Poll: Can Gays & Lesbians alter their sexual orientation?

Well well. Here's David Brooks, conservative columnist for the NYTimes, someone who often writes and speaks like a trendy sleazeball, writing about "gay marriage" or really, about marriage and commitment. He makes a great point...

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The Power of Marriage

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truth
Brooks makes a good point, commitment is better than contingency for the benefit of society. Imagine if all marriage were banned. If heterosexual males could not marry heterosexual females. The rate of violence between males for women would soar. It seems, according to some anthropologists, that a major societal function of marriage is to provide pairs of individuals with a monopoly of sexual access to their legally sanctioned mates. But for centuries in much of the world this function has also been served by polygyny and polyandry (the two major forms of polygamy). Granted, cheating and adultery have not been totally abolished by this monopoly function, but the rate of violent competition for mates has been substantially reduced, if only for its normative moral force. Make something a law and USUALLY most people will also think it's morally right as well.
By the way, Brook's description of a successful marriage in terms of becoming one, is actually a description of co-dependency. The healthiest marriages I know of are between whole mutually respecting individuals. Who want to be halved by marriage to one's "better half"?
And sometimes divorces ARE made in Heaven.

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Terrific points, JL. Really good. I don't like to like Brooks but in my eagerness to applaud his clever, turnabout thesis, I didn't think about the ramifications...

"Make something a law and USUALLY most people will also think it's morally right as well." That's great. May have to change my signature quote!

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Men are so much more romantic than women, something which has a least a slight kinship to Hitler's kindness to pets.

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That's a really interesting article, tartarin. Although I suppose that means I've committed spiritual suicide by rejecting the whole idea of marriage at all. I think they can thank Bush for turning marriage into a really good empolyee benefits plan, though.

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I committed spiritual suicide, too, Rufio!

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truth
I did too, once, after a youthful divorce. But then I resurrected. Don't like living without companionship. Even remarried the wife of my youth.

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Well, I don't know about Rufio, but I ducked spiritual suicide, I guess, by being "sort-of" married a couple of times. Was that spiritual self-abuse?

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truth
Tartarin, Laughing

Might be.

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Maybe spiritual arificial life-support...

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Frank Apisa wrote:

For certain there are lots of guys who are 2's through 5's -- but you and EhBeth are really trying to make that seem almost pathalogical.

What everyone should do is to allow everyone else to have his/her own sexuality -- and allow that to be okay without all the judgements.

Excuse me?
Frank, read what I said.

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Maybe it's the people I choose to be friendly with - or they chose me - or something in between ... but ... I am having difficulty thinking of any 0's or 6's in my circle. My experience is with a world of 2's and 3's and 4's.

I didn't say anything about judging people. I was commenting on my personal circle. There's nothing in there about people being TOO gay or TOO straight for me to consider them as friends. Sexuality is not on my list of things to evaluate people by.

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All the gay people that I have known told me they've felt that way ever since they were a child.

Of course, there are some who are kind of experimenting with that way of life, and such an experience may last years and years. This is where other factors may come into play (such as the abused woman turning to other women example).

However, my vote is on the genetic factor. To be attracted to teh same sex since childhood and to NEVER have sexual feelings towards the opposite sex just reinforces that point.

Live and let live, I say. Hetero/Homo, as long as we respect one another it shouldn't make a difference either way.

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truth
Heywood, I agree completely. But have you ever noticed (as if you could not have) that once an individual experiments with homosexuality it becomes his or her "master status?" (as Black's racial status has been for them). No matter what else they are, unless they are retrospectively seen as exceedingly important as, say, composers (like Tchaikovsky), writers (like Wilde or Vidal) or painters (like Hockney), their achievements will be eclipsed--in terms of their social identity--by their homosexuality. Happily that is less the case today than in the days of Tchaikovsky; poor man, his closest friends advised him to commit suicide. You've all heard the joke of the man who complained that even though he was awared the greatest of military medals, the Nobel Peace prize, knighted, etc. he was disgraced because he "sucked one c------!". Today it is becoming more and more the case that closests are only for hanging up clothes. In Tchaikovsky's day (and later of course) it was a survival mechanism.
I'm leaving for a week. Keep up the delightful discussion for me to read when I return. Thanks.

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I don't know, heywood, one would think that if homosexuals knew their sexuality from birth, heteros would too. I certainly had no feeling on the issue for a good long time. In fact, I have to join tartarin in being terrified of the idea at first.

I heard a speaker a couple years ago who talked about how activism is counterproductive (on all issues) because it simultanously stigmatizes the already stigmatized group, and ignores the others. When you hear about "gender" you single out women and ignore men. When you hear about "race" you single out blacks, and latinos, and whatnot and ignore whites. When you hear about "sexuality" you single out gays and ignore heteros. There's plenty of social constructions associated with men, whites, and heteros, but no one pays them any attention. IMHO, if we're going to talk about homosexuality, we should talk about heterosexuality on the same grounds.

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ehBeth wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

For certain there are lots of guys who are 2's through 5's -- but you and EhBeth are really trying to make that seem almost pathalogical.

What everyone should do is to allow everyone else to have his/her own sexuality -- and allow that to be okay without all the judgements.

Excuse me?
Frank, read what I said.
Quote:
Maybe it's the people I choose to be friendly with - or they chose me - or something in between ... but ... I am having difficulty thinking of any 0's or 6's in my circle. My experience is with a world of 2's and 3's and 4's.
I didn't say anything about judging people. I was commenting on my personal circle. There's nothing in there about people being TOO gay or TOO straight for me to consider them as friends. Sexuality is not on my list of things to evaluate people by.

Don't get your laundry twisted, EhBeth.

I included you in that thought iincorrectly.

I cannot really remember what I was thinking when I wrote it, but I was referring to what Tartarin had written -- and must have used your name since Tartarin's remarks were occasioned in response to something you had written.

You in a bad mood?

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Can homosexuality be changed.
Sodomizers tend to be sodomizers by nature, and so are presumably rarely changeable. Those who like to be sodomized do so because they are addicted (semen contains addictive chemicals capable of being absorbed well by the digestive system). The sodomized can be changed in all likelihood, but it is difficult, akin to changing an alcoholic. As for lesbians, I suspect that most of them are really confused bisexuals or perhaps have had bad experiences with males that make them underestimate their natural desires for males while simultaneously needing female support which they confuse for homosexuality. I suspect pretty much all females have a (perfectly innocuous) capacity to feel erotic feelings for other females.

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There does seem to be a genetic basis for homosexuality, but it plays a relativly minor role.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aso/databank/entries/dh93ge.html

The study which you linked to turned out to be bogus, or at any rate not able to be replicated. I know the clamor surrounding the discovery that the gay gene study was bogus was not nearly as strong in the mostly gay media, but here is a link to that news story. Study Questions Gene Influence on Male Homosexuality

To those on this forum supporting sodomy: The purpose of sodomy is enslavement. It is evil. The well-meaning of you are just assuming that it is not. I have decided it is evil because I have thought carefully about it. You, I presume, are assuming it is not evil because you have the wrong sort of faith, a faith that makes you assume things merely because other people say they are so. The faith you require is the faith to doubt. Think back to when you were a child. Would sodomy have appeared beautiful to you? I think not. It is disgusting. Really, is there anything more disgusting? Too many of you, you laugh at yourselves like nothing matters. Well, let me tell you beauty matters and your own sense of the aesthetic matters. But cowards, cowards are you for the most part--Still feeling the need perhaps to inwardly cowtow to the domineering ****-praising brats who you felt you had to appease in elementary and middle school. Were this the nineteenth century the most of you would likely be against sodomy and innocuous lust both. Now that we're here you're just as much pawns of prevailing fashion as you would have been then. This is bad. About sodomy people tend to be more conformist than anything else. Accordingly, in a sense there is nothing worse or more dangerous for the majority to be in error about.

