Poll: Can Gays & Lesbians alter their sexual orientation?

Olo, you seem to think you are in a position to explain religion, when you are obviously not qualified. I am curious though, it what way do you feel you are qualified?

olobolo - that's an interesting perspective. I think I can follow your logic about people trying to find an excuse/explanation other than their personal dislike/distaste for something. They'd end up not having to defend their position as god/religion/God said it was the right position, and therefore not their own opinion/feeling.

So you're going with the logic, if something sounds good, it must be true? That's the problem with philosophy.

good = true?

I don't think so. I often think the truth is ugly, nasty, not good.

I feel a group hug coming on...

there it is

And now you know my secret master technique. Use it well, little. Use it well.

Nah, I wouldn't pull it off.

Hmmm...

I guess it depends on what you mean by "change." I certainly believe that people can be so socialized with disgust at the idea of same-sex relationships that they are able to play up whatever attraction they have to the opposite sex (for the ones through fives on the Kinsey scale) and play down whatever intrinsic attraction they may have to the same sex. I think that this is part of why the apparent number of gays/ lesbians fluctuates through history -- higher when it is more accepted, lower when it is more dangerous. It never disappears because there will always be the sixes, those who are just absolutely not attracted to the opposite sex and very attracted to the same sex.

I get your point about people looking for reasons to explain their disgust, olo, but it's a bit of a vicious circle. For whatever reason -- in-the-closet, self-hating folks or just people who actually believe it for no particular reason -- there is and has long been a lot of hatred expressed towards gays and lesbians, often with the justification of religion. So I think that atmosphere is part of what contributes to the disgust.

My 3.5 yr-old daughter is a fashion fiend and is already really into the idea of wedding dresses, and weddings. (It's in that order, though -- a wedding is pretty much just an occasion to wear a wedding dress.) So she is always talking about how she is going to marry her friend Jack and what they will wear. I thought it was cute and all, and then I was like, wait... how come she never talks about marrying her friend Claire? How has she already internalized that girls marry boys/ women marry men?

So I started being a little more aware of that. For example, I usually read the paper with her in the morning; there was a picture of a gay couple embracing and when she asked (she always asks "what's that?" or "who are they?"), I said those were two men who loved each other and were getting married. I said it like it wasn't a big deal, she didn't miss a beat.

Anyway, my point is that this is self-perpetuating, and the cycle needs to be broken at some point -- which I think we are making progress towards. It is only "disgusting" if that is how you are socialized -- heterosexual sex can be pretty disgusting, too, if you overthink it. So in your example, olo, if people were not so disgusted by the fact that they are attracted to the same sex, they wouldn't then look to the bible for justification of that disgust, and of course that disgust contributes to the socialization of future gay or bi people... etc.

My point was clearer when I started this, I've been interrupted 18,000 times. Hope something came through.

I'm sure this protest will go unoticed, but I think it's going too far to say that people are against homosexuality and religion is fake in one breath, which is what everyone is doing.

I had a comment to question a few posts ago and have lost it. Think it was to SCoates... back in a minute.

Oh yeah, the challenge to obo re an opinion on religion and he/she should defend his position.. which was clearly not the main point.

what, everybody has to defend posiions for and against at all times?

SCoates, no, your comment didn't go unnoticed. Have we been reading the same thread, I wonder?

I must have missed the part where somebody or other said that "religion is fake". As for the rest of that sentence, it doesn't make much sense grammatically. Would you care to elaborate?

The convenient thing about 'god' is that you can pick and choose between the god of love, and the god of vengeance. I'm guessing the god of love couldn't care less about who loves who. The god of vengeance would probably disagree, but that god is just an invention of humans who don't understand religion or spirituality at all.

The thing that frustrates me is that the issue of homosexuality has beocme so polarized like so many other social and political issues. I think this hinders constructive debate and slows finding constructive solutions.

For instance, there are those who are researching the possibility of a 'cure' for homosexuality for those who want to be heterosexual. This, of course, assumes that some gay or lesbians WANT to be heterosexual. I know a few people who honestly believe all gay and lesbian people would choose heterosexuality if they in fact did have a choice. Those arguing that point of view think is is compassionate to continue the research.

But others say even to consider that homosexuals could/would/should change implies that there is something wrong with being gay or lesbian. They say the suggestion of a 'cure' is not compassion at all and is in fact homophobic.

And here I am seeing both points of view as valid. (Except I think some of my gay friends would not choose to change even if they could.)

Foxfyre
Foxfyre, I hope you are sitting down because I wouldn't want you to hurt yourself falling over in shock. :wink:

I agree with you.

There are too many variations of sexuality in this world to try to find simple explanations for any of them.

BBB

I wasn't trying to explain religion, because all this we are discussing really shouldn't have anything to do with religion and I don't think it have (other than the fact that some use it where I think it doesn't apply). I don't know if I'm able to explain religion, but I still have an opinion, perhaps I could explain my personal perception of religion if that was the issue.
I've experienced that disgust myself and I don't think that that disgust is a good thing, but nothing is forever and all things change, for the bad or the worse, according to ones actions, and truthfully I allmost never feel that disgust for homosexuality anymore
Actually when I realized that I couldn't justify my disgust other than it was a feeling inside of me I thought that I should say to myself the following sentence: "My disgust for homosexuality is just a hoax, homosexuality is not really disgusting." My conscious knew it was true but I didn't believe in it at first so it felt very hard to say it.

I really hope that I'm making any sence with what I just wrote.

To BBB: Well you know the old saw: "Even a clock that is stopped. . . ." Probably in a different setting many of us would find several areas of agreement and could find more constructive ways to discuss areas of disagreement.

Olobolo, I think you made perfect sense and I hope you don't get ripped for it. Many of us have inate or instinctive aversion to things we haven't been exposed to or don't understand. Once we intellectually readjust our position on something, it sometimes takes awhile for our feelings about it to catch up.

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I agree. I had a strong aversion towards close minded, bigoted people. However, since there are more than a normal number in my family, I've overcome that to actually try to understand their point of view, then I open their eyes to other viewpoints.

When Sam and I moved to this Ojibwa reservation, there were comments made in stagewhispers about us. After meeting with some of these same individuals at veteran meetings,in town or at pow wow. they've changed to acceptance or at least tolerance. They found that we're just people that want to live a decent life, even though it's different from theirs. Many are now friends.

Wiyaka, thank you for your comments. I think you and Sam would not only be accepted, but would be embraced in my social circle.

You gently and beautifully stated my personal belief that tolerance requires a measure of understanding of intolerance.

Awwww! Thanks, that's very nice.