If Jesus was God ...

@SWORD of GOD,

How can the Quran be noble when it came from a scribe dictated by a man?

@SWORD of GOD,

The Quran is noble because it's the exact words of Allah (God), the most Noble, revealed by Him to His final messenger, Muhammad (PBUH).

Allah (God) says:
"That (this) is indeed an honorable recitation (the Noble Quran). In a Book well-guarded (with Allah in the heaven i.e. The Preserved Tablet). Which (that Book with Allah) none can touch but the purified (i.e. the angels). A Revelation (this Quran) from the Lord of the 'Alam?n (mankind, jinn and all that exists)." [Quran 96: 78-80].

"Nay! This is a Glorious Quran, (Inscribed) in Al-Lauh Al-Mahfuz (The Preserved Tablet)!" [Quran 85: 21-22]

Whenever Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) receives revelation as partial verses in Arabic, He would immediately have his writers write these verses on the leaves, woods, bones or parchamen papers and these parts would be kept well in containers.

The angel Gabriel would instruct Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) about what chapters will these verses to be listed under. Then, His companions would copy their own copies from this main copy. At the same time, since reading from Quran in daily prayer was required, many companions of prophet would memorize all the verses that were sent, the others would memorize some parts of it. Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) had also appointed over 40 writers among His companions. These companions were also educated about the order and the meaning of Quran. Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) would make it clear about the order of chapters and the organization of Quran.

Shortly after Quran was completed in the last year of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) in the life, the Angel Gabriel and He went over all the verses and chapters by reciting Quran together twice. About one year later Messenger Muhammad (PBUH) died, Omar (may Allah bless him) suggested Abu Bakr (may Allah bless him) (the first khaliphet and the most important companion of prophet) to collect all the writings as whole book. Zeyd bin Sabit, the leading writer of the Prophet (pbuh) supervised and guided the collection work. All copies that belonged to companions were collected and compared. After making three times sure to build a perfect copy, it was kept as a model manuscript for all who wants to copy Quran down. . Organization, order and the name of the chapters and the order of all verses, everything was done in the way that Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) instructed.

In Quran, God declares that Quran can never be changed:
'Nay! IThis is a glorious Quran...(Inscribed) in tablet Preserved" (Chapter 85 : Verses:21-22)

After Abu Bakr died two years later than Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), Omar was suggested to become the second khalife. After over twenty years of leadership of Muslims, Omar died and Othman bin Affan became the third noble khalife. During Omar's time, many people and country from three continent had been introduced to Islam , joining the mainstream and increasing the Muslim population by hundreds of times. Of course, language and the alphabets of these different nations and accents of other Arabic speaking countries were different from each other.

To be able to preserve a fully correct copy, Othman (May Allah bless Him) consulted the other companions and several book-copies of Quran made and sent over different countries of the world. All other copies that were written on other dialects other then Makkan dialect and writing style of Arabic were burned not to cause confusion. Today, many important libraries have these very original copy. All the copies in the world are the same exact version of these initial copies, letter to letter.

Moreover, the copy in Topkapi Palace in Istanbul was the personal copy of Khalife Othman (M.A.B.H). Indeed, he was murdered while reading on his Quran. You can see the page with the marks of blood on it.

About the earlier scriptures, Islam considers the corruption of the Torah and New Testemant in both the text and the meaning. Although right now we have very later versions of Bible, there are some earlier copies that we have heard the Church has forbidden to publish. The reasons are quite interesting and supports what Quran teaches and says about the earlier scriptures.

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@SWORD of GOD,

To those who are out of arrogance insist to reject the Truth even after they see its clear proofs, Allah has described them to his Messenger, Muhammad (PBUH):

"And even if We (Allah) had sent down unto you (O Muhammad (peace be upon him)) a Message written on paper so that they could touch it with their hands, the disbelievers would have said: "This is nothing but obvious magic!" " [Quran 6: 7]

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@SWORD of GOD,

SWORD of GOD;29205 wrote:

[SIZE="3"]Jesus said: [ John:5:37 ]-[ And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. ][/SIZE]

?The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was but a Messenger of Allah (God), and His word which He conveyed to Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him.? (Quran 4:171)

"Truly, the likeness of Jesus with ALLAH (God) is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, and then said to him, 'Be!' and he was." [Quran 3:59]

TRuly Muhammad is a false prophet... He will be cursed as stated by Paul in Gal 1.8-9 because Muhammad was teaching different doctrines not related to the doctrines preached by Jesus and the Apostles.

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@Drnaline,

[SIZE="2"]The Questions that No Christian Wants to Answer..continue[/SIZE]

[SIZE="2"]Question:[/SIZE]

How can any sane normal person believe that the following passage which contains dirty sexual expressions had been said or inspired by God, All mighty !!?

"You also took your beautiful jewels made of My gold and of My silver, which I had given you, and made for yourself male images that you might play the harlot with them." [Ezekiel 16:17]

This is just one of many evidences that prove the fabrications in the bible.

"Do they not then consider the Qur'an carefully? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein many a contradiction." (Qur'an 4: 82).

Click here to hear the Quran beautiful recitation (in Arabic) for any chapter.

And click hear to hear the Quran recitation in Arabic with online audio English translation.

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@Drnaline,

Drnaline;29465 wrote:

1. Why?

2. If there was no prophecy like you stated above why do you believe he was mentioned in the bible, where is he mentioned by name? "As muslims we believe the original Bible to have mentioned mohamed as the next prophet,"

3. Who am i to say, yet i will say it. I believe Muhammid to be a false prophet. You say your book is devine, yet it came through the mouth of muhammid interpreted by a scribe? These are not devine, they are words from one deranged man to another.

4. The Quran in your hands is from where? Made out of what? Paper and ink bud, that's all it is, made by a human hand. If you think you have something other then please explain how? You think otherwise because Muhammid said so, not God.
A good example would be me saying to my friend. Here, write this down. Then hand it to you and say Allah told me this and he said you had to follow me. What do you think the chance's are of you doing what i say?

before i answer do u have to ask obvious questions? (obvious questions have obvious answers).
1- because as i assumed that christians follow the Bible (i think am right) if it had mentioned mohamed to be the next prophet then the logical thing to do is to follow his teachings, thats why.
2- u must have misunderstood me, i said i believe that the first Bible did mention muhamed by his name, but changes from that time in the bible till now had erased the that part, how do i know all this? from the Quraan (which i trust to be 100% true).
3- you have the right to believe what you wish ofcourse , but the Quraan didnot come from prophet muhamed, it was brought to him by gibrael from Allah, and then it was tought to his desciples and companians and no interpretation is involved it was written word to word as it came .
4- it is true its made of paper and ink, but i wouldnot have cared if it was made of emeralds or diamonds or what ever u think a holybook should have been made of, its the teachings in it that i consider devine, about ur good example if i believed you to be a prophet (by the way i dont lools) yes i would believe you and follow ur teachings, i have to mention that i dont require my holy book to have been handed down ( a full original) to prophet muhamed , and written made in the heavens inscribed on the last page, why? because i believe prophet muhamed to be a prophet so if he said these are Allahs teachings, then they r, if he said Islam is the religion for all to follow then thats what it is, as long as i believe he is a prophet i dont require any more proofe or evidence by a state of the art holybook, paper and ink would do just fine.

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@chico,

chico;29614 wrote:

TRuly Muhammad is a false prophet... He will be cursed as stated by Paul in Gal 1.8-9 because Muhammad was teaching different doctrines not related to the doctrines preached by Jesus and the Apostles.

you fail to mention why should he teach the same doctrines, if u believe them to be true, pardon me i dont, i think by the time its over prophet muhamed , prophet (jesus or the Messiah) the apostles will all be in heaven having a drink together and enjoying themselves.

