DOES NOTHING EXIST???

@Night Ripper,

How do you know there were no minds then?

@Fil Albuquerque,

That sounds like it fits somewhat with the Holographic Paradigm.

Also, The Measurement Problem in Physics. Where particles don't have definite form unless they are being observed. Like navigating through a 3D virtual reality where the scene only exists if you are looking at it.

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@Cyracuz,

Quote:

How do you know there were no minds then?

Right, I wouldn't assert this, but I suppose it's possible that the mind of God existed prior to the inflation of the Universe.

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@Neil D,

And why would that be ? What "God" would we need prior to the Universe ?
It may well be that there are an Infinite chain of Big-Bangs...

...I look at "The Program" as a complete trans-temporal "machine" where given enough time all potential geometrical and mathematical interactions will eventually happen in a discrete frame of space...and it probably goes forever repeating itself again and again...no need for "beginnings" or "ends" nor "Gods" in the equation.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

I'm not talking about God in the traditional sense. I find that too repulsive. I'd rather think of God in terms of a force, such as a Unified Field/Superforce. An initial cause. I'd prefer to extrapolate a God-like thing, from something that is somewhat known, than to rely on history/writings which I also find repulsive. If I am to pursue this "God" at all. As I said, I would not assert the existence of any such thing, it is merely a theory.

An infinite chain of Big Bangs is a different theory. That fits with M-Theory. In which our Universe would be part of a Multiverse. An infinite number of Universes existing in the Bulk. Which also yields the possibility of an infinite number of God-like forces.

Quote:

...I look at "The Program" as a complete trans-temporal "machine" where given enough time all potential geometrical and mathematical interactions will eventually happen in a discrete frame of space...and it probably goes forever repeating itself again and again...no need for "beginnings" or "ends" nor "Gods" in the equation.

When you combine statements such as "given enough time", and "no beginnings or ends". It sounds as though you are mixing finite linear time with eternity. While one can be measured because it has frames of reference(past, present), the other has no such reference, so statements such as "given enough time" refer to a segment of time which can only be measured in a linear timeframe. Any such attempt to extract a segment of time from eternity is arbitrary. Events require time in order to occur, but time itself seems to lose any value in the context of eternity. And when you speak of all potential interactions happening, you are setting limits within eternity. Wouldnt it make more sense that an "infinite" number of events occur in an eternal timeframe?

I think eternity needs to be better understood. To me it seems more magical, than reasonable. Maybe you could give a more elaborate decription of your particular abstraction of time within which these events occur. Just to say "no beginning or end" or eternal, leaves a little to be desired. Its like saying "God". A very vague concept. Maybe eventually, given enough time, abstract ideas such as these will have more elaborate explanations. But I won't hold my breath.

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@kennethamy,

kennethamy wrote:

mark noble wrote:

As simple as that.........DOES NOTHING EXIST???

In your opinion - does nothing exist, has it ever existed, can it ever exist?

Hardly, since if nothing existed you could not ask the question. Therefore, since you asked the question, something exists. QED.

Now try another question: "Does nothing is nonexistent?"

Then consider that a unicorn does not exist, and since at least a unicorn is nonexistent, nothing is not nonexistent. Q.E.D.

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@laughoutlood,

laughoutlood wrote:

Quote:
Or does nothing mean a lack of any detectable effect ?

Nothing means nothing.

Which means nothing has no meaning. However, it has a meaning, so its meaning is not nothing.

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@mark noble,

mark noble wrote:

Hi All,
Please excuse Kennethamy, He is the troll of perfection that amuses himself at derailling threads. Nevertheless, I feel the need to attend to the point of my question, at this point, What with Hexhammer on his way over to beat me senseless with his non-existent bat, and all.

Can "SOMETHING arise from "NOTHING" - "SOME THING" + "NO THING"? