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Hatred hurled from the left towards Christians, why?

 
 
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Apr, 2008 07:29 pm
@Reagaknight,
Reagaknight;56844 wrote:
That's war, sorry. But as a war of brutality typical in the proportion of violence to the large scale of the war, the war was justified itself, individuals' actions maybe not.


not when they are acting on the behalf of their superiors.



Quote:
But I'm asking you to provide specific examples along with specific details relating to those examples.
0 Replies
 
Sabz5150
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Apr, 2008 05:26 am
@Reagaknight,
Reagaknight;56831 wrote:
Obviously, the Christian kingdoms would want the burning and pillaging on the other guy's land rather than theirs. I'm sorry, but you'd make a pretty ****ty medieval general. How long would the individual Christian kingdoms last before the armies of the Turks? United, they probably saved Christian Europe with the Crusades. And also, there's only so much you can take. If you stand by your philosophy, you end up with no land at all.


Good thing I was born in the 20th.

Sure, I'll side with you and say the Crusades saved the good ol boys in Europe. I'm just wondering where this war turned into a divine order to wipe out a group of people. This goes for both sides. Islam wasn't the nutball region of scientific and technological stagnation that it is today... they pioneered many things that affect us to day (one being the scientific method). I guess the question is... when did the f*ckin' fundies take over?!

Quote:
That's degrading and disrespectful towards the differences between the two religions' holy books.


Two words: Atheist. Darwinist. Those two words were created by "the other side" with the single purpose to disrespect and degrade people like me.

So yeah, as I was saying... BibleFights.

Quote:
Okay, maybe ridiculous, but at least not morally reprehensible.


Killing may be justifiable at times, but never is it moral. There is no morality in taking another's life. Ever. It is part of the biggest set of rules you follow.
Reagaknight
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Apr, 2008 01:41 pm
@Red cv,
Quote:
not when they are acting on the behalf of their superiors.


And how many times was this the case? Was it the case at Jerusalem, for example?

Quote:


Okay, Albigenisian Crusades, yes, Antioch if you like, I said besides Jerusalem, be more specific with the Northern Crusades (did they massacre the Wends,) pillaging? You can do better than that.

Several questions.

How many such instances were actually supported by the people behind the Crusades (the Church, monarchs, etc.) and how many were bloodlust or anti-Semitism or etc. on the part of the soldiers?

Could you (do you have the ability to, not will you) compile a similar list only with the Muslims playing the part of the Christians?

How about secular medieval wars?
0 Replies
 
Reagaknight
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Apr, 2008 02:01 pm
@Red cv,
Quote:
Good thing I was born in the 20th.

Sure, I'll side with you and say the Crusades saved the good ol boys in Europe. I'm just wondering where this war turned into a divine order to wipe out a group of people. This goes for both sides. Islam wasn't the nutball region of scientific and technological stagnation that it is today... they pioneered many things that affect us to day (one being the scientific method). I guess the question is... when did the f*ckin' fundies take over?!


They were always there, usually in control. Okay, the Muslim world had plenty of scholars, Muslim or not (not, in a lot of cases), but it didn't mean "the fundies" didn't have power. And if I recall, the Egyptians whose something or other dynasty was supportive of learning, eventually devolved into a militaristic nation because of the growing power of the Mamluks. Or something like that.

Quote:
Two words: Atheist. Darwinist. Those two words were created by "the other side" with the single purpose to disrespect and degrade people like me.


What? Atheist is a word denoting lack (a) of religious belief (theist), Darwinism is just the acceptance of the theories of Darwinism, they cannot be degrading.

Quote:
Killing may be justifiable at times, but never is it moral. There is no morality in taking another's life. Ever. It is part of the biggest set of rules you follow.


Not even Hitler?
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Apr, 2008 08:38 pm
@Reagaknight,
I never said the Muslims were innocent either. The crusades were perverse no matter how you look at it.
Reagaknight
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Apr, 2008 09:36 am
@Fatal Freedoms,
Fatal_Freedoms;56940 wrote:
I never said the Muslims were innocent either. The crusades were perverse no matter how you look at it.


But weren't there similar secular incidents as well?
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Apr, 2008 09:52 am
@Reagaknight,
Reagaknight;56983 wrote:
But weren't there similar secular incidents as well?


So you agree that the crusades are morally indefensible?
DiversityDriven
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Apr, 2008 10:07 am
@Sabz5150,
Sabz5150;56865 wrote:
Good thing I was born in the 20th.

Sure, I'll side with you and say the Crusades saved the good ol boys in Europe. I'm just wondering where this war turned into a divine order to wipe out a group of people. This goes for both sides. Islam wasn't the nutball region of scientific and technological stagnation that it is today... they pioneered many things that affect us to day (one being the scientific method). I guess the question is... when did the f*ckin' fundies take over?!



Two words: Atheist. Darwinist. Those two words were created by "the other side" with the single purpose to disrespect and degrade people like me.

So yeah, as I was saying... BibleFights.



Killing may be justifiable at times, but never is it moral. There is no morality in taking another's life. Ever. It is part of the biggest set of rules you follow.
Quote:
Two words: Atheist. Darwinist. Those two words were created by "the other side" with the single purpose to disrespect and degrade people like me.
If we created them why do you claim them as your own? We are theists you are atheist funny you would be offended, is it not proper? I asked you if you believed in darwins theory, you said yes and this offended you having to say yes? Sounds like the truth hurt you.
Quote:
Killing may be justifiable at times, but never is it moral. There is no morality in taking another's life. Ever.
What's your opinion on abortion? A womens right, or the rights of the unborn person?
Does your atheist morality extend to all life forms or just born humans. How moral are you about what you eat? If it's just to humans, why just us, what makes us special?
How does your atheist morality conflict with your darwinist beliefs that only the strong survive? For darwinists there is not morality is there?
So claiming your belief in darwin and how his theory contains no morality, how do you defive morality from atheism?
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Apr, 2008 10:17 am
@DiversityDriven,
DiversityDriven;56991 wrote:
If we created them why do you claim them as your own? We are theists you are atheist funny you would be offended, is it not proper? I asked you if you believed in darwins theory, you said yes and this offended you having to say yes? Sounds like the truth hurt you.


Early modern Christian writers often failed to distinguish between non-belief in "the true God" and non-belief in a supreme being per se, and atheism usually meant the assertion of the non-existence of the Judeo-Christian God. Strictly speaking, however, atheism is the denial of the existence of a divinity.

the term atheist was used without great precision, even carelessly. The epithet was applied to religious dissidents, political enemies, and debauched libertines, usually with little concern for a person's real beliefs on the question of God's existence.
0 Replies
 
Reagaknight
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Apr, 2008 10:17 am
@Fatal Freedoms,
Fatal_Freedoms;56988 wrote:
So you agree that the crusades are morally indefensible?


If the crusades were "morally indefensible" then just about every war is "morally indefensibe." It makes no difference that the Crusades are regarded as religious wars.
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Apr, 2008 10:20 am
@Reagaknight,
Reagaknight;56994 wrote:
If the crusades were "morally indefensible" then just about every war is "morally indefensibe." It makes no difference that the Crusades are regarded as religious wars.


Most wars are morally indefensible. The idea that the crusade was fought in the name of god makes it so much worse.
Sabz5150
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Apr, 2008 05:23 am
@Reagaknight,
Reagaknight;56912 wrote:
What? Atheist is a word denoting lack (a) of religious belief (theist)


We're the least trusted minority, y'know that? People in America trust us less than Muslims. We don't believe in any god... that means that there isn't a major religion where an eternity of torture and suffering has our names written on it.

The term is most often used as an insult. Even you have to admit that.

Quote:
Darwinism is just the acceptance of the theories of Darwinism, they cannot be degrading.


I find your lack of understanding degrading. The "theories of Darwinism"? That right there solidifies my point. What exactly are these "theories" and why is it called "Darwinism"? Do you call relativity "Einsteinism"? Do you call genetics "Mendelism"? I can't imagine what you'd call botany.

It's called "Science". Nothing more. Nothing less. Giving a section of science a suffix doesn't permit its removal or exclusion. Unless you honestly think prayer is a substitute for modern medicine.

Quote:
Not even Hitler?


Not even Hittie. Let him die naturally. Besides, doesn't your religion say that there are very special places reserved just for such people. Judas, of course, occupying Suite A1 for the rest of existence.

Didn't Hittie kill himself, anyway? Yeah, I think that serves him right. Bailing out... unable to face the music. His great empire destroyed before him. That's justice.
0 Replies
 
Sabz5150
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Apr, 2008 06:05 am
@DiversityDriven,
DiversityDriven;56991 wrote:
If we created them why do you claim them as your own? We are theists you are atheist funny you would be offended, is it not proper? I asked you if you believed in darwins theory, you said yes and this offended you having to say yes? Sounds like the truth hurt you.


Asking if I 'believe' in a specific section of science doesn't offend me. Not one bit. The term "Darwinist" and it's other forms are creationist-made. It's a label used for attack and degradation, it lets you feel that you can safely carve out a section of modern science from your "worldview" and still reap its rewards. Let's see... heart bypass or circle of prayer... heart bypass or prayer... hard choice there.

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What's your opinion on abortion? A womens right, or the rights of the unborn person?


MY opinion? A woman's right. If a person (or couple) want to have an abortion, they can do so. However that is a cross they must bear alone.

I was given the choice of my (ex) g/f and I having our child or having an abortion. The decision came to me and I chose the child without a thought. That is what *I* do. I'm pro-choice because the argument is not mine... I have the incorrect set of genitalia to have any weight in a woman's choices. But when the choice is given to me, I choose life.

Quote:
Does your atheist morality extend to all life forms or just born humans. How moral are you about what you eat? If it's just to humans, why just us, what makes us special?


Meat good. More meat better. We are predatory omnivores. This is natural.

I don't get what you're asking here...

Quote:
How does your atheist morality conflict with your darwinist beliefs that only the strong survive?


Never does evolution say "only the strong survive". It does however say that those best suited for the environment will survive. Big difference, Sanchez. Let me elaborate.

CCR5-delta-32 is an evolutionary mutation brought about by a hunk of missing data in gene CCR5 (hence the name, delta means "deletion"). It does not make a person stronger than another, it does not make them faster, slimmer, able to do superhuman acts, etc. In fact, it puts you at a higher risk for certain diseases, technically making you weaker. Strength and might do not make this evolutionary data mismatch important.

If you acquire the delta32 mutation from both your mother and father, you are immune to AIDS.

This is not a strengthening of the immune system, this is not a built in defense mechanism to the virus. It is a DNA screwup that alters the T-cells.

Wouldn't you like to have that.

So, as you see, evolution is not about "might makes right".

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For darwinists there is not morality is there?


Religion does not equal morality. Morality is human, not religious.

Quote:
So claiming your belief in darwin and how his theory contains no morality, how do you defive morality from atheism?


Again, Sanchez, your ignorance shines.

Are you saying that without your religion, you would be an immoral person? What little control you have over yourself... so sad that you need fear of eternal suffering to keep you in line. I don't need that to guide my life, I can do very well by myself, thank you very much. I have the ability to think for myself and understand for myself what the difference is between right and wrong. I don't need a magic man watching my every move and keeping a running file on my life to scare me into being a good little servant.

Morality comes from inside one's self. I do not need to draw upon anything to achieve that. I do not need a religion to instill that in me. I have morality without all of that.

To have to draw on something besides your own self for morals and sense of right and wrong is a sign of weakness. It shows that you cannot brave the world alone... you need your hand held the entire way.