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@politically-wrong,

politically-wrong;29625 wrote:

you fail to mention why should he teach the same doctrines, if u believe them to be true, pardon me i dont, i think by the time its over prophet muhamed , prophet (jesus or the Messiah) the apostles will all be in heaven having a drink together and enjoying themselves.

I do not know if Muhammad will be there in heaven, God knows.... If Muhammad believe in the Messiah he should not add any doctrines because addition and subtraction is not allowed in the Bible....

1 Reply

@politically-wrong,

politically-wrong;29624 wrote:

before i answer do u have to ask obvious questions? (obvious questions have obvious answers).
1- because as i assumed that christians follow the Bible (i think am right) if it had mentioned mohamed to be the next prophet then the logical thing to do is to follow his teachings, thats why.
2- u must have misunderstood me, i said i believe that the first Bible did mention muhamed by his name, but changes from that time in the bible till now had erased the that part, how do i know all this? from the Quraan (which i trust to be 100% true).
3- you have the right to believe what you wish ofcourse , but the Quraan didnot come from prophet muhamed, it was brought to him by gibrael from Allah, and then it was tought to his desciples and companians and no interpretation is involved it was written word to word as it came .
4- it is true its made of paper and ink, but i wouldnot have cared if it was made of emeralds or diamonds or what ever u think a holybook should have been made of, its the teachings in it that i consider devine, about ur good example if i believed you to be a prophet (by the way i dont lools) yes i would believe you and follow ur teachings, i have to mention that i dont require my holy book to have been handed down ( a full original) to prophet muhamed , and written made in the heavens inscribed on the last page, why? because i believe prophet muhamed to be a prophet so if he said these are Allahs teachings, then they r, if he said Islam is the religion for all to follow then thats what it is, as long as i believe he is a prophet i dont require any more proofe or evidence by a state of the art holybook, paper and ink would do just fine.

Quote:

before i answer do u have to ask obvious questions? (obvious questions have obvious answers).

Because i want you to write it down so i may quote you later.

Quote:

1- because as i assumed that christians follow the Bible (i think am right) if it had mentioned mohamed to be the next prophet then the logical thing to do is to follow his teachings, thats why.

Still don't answer the question. If the Bible mentioned Mohammid his comming words would be Christian not Muslim. He would of fallen in line with Christians but instead decided to creat his own religion. Islam was created by Muhammid not Allah.

Quote:

2- u must have misunderstood me, i said i believe that the first Bible did mention muhamed by his name, but changes from that time in the bible till now had erased the that part, how do i know all this? from the Quraan (which i trust to be 100% true).

"You believe," So you don't have any kind of proof other then an opinion? So you believe a book writen by a scribe dictated to him by a man saying it was Allah talking to him, Good one.

Quote:

3- you have the right to believe what you wish ofcourse , but the Quraan didnot come from prophet muhamed, it was brought to him by gibrael from Allah,

That's if your taking the word of Muhammid, and since he liked little girls and boys and was rather fond of killing i beg to differ. What other witnesses was there to this story of gabriel coming down and speaking to Muhammid?

Quote:

and then it was tought to his desciples and companians and no interpretation is involved it was written word to word as it came .

Came from whom? Muhammid to a scribe right?

Quote:

4- it is true its made of paper and ink, but i wouldnot have cared if it was made of emeralds or diamonds or what ever u think a holybook should have been made of, its the teachings in it that i consider devine, about ur good example if i believed you to be a prophet (by the way i dont lools) yes i would believe you and follow ur teachings, i have to mention that i dont require my holy book to have been handed down ( a full original) to prophet muhamed , and written made in the heavens inscribed on the last page, why? because i believe prophet muhamed to be a prophet so if he said these are Allahs teachings, then they r, if he said Islam is the religion for all to follow then thats what it is, as long as i believe he is a prophet i dont require any more proofe or evidence by a state of the art holybook, paper and ink would do just fine

So you admit your book is manmade? And the original probably was as well?

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@chico,

chico;29629 wrote:

I do not know if Muhammad will be there in heaven, God knows.... If Muhammad believe in the Messiah he should not add any doctrines because addition and subtraction is not allowed in the Bible....

Good point, why does he use the word messiah? Like his saying that he thinks muhammid's name was mentioned but it was taken out?

If he indeed thinks Jesus was the messiah, what is the point of this thread?

1 Reply

@Drnaline,

Drnaline;29645 wrote:

Because i want you to write it down so i may quote you later.Still don't answer the question. If the Bible mentioned Mohammid his comming words would be Christian not Muslim. He would of fallen in line with Christians but instead decided to creat his own religion. Islam was created by Muhammid not Allah."You believe," So you don't have any kind of proof other then an opinion? So you believe a book writen by a scribe dictated to him by a man saying it was Allah talking to him, Good one. That's if your taking the word of Muhammid, and since he liked little girls and boys and was rather fond of killing i beg to differ. What other witnesses was there to this story of gabriel coming down and speaking to Muhammid? Came from whom? Muhammid to a scribe right?So you admit your book is manmade? And the original probably was as well?

1- if asking the obvious questions is for the purpose of quoting me ok fair enough.
2- (If the Bible mentioned Mohammid his comming words would be Christian not Muslim. He would of fallen in line with Christians but instead decided to creat his own religion.) no do u know why? Jesus(pbuh) was sent to the jewish community and he brought a new religion, he didnot follow inline with
Mosses(pbuh) , their basic teachings do not differ , but still its another religion, if Muhamed(pbuh) was supposed to continue inline with christianity then what is the need for him in the first place? , it does not work that way, every prophet brought with him the same basic teachings of believing in one God, but in a different packaging.
3- ("You believe," So you don't have any kind of proof other then an opinion? So you believe a book writen by a scribe dictated to him by a man saying it was Allah talking to him, Good one. ) Do u have a certificate from God saying the bible is actually from him and not from Jesus(pbuh)? do u have a video taping of when Gibrael brought the bible to Jesus(pbuh) i think NO , asking for that kind of evidence is out of the question dont u think?, i can not prove to u( materially ) that Quraan is from Allah, neither can u do the same for the Bible(please go ahead if u can) but that never stoped billions of people in believing in both of them.
4- (That's if your taking the word of Muhammid, and since he liked little girls and boys and was rather fond of killing i beg to differ. What other witnesses was there to this story of gabriel coming down and speaking to Muhammid? ) IF u r asking for living eyewitnesses looolz sorry i donot have, has any one seen jesus(pbuh) recieving the bible from Gibrael? same logic applies, about liking little girls and boys, what do u base ur alligations about the boys from? secondly about liking girls u r refering to his marrying Aisha(رضي الله عنها) i have already replied to this alligation i will do so again in a separate post right after this one.
5- (Came from whom? Muhammid to a scribe right?) right, but then where did an illitrate as prophet muhamed(pbuh) was bring the atleast literate miracle the Quraan is? ask a christian arab he will tell u the Quraan is atleast a literate impossibility meaning even the best in arabic language can not try to make similar (books).
6- (So you admit your book is manmade? And the original probably was as well?) first of all there is no such thing as the original, the Quraan was delivered to prophet muhamed (pbuh) over a period of 23 years, it was collected together in one book later, no material (as in ink and paper or book) was handed to prophet muhamed(pbuh) from Gibrael , only word from God, the prophet repeated those words to his companions and they wrote it down.

* u said prophet Muhamed(pbuh) liked killing, please specify how did u come to this conclusion or opinion, i dont want evidence just ur argument.

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@Drnaline,

Drnaline;29647 wrote:

Good point, why does he use the word messiah? Like his saying that he thinks muhammid's name was mentioned but it was taken out?

If he indeed thinks Jesus was the messiah, what is the point of this thread?

May be my understanding of the word messiah is different from yours, any way i believe jesus (pbuh) (as does every muslim) to be a prophet from God , sent to show the righteous way of worshiping God , not the son of God not anything like that, he was a prophet like mosses(pbuh) and the others, then after him prophet Muhamed was sent to all humanity and all must follow his teachings(btw as a muslim i believe that Jesus will come again to earth, and lead the Muslims against (Almaseekh) who we believe is gooing to come and will have enormous powers saying he is God using them to divert people from the righteous way, but is satanic its difficult for me to explain this)

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@Drnaline,

Drnaline about prophet Muhamed and his marriage to Aisha (رضي الله عنها) when she was nine years old, its logical that u find this disgusting because the society u live in now say's so, ur own principals are against this, sure by all means, but u forget that prophet Muhamed lived in the sixth century, which is totally different from now and todays society , i read once in an american novel talking about a main character who was told he is a fruit of unmarried parents and how this affected his whole life, apparently in the twenties such thing was destructive to a man's life in the US, but is it so now adays? may be its still something to hide but surely not as bad a thing as it was in the twenties, this change in societies values occured over a period of almost lets say 90 years or even a century, ok how about 1500 years ago, how different was it?
* also a nine year old of today is a tiny thing, just a child, but was it so 1500 years ago? are the people today of the same size and age of maturity as 1500 years ago? we know that the size of a human being is much less than it was before, then may be a nine year old 1500 years ago was quite eligible to get married! .

*an important point , Aisha(رضي الله عنها) was married to him when she was 9 years old but she stayed at her parents home untill she was 12 years old then only went to her husbands home, iam sure 12 year old girls continue to be wives even in todays world, and 50 years ago in the US too, one last thing non of prophet Muhameds enemies critized him for this (during his time) which proves also that it was acceptable by their society, u can not blame him 1500 years later ?

these words (رضي الله عنها) iam unable to translate to english, they dont contribute anything to my argument anyway.

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@SWORD of GOD,

You mean to tell me you translate all your posts? Nice.

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@SWORD of GOD,

Brother "Politically-wrong", believe me.. you are wasting your time in responding to an arrogant person who freely chooses to live and die Blind and Deaf. No matter what documented crystal clear proofs and sensible arguments you show him, he would never accept the truth because he wants to be a Trinity paganist.

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@SWORD of GOD,

SWORD of GOD;29854 wrote:

Brother "Politically-wrong", believe me.. you are wasting your time in responding to an arrogant person who freely chooses to live and die Blind and Deaf. No matter what documented crystal clear proofs and sensible arguments you show him, he would never accept the truth because he wants to be a Trinity paganist.

Well SWORD of God I'm not sure if you have heard about this yet but in many areas of the world where the Christian faith has been banned followers of Allah are now coming forward with stories of how Jesus is now appearing in their dreams and tell them to follow Him and the Bible. Muslims are starting to walk into Christian Churches and telling Christians assembled that they donot need salvation, for they have already given their life to Christ. They are asking for Bibles and instruction on how to best serve Christ. It appears this is happening in many Islamic countries, and these people are telling their stories even at the risk of death. God Himself is now reaching out to the Islamic people who truly seek Him.

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@Drnaline,

[SIZE="2"]If Jesus was God ... [/SIZE]

Then how could God sat down at the right hand of himself !!? (as stated in this biblical passage) :

"So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God." [Mark 16:19]

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@mako cv,

mako;27720 wrote:

He said he would return "while those standing here have not tasted death". That was 2000 years ago and they are long dead. He can't come back now, Jews stone false prophets and he did not do as he prophecied. :patriot:

Jesus said there would be some who will not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. That is found in Mark chapter 9 verse 1. If you read verses 2 through 7 of that same chapter you will see this prophecy was fulfilled in a vision. It's obvious that the fulfillment was in a vision in which some of them did see Gods kingdom. Now if you want to ignore verses 2 through 7 you may do so. Yet the text makes plain what Jesus was speaking of here. Jesus made plane in Matthew 24 that before He returned to this world the temple in Jerusalem would first have to be destroyed and that did not happen for another seventy years, and His Gospel would have to be preached in all the world. And only after those events would the end come. The Bible also makes plain that before Christ could return the Jews would first have to return from exile to retake Israel, and also retake Jerusalem. And that pretty much is where we find ourselves today. The Old Testament prophecy also states that Jerusalems East Gate would remained sealed until the Prince to come would open it Himself. And it states that all efforts to open the Gate before the Prince would return would fail. All attempts have failed, and Jerusalems East Gate remains sealed today.

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@SWORD of GOD,

SWORD of GOD;29854 wrote:

Brother "Politically-wrong", believe me.. you are wasting your time in responding to an arrogant person who freely chooses to live and die Blind and Deaf. No matter what documented crystal clear proofs and sensible arguments you show him, he would never accept the truth because he wants to be a Trinity paganist.

Other than the mention of the trinity, I thought that you were speaking about yourself.
Keep it up thought because your type of aptitude does much to discredit your own religion.

Regards
DL

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@Drnaline,

Quote:

If you read verses 2 through 7 of that same chapter you will see this prophecy was fulfilled in a vision. It's obvious that the fulfillment was in a vision in which some of them did see Gods kingdom.

Kinda stretching it there, aren?t you?the transfiguration can hardly be considered the son coming in his kingdom.
What the Bible says about the End of the World
The end will come within the lifetime of Jesus's listeners.
"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." -- Matthew16:28
"But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God." -- Luke 9:27
"Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation." -- Matthew 23:36
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." -- Matthew 24:34
"Nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven." -- Matthew 26:64
"Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power." -- Mark 9:1
"Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done." -- Mark 13:30
"And ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven." -- Mark 14:62
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled." -- Luke 21:32
"Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?" -- John 21:22
The end will come within the lifetime of the the New Testament authors.
"Waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ ... that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ." -- 1 Corinthians 1:7-8
"But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none." -- 1 Corinthians 7:29
"That ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ. -- Philippians 1:10
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." -- 1 Thessalonians 4:17
"I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." -- 1 Thessalonians 5:23
"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son...." -- Hebrews 1:2
"But now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." -- Hebrews 9:26
"Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you." -- 1 Peter 1:20
"But the end of all things is at hand." -- 1 Peter 4:7
"Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time." -- 1 John 2:18
The end will come soon. (Within a couple thousand years or so.)
"The Lord is at hand." -- Philippians 4:5
"For the coming of the Lord draweth nigh." -- James 5:8
"For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry." -- Hebrews 10:37
"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass. -- Revelation 1:1
"The time is at hand." -- Revelation 1:3
"Behold, I come quickly." -- Revelation 3:11, 22:7, 22:12
"Surely I come quickly." -- Revelation 22:20

Quote:

The Old Testament prophecy also states that Jerusalems East Gate would remained sealed until the Prince to come would open it Himself. And it states that all efforts to open the Gate before the Prince would return would fail. All attempts have failed, and Jerusalems East Gate remains sealed today.

Ezekiel 44:1-3 Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh toward the east; and it was shut. Then said the Lord unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the Lord, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut. It is for the prince; the prince!
Actually it says that the gate will be shut?shut implies closed by a moveable barrier (also a gate)?the East Gate of Jerusalem is not shut, it no longer exists! There are presently two East Gates in Jerusalem, the Lion?s Gate constructed by Sultan Suleiman, who according to legend placed lions on both sides to prevent his dying by an attack of lions. The other East Gate is called the Golden or Mercy Gate and is dated to the post Byzantine period?this is the one that Christians claim Ezekiel was writing about. The original walls and gates of Jersusalem no long exist except in fragments. Another prophecy gone awry!

Quote:

All attempts have failed, and Jerusalems East Gate remains sealed today.

There can be no attempts at unsealing what no longer exists? :patriot:

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