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Re: Can homosexuality be changed.

step314 wrote:

Sodomizers tend to be sodomizers by nature, and so are presumably rarely changeable.

I do so hate those who try to change me! Very Happy

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Those who like to be sodomized do so because they are addicted

What about the "tops?"

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(semen contains addictive chemicals capable of being absorbed well by the digestive system).

And what might these be?

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The sodomized can be changed in all likelihood, but it is difficult, akin to changing an alcoholic.

Is this like changing a baby?

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As for lesbians, I suspect that most of them are really confused bisexuals or perhaps have had bad experiences with males that make them underestimate their natural desires for males while simultaneously needing female support which they confuse for homosexuality.

You haven't met many lesbians, have you? Rolling Eyes

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I suspect pretty much all females have a (perfectly innocuous) capacity to feel erotic feelings for other females.

And this is supposed to be new information? The same is true for males.

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There does seem to be a genetic basis for homosexuality, but it plays a relativly minor role.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aso/databank/entries/dh93ge.html

The study which you linked to turned out to be bogus, or at any rate not able to be replicated. I know the clamor surrounding the discovery that the gay gene study was bogus was not nearly as strong in the mostly gay media, but here is a link to that news story. Study Questions Gene Influence on Male Homosexuality

Since you didn't provide any confirmation for your opinion, I shan't bother to adress it.

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To those on this forum supporting sodomy: The purpose of sodomy is enslavement.

And you know this because....

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It is evil.

Dana Carvey, is that you? I love the Church Lady! Very Happy

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The well-meaning of you are just assuming that it is not.

For Shame! God hate those who mean well! Rolling Eyes

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I have decided it is evil because I have thought carefully about it.

Just out of curiousity, have you ever been exposed to formal logic? P.S.: Did thinking about it get you excited? Wink

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You, I presume, are assuming it is not evil because you have the wrong sort of faith,

And how is the megalomania thing working for you?

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a faith that makes you assume things merely because other people say they are so.

As compared to your faith that....?

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The faith you require is the faith to doubt.

I doubt you have any idea what you are talking about.

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Think back to when you were a child. Would sodomy have appeared beautiful to you?

Prior to aged 11, sex in general seemed like a big yicky thing!

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I think not.

I can tell. Rolling Eyes

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It is disgusting.

That's nice. Smile

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Really, is there anything more disgusting?

War, hate, killing, disease, famine, poverty, ignorance, stop me if I'm boring you...

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Too many of you, you laugh at yourselves like nothing matters.

As opposed to being pompous and taking yourself much too seriously?

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Well, let me tell you beauty matters and your own sense of the aesthetic matters.

Eeeew...are you one of those guys who waxes his chest and has cosmetic surgery to implant pecs and calf muscles? Confused

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But cowards, cowards are you for the most part--Still feeling the need perhaps to inwardly cowtow to the domineering ****-praising brats who you felt you had to appease in elementary and middle school.

Someone had an unhappy childhood, and it wasn't me! Shocked

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Were this the nineteenth century the most of you would likely be against sodomy and innocuous lust both.

Doubt it. Ahh how I regret I missed the era when I could have cuddled up to a ballerina in the evening and a pretty youth in the afternoon!

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Now that we're here you're just as much pawns of prevailing fashion as you would have been then.

Is that why my girlfriend frequently expresses annoyance with my wardrobe? (Fashon hint for those on a budget...black goes with everything, and doesn't expose your penchant for coffee! Very Happy

)

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This is bad.

I've read worse prose.

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About sodomy people tend to be more conformist than anything else.

Never begin a sentence a preposition with!

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Accordingly, in a sense there is nothing worse or more dangerous for the majority to be in error about.

See the comment about war, hatred, killing, bigotry, etc...

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Thank you, hobitbob!

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step314 seems to be addicted to his theory about semen addiction. it's kind of amazing the topics he can attach it to. I'm waiting to see it in the acronym thread.

Nice work, hobitbob. How did you know I wear all black outfits 3 or 4 days a week?

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Applause for the bobbin' hobbit.

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