I can walk for myself.
0 Replies
 
Reagaknight
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Apr, 2008 05:06 pm
@Fatal Freedoms,
Fatal_Freedoms;56996 wrote:
Most wars are morally indefensible. The idea that the crusade was fought in the name of god makes it so much worse.


Really, by what standards? Why is it so much worse than wars over land, political ideologies, ethnicity, or etc?

And I hope you're not saying the Crusades' only purpose was a religious war. Even so "religious wars" can be justified just like any other.
Reagaknight
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Apr, 2008 05:20 pm
@Red cv,
Quote:
We're the least trusted minority, y'know that? People in America trust us less than Muslims. We don't believe in any god... that means that there isn't a major religion where an eternity of torture and suffering has our names written on it.

The term is most often used as an insult. Even you have to admit that.


Well, perhaps people would trust you more if you didn't try to force your Darwinism down their throats. If I said "you're an atheist!'We're the least trusted minority, y'know that? People in America trust us less than Muslims. We don't believe in any god... that means that there isn't a major religion where an eternity of torture and suffering has our names written on it.

The term is most often used as an insult. Even you have to admit that.[/QUOTE]

If I said "you're an atheist," would it be anything but the truth? To be an insult, the person must back it up with reasons explaining why that is so bad.

Quote:
I find your lack of understanding degrading. The "theories of Darwinism"? That right there solidifies my point. What exactly are these "theories" and why is it called "Darwinism"? Do you call relativity "Einsteinism"? Do you call genetics "Mendelism"? I can't imagine what you'd call botany.


Typo, theories of Darwin. Darwin's ideas, which I believe he wrote a book about. I do not use the word "Darwinist", but I imagine you could use "Einsteinium" or "Mendelism" if you were so inclined.

Quote:
Not even Hittie. Let him die naturally. Besides, doesn't your religion say that there are very special places reserved just for such people. Judas, of course, occupying Suite A1 for the rest of existence.


Die naturally, after bringing about the near extinction of the Jewish race, which he would have done sooner or later. Killing to stop even more death is surely justifiable.

Judas, along with Brutus, yes, if you believe Dante, but really, as an American, I am rather more fond of Brutus than Julius Caesar, united Italy or no. Anyway, if Judas had just apologized, perhaps he wouldn't be there.
Sabz5150
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Apr, 2008 05:35 pm
@Reagaknight,
Reagaknight;57123 wrote:
Well, perhaps people would trust you more if you didn't try to force your Darwinism down their throats.


That line coming from a Christian! Oh Irony! My cup runneth over for thee!

We don't bang on your door at 8am pushing science texts. We don't have multimillion dollar conglomerates pushing lies and deceit. We don't make propaganda films designed to stir up controversy. We don't try to force "alternative" views into the classroom. We don't try to hop on board political easy street to achieve our needs.

Get my drift?

The ONLY forcing of anything has come from pressure from the religious side of things.

Quote:
If I said "you're an atheist," would it be anything but the truth? To be an insult, the person must back it up with reasons explaining why that is so bad.


Four words: Hitler was a Christian. How is that anything but the truth. He did believe in God and Jesus. This is the truth, so it is not an insult. Correct?

Quote:
Typo, theories of Darwin. Darwin's ideas, which I believe he wrote a book about. I do not use the word "Darwinist", but I imagine you could use "Einsteinium" or "Mendelism" if you were so inclined.


A book which constitutes about two percent of our current knowledge on evolutionary biology. Calling it Darwinism is like calling auto mechanics "Model A-ism".

Quote:
Die naturally, after bringing about the near extinction of the Jewish race, which he would have done sooner or later. Killing to stop even more death is surely justifiable.


Methinks you hold a grudge.

So i can cap W to stop this war? It would stop more death. How about just nuking the entire area as it sits. No pullouts, let the entire thing clean itself up. Justifiable? Killing to stop killing.
0 Replies
 
Reagaknight
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Apr, 2008 07:14 pm
@Red cv,
Quote:
That line coming from a Christian! Oh Irony! My cup runneth over for thee!

We don't bang on your door at 8am pushing science texts. We don't have multimillion dollar conglomerates pushing lies and deceit. We don't make propaganda films designed to stir up controversy. We don't try to force "alternative" views into the classroom. We don't try to hop on board political easy street to achieve our needs.

Get my drift?

The ONLY forcing of anything has come from pressure from the religious side of things.


Save yourself 5 minutes of typing and recognize factiousness next time. Though I'm offended you put me in the same group as such people.

Quote:
Four words: Hitler was a Christian. How is that anything but the truth. He did believe in God and Jesus. This is the truth, so it is not an insult. Correct?


Of course, how could a simply factual statement be an insult?!

Quote:
A book which constitutes about two percent of our current knowledge on evolutionary biology. Calling it Darwinism is like calling auto mechanics "Model A-ism".


Forgive me if I'm wrong, but didn't Darwin come up with evolution, as in he was the first one to propose such an idea? Wouldn't that make him different from any of your examples?

Quote:
Methinks you hold a grudge.

So i can cap W to stop this war? It would stop more death. How about just nuking the entire area as it sits. No pullouts, let the entire thing clean itself up. Justifiable? Killing to stop killing.


Against whom?

Nuking the entire area would defeat the purpose by killing more people than would have died if you didn't nuke the area.
Sabz5150
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Apr, 2008 08:02 pm
@Reagaknight,
Reagaknight;57127 wrote:
Save yourself 5 minutes of typing and recognize factiousness next time. Though I'm offended you put me in the same group as such people.


This am the intertubes. There are no sarcasm tags.

Quote:
Of course, how could a simply factual statement be an insult?!


Tell a Christian that Hitler's wearing their jersey.

Quote:
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but didn't Darwin come up with evolution, as in he was the first one to propose such an idea? Wouldn't that make him different from any of your examples?


His contribution was the first, however nobody refers to Origins as the absolute definitive text for evolutionary science. Scientists don't ask "What Would Darwin Do?" or base every single thing upon what he believed. Heck, Charlie got some things wrong.

The whole reason behind the term "Darwinism" is to convert a section of science into a perceived religion. It's so these people can easily swap out a neatly carved hunk of science for their religious views all while reaping the benefits of that which they condemn.

If you want a proper term... use Darwinian.

Quote:
Against whom?


Not sure... probably something to do with Israel, given your stance and lack of desire to elaborate on your position concerning support for Israel.

Quote:
Nuking the entire area would defeat the purpose by killing more people than would have died if you didn't nuke the area.


That depends entirely on several factors. Enemy/Civilian kill ratios, population density, fallout range, mid-air detonation versus direct land impact.

If you want to put justification to killing, all you really need is an enemy count higher than the civilian count. You're doing more good than harm at that point.

The death toll may take a sharp upturn after a nuke, but the numbers stay rather flat for a bit afterwards. At least till the next nuke drops.
0 Replies
 
Numpty
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Apr, 2008 03:38 pm
@Reagaknight,
Reagaknight;57122 wrote:
Really, by what standards? Why is it so much worse than wars over land, political ideologies, ethnicity, or etc?

And I hope you're not saying the Crusades' only purpose was a religious war. Even so "religious wars" can be justified just like any other.


Ok then, Justify one religion trying to wipe out another becuase of their nominated magic men in the sky.

The floor is yours,..............
Sabz5150
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Apr, 2008 04:52 pm
@Numpty,
Numpty;57150 wrote:
Ok then, Justify one religion trying to wipe out another becuase of their nominated magic men in the sky.

The floor is yours,..............


That's not what needs justification. What needs justification is a centuries old war between two religions, bent on wiping each other out... (here's the part that needs justification) over whose teacher of peace is superior and over a place called the holy land.

It needs more than justification... it needs logic.
 

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