12
   

Why is Communism So Opposed?

 
 
Huxley
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jun, 2010 10:50 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Huxley wrote:
Additionally, I often agree with Marx politically, and he doesn't have as nasty a history to tackle as the Gulag (though a lot of his analysis is dated, at this point)

Do you approve of dispossessing emigrants and "rebels" (read: anti-communists), then? It's one of the bullet points in Marx's Communist Manifesto (Chapter 2, third-to-last paragraph, item 4).


I do not. But I also think that Marxism, as a political teleology and point of view for cultural criticism, is larger than the Communist Manifesto. Further, this politic goes hand-in-hand with my ethic. (as I favor architectonic approaches, this is important to myself)

Other points I disagree upon: That list of 10 is a bit weird, all-in-all. I sometimes wonder what it is Marx is reacting against there (I feel that it's lost in translation from >100 years ago). Also, while I think Marx's phrase that one can wake up and be a fisher one day and a farmer the next sounds fine in some environments, I think that given current population sizes and cultural expectations of production the differentiation of labor is a positive thing. Further, I don't think, at least at present, that violent revolution is necessary -- at least against non-Nazilike forces, Gandhi showed that one could lead a political revolution without intentions to murder the power elite. Where I am inspired by people like Gandhi, Marx was inspired by the French revolution. *shrugs*

For myself, Marxism is a reinterpretation of political events, a teleology of equality on the basis of man being a political animal (most everyone relies upon The Other's economic and social function), and the fact that capitalism as practiced closely mirrors Aristotle's version and defense of slavery (something which I disagree with).
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jun, 2010 11:01 am
@Huxley,
Huxley wrote:
I do not. But I also think that Marxism, as a political teleology and point of view for cultural criticism, is larger than the Communist Manifesto.

I realize that. But since you're calling yourself a Marxist, I consider it fair game to probe you about anything Marx wrote. Do you disagree?
Huxley
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jun, 2010 11:06 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Huxley wrote:
I do not. But I also think that Marxism, as a political teleology and point of view for cultural criticism, is larger than the Communist Manifesto.

I realize that. But since you're calling yourself a Marxist, I consider it fair game to probe you about anything Marx wrote. Do you disagree?


I would say that it's fair, but interpretation plays a large role in how one receives a thinker. This is why I pointed out other points on which I disagree with what Marx wrote and gave you my quick run-down interpretation of Marx with respect to modern political structures.

After all, The Founding Fathers owned slaves, but I don't conclude from this that those who are members of the tea-party advocate slaves (in the traditional sense) by stating we should go back to the ways of "The Founding Fathers".
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jun, 2010 12:48 pm
@Huxley,
Huxley wrote:
I would say that it's fair, but interpretation plays a large role in how one receives a thinker. This is why I pointed out other points on which I disagree with what Marx wrote and gave you my quick run-down interpretation of Marx with respect to modern political structures.

That's fine, I just wanted to make sure we're on the same page communication-wise. And it appears we are.
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2010 03:42 am
@electronicmail,
So when the medical profession gets contracts from the health service that does not count, its still government monopoly..I see your blinkered ignorance is restricting your ability to see the similarities...The only fool is you, who assumes your dogmatic opinion is correct without reasoned debate.
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2010 03:46 am
@Phoenix32890,
Once again your pointing to a demonic state divorced from its intentions. Funny how capitalists can divorce themselves from the evils capitalism creates but are single minded about socialism. In a democratic socialist state the choice is made by the people just like in a Kibbutz.
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2010 03:53 am
@Night Ripper,
The military is a government monopoly , it has no opposition for the work it carries out. It may sub contract its supplies but so does corporate monopolies.

Health care is a subject that needs debating on its own, not lumped in with the idea that socialism in general is assumed to be undemocratic communism. If the majority of a countries citizens decide on social insured health care, what would be your problem?
Pepijn Sweep
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2010 04:19 am
@Night Ripper,
In The Netherlands we have regulated the sale of soft-drugs like hasjies and marhuana. It works quiet well; exept for tourists who blow their brains out on a short trip to our country. Now there's international presure to change the situation... Why we have to adept to out-dated perceptions abroad ?
0 Replies
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2010 04:35 am
@cassavetes,
In Europe we had capitalist, socialist, communist etcetera countries next to eachother. In the summertime we went to Yugoslavia, Greece and Turkey for vacations. I never noticed any difference between the people; every system had it's priveledged class and we got along fine.

In the days of Perestroika and Glasnost Moskou was definitely a saver and cleaner place than New York; people were open and friendly, not agressive and money eager ($). The `victory´ of bandit capatilism destroys our European way of living.

I truly loathe this corporate hell. I think Marx was right about the vershitterung of the masses, without money, education or an outlook to a better future I would too rebel. Maybe I rebel anyway...
0 Replies
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2010 04:49 am
@Krumple,
In a capitalist business investments a mainly evaluated on return of investment. Measured in $ and a buck tomorrow is worth more than 2 in the long run. This stimulates short-term thinking, neclects the social consequences, environment and well-being of the work-force. Share-holders are over-important and ever higher rates of return have to be achieved (remember Lehman).

This is no way to continue because it robs the poor of money, education and dignity. Corporate US and Europe have become vultures praying on the corpse of the civil society.
0 Replies
 
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2010 06:18 am
@xris,
xris wrote:

The military is a government monopoly , it has no opposition for the work it carries out. It may sub contract its supplies but so does corporate monopolies.


