Philo Alexandria way before Jesus and John?

14. Wasn't the word "god" or "TONTHEOS" also used to refer to others as well as in II Corinthians 4:4 "(and the Devil is) the god of this world" and in Exodus 7:1 "See , I have made thee (Moses ) a god to Pharaoh"?

0 Replies

@Campbell34,

Campbell34;38206 wrote:

wvpeach;38118 wrote:
campbell

The bible tells us that God hardened the heart of Pharaoh, did Pharaoh have a choice in that. End Quote,
None needed as God decided it. And Pharo wasn't a believer of the Jewish God.

Satan entered into Judas the bible tells us when he betrayed Jesus , do you think Judas would have chose that had he had a choice.End Quote, Yes he made the choice maybe to get Jesus, to move in the direction Judus wanted. Bt he made the choice even after Jesus, told him to go and do it.

In job we are told that Satan was allowed to kill job's children in mass , would Job have chosen that if he could have stopped it. End Quote, If is a small word with a much larger meaning. take th efacts as presented in th eHoly Word. Like any believer is to do.

Two placed in the bible we have the story of the lying spirit where it is said the Lord has a discussion in heaven with all the heavenly beings about who will lie to the King to get him to go to war where he will meet his death. End Quote, I don't read that in any of my many Bibles.

You need to study a little more campbell, God does not always allow man to choose his own destiny , many times God has already chosen that destiny for the man.

I bet in any of the instances I gave above the human involved would have made other choices than what the bible tells us God forced them into. End Quote. save your money! Gods will be done!

All humans have the ability to make choices, and when evil is introduced to evil men God knows their evil nature will come first. God knows that evil men require little influnce to create more evil. Men who seek the will of God can resist evil, thats why the Bible tells us, resist the Devil and he will flee from you. Evil men will not resist the Devil, but are encouraged by him. God does not rob men of their free will in order to send them to Hell. Pharoahs heart was hardened because he was an evil man. Had Pharoah love the Lord, he never would of lost his army. Had Judas loved God he never would of betrayed him. Evil enters into all people, yet people who love God resist evil.
As far as Job, many people have lost family members because of evil, and most of us have little control over such events, so how is Job any different from the rest of us?

Evil or any man women or child bent on thier own goals and avoid the Lord, is domed. Satan need not bother with them. Enless they try to return to the fold. In which case they need strong guidenc as they will be attacked from all sides to have their soul return to the path of destruction. Now that is IMHO. Any comment on what I have shared?

1 Reply

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