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Why is Communism So Opposed?

 
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2010 03:11 pm
@xris,
Even I know the answer to that Xris> U call a private army. What facinates me in this form of anarchy is the faith in money/valuables to buy things without a government to back the currency. Gold coins again ?
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2010 03:14 pm
@xris,
xris wrote:
Invasion, not some jerk threatening your property, your community is under attack from a foreign invader,what do you do?


It doesn't matter if it's a single jerk or a thousand jerks. Under anarchy there are no country borders or state lines so throwing the word "foreign" in there is completely irrelevant. I pay a police force to protect me and the rest of my community does too so therefore we will call some police, no matter how big. If worse comes to worst then I'll actually load up my shotgun and take care of my own defense.

You're clearly on a fishing expedition because you keep asking me single questions instead of just addressing all the relevant possible answers and making a cogent point.
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2010 03:17 pm
@Pepijn Sweep,
Pepijn Sweep wrote:
What facinates me in this form of anarchy is the faith in money/valuables to buy things without a government to back the currency.


No faith is required. Private currency can be backed by any fungible commodity, minerals, energy, whatever. It's not really an issue since private currency already exists and is in use. It can work because it DOES work. End of story.

xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2010 03:49 pm
@Night Ripper,
You are truly amazing, so now you have not only invented a anarchic state but a world community, all agreeing on the same principles. You are making it up as you go on. You wont admit that humanity needs to cooperate to survive certain unforeseen national events. You will never have tribal boundaries, land ownership, monopolies , groups gathering together to form cooperatives. Have we ever seen humans having the same ideologies , agreeing to abide by any one form of society?
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2010 03:53 pm
@Night Ripper,
But you have no proof its all untried myths. I have six chickens and two goats what car do I get , who decides? I have a cuckoo how many nuts do I get for it?
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2010 04:03 pm
@xris,
xris wrote:

But you have no proof its all untried myths. I have six chickens and two goats what car do I get , who decides? I have a cuckoo how many nuts do I get for it?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_currency

Quote:
A private currency is a currency issued by a private organization. It is often contrasted with fiat currency issued by governments. In many countries, the issue of private paper currencies is severely restricted by law.

Today, there are over four-thousand privately issued currencies in more than 35 countries. These include private gold and silver exchanges, local paper money, computerized systems of credits and debits, and electronic currencies in circulation, such as digital gold currency.

The great advantage of private currencies over national fiat currencies is that they are not created as debt to private banks. This means they do not get drained away from the community to remote banks through the charging of interest. Experience demonstrates that private currencies actually strengthen the economy; local currencies remain in town, stimulating home town productivity. Such local exchange systems also unify communities and fund local projects and businesses.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2010 03:16 am
@Night Ripper,
Another pipe dream that has no value in reality. How do value labour, how do you exchange your labour for a car. I work for John who gives me a pig, I exchange that for a boat with Pete, I then swap if for donkey with frank and then Alan gives me his beat up ford in exchange for my donkey...great ..
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2010 03:24 am
We had private currencies in England in the 19c , it was another form of controlling and manipulating the work force. You got a company coin in exchange for labour. You could only use it company shops and they exploited their monopoly and it became a symbol of serfdom, slavery..Anarchists will never confront one issue , they will constantly move from one subject to another ignoring every question posed. If you live in a community you need to organise ourselves and make agreements , this forms the basis for government , it can not be avoided.
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2010 04:43 am
Land is the greatest form of wealth accumulation and the creation of profit. What is worse the 10% of land owners holding 90% of the land through inheritance, dating back to the Norman invasion, or 100% of the land owned by 100% of the people? In the UK land was taken and given to the lords by William the conqueror. In theory to this day all land in England belongs to the crown. Through the centuries the lords, through corrupt governments, have forced men of of common lands and evicted crofters from their farm holdings. I know the terrible disasters communism has inflicted on its citizens but has capitalism served us any better. Its only through our ability to find social and just laws that we have withstood capitalists oppression.
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2010 05:33 am
@xris,
xris wrote:

Another pipe dream that has no value in reality. How do value labour, how do you exchange your labour for a car. I work for John who gives me a pig, I exchange that for a boat with Pete, I then swap if for donkey with frank and then Alan gives me his beat up ford in exchange for my donkey...great ..


Again, private currency.

xris wrote:
If you live in a community you need to organise ourselves and make agreements , this forms the basis for government , it can not be avoided.


Voluntary agreements and organizations are the cornerstones of anarchy. The keyword is "voluntary". The difference between anarchy and statism is only that one is completely voluntary and the other is not.

I've answered all your questions and all you can do is dishonestly say I'm changing the subject. You're the one that keeps trying to find a question to stump me on, desperately jumping from one topic to the next.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2010 07:31 am
@Night Ripper,
So you think bartering in the modern world will get you all you require? What value has a philosopher's musing in a world where goods are bartered for labour. I have some monopoly money will you sell me your car?