Corporate monopolies are not enforced. Anyone with enough resources or investors can enter the market and compete if there is a monopoly. Try that with a government monopoly.

xris wrote:
Health care is a subject that needs debating on its own, not lumped in with the idea that socialism in general is assumed to be undemocratic communism. If the majority of a countries citizens decide on social insured health care, what would be your problem?


Taking my money against my will to care for the sick? That's theft.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2010 06:43 am
@Night Ripper,
So Corporate monopolies can be opposed? You are being just a bit naive. Do you want me to give a few examples where in practical terms its impossible..

Do you oppose government monopolies like law enforcement ... military defence and intelligence agencies..fire service...coast guards.. and so on ...? do you?They take your money for those shared benefits without your consent. Would you oppose a health service that would be of benefit for everyone and it cost you three times less than what you pay now? Pragmatism is a wonderful gift if you can reject your dogmatic views.
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2010 10:02 am
@xris,
xris wrote:
Do you want me to give a few examples where in practical terms its impossible..


Yes.

xris wrote:
Would you oppose a health service that would be of benefit for everyone and it cost you three times less than what you pay now?


Now who is being naive? Do you really think everyone paying for health care is getting more than they pay for? I think some people get a great deal on socialized medicine, the people with very little money and therefore pay very little taxes.

Personally, I paid about $200 last year in health care since I don't have health insurance. Yet I paid hundreds of thousands of dollars in taxes that are going to pay for someone elses health care. No, I don't think pragmatism pays off here since I'm not a freeloader. If you pay nothing then of course you think these magical free goodies are awesome.
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2010 10:11 am
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper wrote:
Now who is being naive? Do you really think everyone paying for health care is getting more than they pay for?

Maybe, under the current system, average patients are getting less than they pay for because of excessive market failure. Maybe, under universal healthcare, people will be getting better value for their money because government intervention will have corrected the market failure. A comparison of costs and benefits across countries suggests that this is true of Medicare-for-all countries like France and Canada, and Veterans-service-for-all countries like the UK. Admittedly though, they don't support xris's factor of three.
Night Ripper
 
  2  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2010 10:20 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Night Ripper wrote:
Now who is being naive? Do you really think everyone paying for health care is getting more than they pay for?

Maybe, under the current system, average patients are getting less than they pay for because of excessive market failure. Maybe, under universal healthcare, people will be getting better value for their money because government intervention will have corrected the market failure. A comparison of costs and benefits across countries suggests that this is true of Medicare-for-all countries like France and Canada, and Veterans-service-for-all countries like the UK. Admittedly though, they don't support xris's factor of three.


I paid hundreds of thousands of dollars in taxes. I will never get that money back in services. Most of that money will go towards other people. Trying to tell me I'm saving money under socialism is obviously false. I could definitely save money by paying for just what I need and not dozens of other people too.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2010 10:23 am
@Night Ripper,
Well lets hope you dont need the care you so despise. Maybe you will refuse it , but I doubt it.

Monopolies....A water authority taken over by a corporate company. Now you tell me where else I can get my water from ? About a million people are awaiting your response?

An essential local ferry service to France that has a dock and no one else is allowed to use . It historically has a strangle hold that no one is prepared to or has the means to compete with. The set up costs are too prohibitive. Now how do I who have no alternative but to use this overpriced service react ? should I be happy with this monopoly?

Do you want anymore damaging monopolies ?
xris
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2010 10:25 am
@Thomas,
I believe the cost of health care for Americans, those who pay, is three times higher than the cost to british tax payers. I can find the link if its necessary.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2010 10:28 am
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper wrote:
I paid hundreds of thousands of dollars in taxes. I will never get that money back in services. Most of that money will go towards other people. Trying to tell me I'm saving money under socialism is obviously false.

I wasn't talking about socialism, I was talking about universal healthcare. Moreover, I wasn't trying to tell you that you'd be saving money. I wasn't talking about you at all. Instead, I was talking about the average patient. Remember, just because you think everything is about you, that doesn't mean I have to.
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2010 10:31 am
@xris,
xris wrote:
Well lets hope you dont need the care you so despise. Maybe you will refuse it , but I doubt it.


Why would I refuse service I'm forcefully paying thousands of dollars for? Like I said, last year my health care costs $200 out of my own pocket. Yet I paid hundreds of thousands of dollars in taxes. You really think I need your "free" health care that I've already paid for 100 times over?

xris wrote:
A water authority taken over by a corporate company. Now you tell me where else I can get my water from ?


Any store.

xris wrote:
The set up costs are too prohibitive.


That's what venture capital is for. Investors, individually can't enter a market but by pooling resources, they can. Did you ever think that if someone own's a dock, you don't have a God given right to use it? Make your own dock or do without. Life's not a picnic.
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2010 10:33 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Night Ripper wrote:
I paid hundreds of thousands of dollars in taxes. I will never get that money back in services. Most of that money will go towards other people. Trying to tell me I'm saving money under socialism is obviously false.

I wasn't talking about socialism, I was talking about universal healthcare. Moreover, I wasn't trying to tell you that you'd be saving money. I wasn't talking about you at all. Instead, I was talking about the average patient. Remember, just because you think everything is about you, that doesn't mean I have to.


The average patient may save more but I won't. I'll be paying for someone else's health care which is why others will be saving. Of course the poor save money when they steal from the rich.
 

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