question about English grammar

@ACB,

Quote:

I don't think that is always the case. Take the following quote from Shakespeare's Julius Caesar:

Never fear that: if he be so resolved,
I can o'ersway him.

To my mind, ACB, this seems to point to a future time, a time ahead of the moment of speaking.

Quote:

A present-tense example is "That's never a fox!" (= that's certainly not a fox).

That use, from the context that comes to mind, ie. sighting an animal and denying another's thought that it's a fox, is not a use in my neck of the woods.

In this context,

That's never a fox that will do/does that kind of killing. That's the work of a weasel.

it'd be idiomatic.

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@JTT,

You are a bit too free with your "nonsensical" epithets, and they are misplaced in this case.

I can only hope the scales will fall from your eyes. I would welcome comment by others. To me, it's a plain as a pikestaff, slang (quite ugly slang, at that)versus correct speech.

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@McTag,

Quote:

and they are misplaced in this case.

Every dictionary, virtually every person on the planet, save for those who are easily influenced by rumor, doesn't seem to think so, McTag.

Quote:

I can only hope the scales will fall from your eyes. I would welcome comment by others. To me, it's a plain as a pikestaff, slang (quite ugly slang, at that)versus correct speech.

How can one even equate slang, of any kind, and correct speech. Slang is part of the English language. I've seen you and many other matrons of English use slang, McTag. Shakespeare frequently used slang.

You still don't get it. Language is determined by those who use it. Do aspects of it fall into different registers, of course! But it's pretty lame, not to mention nonsensical, to get one's panties in a bunch about something that is to be dismissed simply because "I was taught that".

That's the stuff of peeves, not language science.

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@McTag,

Quote:

I can only hope the scales will fall from your eyes. I would welcome comment by others. To me, it's a plain as a pikestaff, slang (quite ugly slang, at that)versus correct speech.

Like McTag I was taught to never say "I never" and that the correct English is "I didn't" so I didn't say "I never" ever again and I never would because it doesn't sound consonant and grates upon my ingrained learning.

Words, however, mean what they are understood to mean so it's my tough luck that I don't like some terminology and instead barely mask my seething animus with ersatz sardonic spleen.

1 Reply

@fobvius,

Quote:

Like McTag I was taught to never say "I never" and that the correct English is "I didn't" ...

What was the reason given, Fobvius?

1 Reply

@JTT,

Quote:

What was the reason given, Fobvius?

Didactic English grammarians never needed more than one riposte to thwart the errant ingenue, "It's ungrammatical", said she. The reasoning was muchly along the lines of McTag's explanations although such was most classes' linguistic diversity I'd posit, "You ain't never seen anything like it".

The more I think about this subject the more I realise the teacher meant well.

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I can understand how some people might object to "I never heard him come in" in terms of meaning or style, but I don't see how it can be grammatically incorrect. The verb form is correct, and 'never' is an adverb performing its function of qualifying the verb.

1 Reply

Yes, but it means "never (ever)" and so its substitution for "didn't (did not)" is ungrammatical.

Slang. Nasty. Bleugh.

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@ACB,

Quote:

I can understand how some people might object to "I never heard him come in" in terms of meaning or style, ...

I know that there are some who might do so, but I sure can't understand why, ACB. The more it's discussed, the more I think that folks are spoofin'.

It's a completely unremarkable example of idiomatic English, even for the UK.

Google exact phrase search, UK only, "I never heard"
About 1,760,000 results

Google exact phrase search, UK only, "I never saw"
About 1,480,000 results

Google exact phrase search, UK only, "I never felt"
About 719,000 results

Google exact phrase search, UK only, "I never tasted"
About 27,800 results

Google exact phrase search, UK only, "I never liked"
About 492,000 results

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You searches show you are missing the point I am making, if that's what you're trying to address.

I've already said that "I never wash/saw/heard" etc is unremarkable standard English,

but it's wrong to use "never" for one discrete event in the past, when the meaning is "didn't".

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@McTag,

Quote:

but it's wrong to use "never" for one discrete event in the past, when the meaning is "didn't".

Why? You never explained why.

You're doing the prescriptive thing, McTag. It doesn't prove something wrong by stamping your feet, or putting it in bold or large print.

You are spoofin', aren't you? Hell even 'ever' has intensifying meanings.

============

M-W

ever
1 : always <ever striving to improve> <the ever-increasing population>
2 a : at any time <more than ever before> b : in any way <how can I ever thank you>
3 —used as an intensive <looks ever so angry> <am I ever happy to see you>

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ever

=================
====================

Oxford

ever

4 used for emphasis in questions expressing astonishment or outrage:
who ever heard of a grown man being frightened of the dark?
why ever did you do it?

ever so/such
British informal very; very much:
I am ever so grateful
she's ever such a pretty cat
thanks ever so

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/ever?view=uk

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@McTag,

I could see it (the word never instead of didn't) being the preferred choice if the end punctuation was an exclamation point/mark- as in: ' I never heard/saw him come in!'

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You've both missed the point, so you are both silly billies.

I give up.

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hi everyone
i agree with "The rule is, if it's grammatical, then you have to test for idiomatic."

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@westwind,

I never heard (simple past. it's just a history)
I've never heard (present perfect. It affects the present)

Example:
I've never met him (in the past). That's why, i don't know him (now)
It's in the present perfect tense because our focus is the effect.

I'm not hungry. I've had breakfast.

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question about English grammar

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