You have not answered one question all you do is widen the debate. You invent the community to fit your argument. You see the whole world converted to an anarchistic economy with no allowance for religious or democratic views on government, differing from yours. Its an impossible dream contrived from an immaculate conception. Any system can be claimed superior when you are allowed to invent the scenario to fit the ideology. Everything you try to claim is superior has been tried and it has failed because of human nature. From a hired gun to work tokens , it has failed on every occasion.
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2010 07:51 am
@xris,
xris wrote:
You see the whole world converted to an anarchistic economy with no allowance for religious or democratic views on government, differing from yours. Its an impossible dream contrived from an immaculate conception.


What's so impossible about not initiating force on another person? That's all anarchy is, voluntary agreements, not forced government.

You're also quite mistaken as to who has allowances for what. Since anarchy is strictly voluntaryism, if you voluntarily decide to adhere to a socialism or capitalism or whatever, you're welcome to. There would be nothing stopping you from creating your own little hippie commune where everyone shares everything, voluntarily of course. The only problem I have, which is why anarchy is to be favored, is when you force people to adhere to one system or another.
Thomas
 
  3  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2010 08:10 am
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper wrote:
What's so impossible about not initiating force on another person?

That your standard, "don't initiate force", is so vague it will be hard to apply in practice. I would expect that in practice, lots of people would disagree whether the agent has actually violated it.

Night Ripper wrote:
That's all anarchy is, voluntary agreements, not forced government.

In your anarchotopia, who enforces these voluntary agreements when one party chooses to default? And given that they have the power to enforce voluntary agreements, what stops them from also using that power to initiate force?
xris
 
  2  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2010 08:21 am
@Night Ripper,
Firstly you must tell me if this a closed community or it has the full support of the larger community? A hippie commune is nothing like a world vision on an anarchic economy. No one forces anyone in a democratic secular state. It is a pragmatic approach to an impossible human condition. It has less losers if its mandate is adhered to.
0 Replies
 
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2010 11:04 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:
That your standard, "don't initiate force", is so vague it will be hard to apply in practice. I would expect that in practice, lots of people would disagree whether the agent has actually violated it.


The initiation of force is already recognized by our legal systems so it can't be that vague. There's a legally recognized difference between harming someone in self-defense and harming them without just cause.

Night Ripper wrote:
In your anarchotopia, who enforces these voluntary agreements when one party chooses to default?


Let's say I loan you $50,000 to buy a house and you voluntarily agree to pay me $500 a month until it's paid off or agree that I can force you out of your house.

Now, let's say you default on our agreement. I can either force you out of my house personally or I can pay someone else to force you out. If I have to pay someone to force you out, it will cost me money, but cost less than losing a $50,000 house.

Night Ripper wrote:
And given that they have the power to enforce voluntary agreements, what stops them from also using that power to initiate force?


Since they aren't a monopoly, the same thing applies, if they initiate force, I'm going to pay someone else for protection.
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2010 11:33 am
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper wrote:
Thomas wrote:
That your standard, "don't initiate force", is so vague it will be hard to apply in practice.

The initiation of force is already recognized by our legal systems so it can't be that vague. There's a legally recognized difference between harming someone in self-defense and harming them without just cause.

So when the government takes taxes out of your income, do you consider that an initiation of force?

Night Ripper wrote:
Now, let's say you default on our agreement. I can either force you out of my house personally or I can pay someone else to force you out.

How is that not an initiation of force by you or that someone else?

Night Ripper wrote:
Thomas wrote:
And given that they have the power to enforce voluntary agreements, what stops them from also using that power to initiate force?

Since they aren't a monopoly, the same thing applies, if they initiate force, I'm going to pay someone else for protection.

What if somebody else pays them for extorting you?
0 Replies
 
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Jul, 2010 03:13 am
If this doesn't scare you it should.

"But [he] may say that he hates work, and is quite willing to take less, and be poor and dirty and ragged or even naked for the sake of getting off with less work. But that, as we have seen, cannot be allowed: voluntary poverty is just as mischievous socially as involuntary poverty: decent nations must insist on their citizens leading decent lives, doing their full share of the nation's work, and taking their full share of its income. . . . Poverty and social irresponsibility will be forbidden luxuries."

"Compulsory social service is so unanswerably right that the very first duty of a government is to see that everybody works enough to pay her way and leave something over for the profit of the country and the improvement of the world."

-George Bernard Shaw, socialist.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Jul, 2010 05:57 am
@Night Ripper,
Why should one bum make socialism obsolete. Its does not stand for supporting the lazy yobs, no more than capitalism stands for highway robbery.
0 Replies
 
 

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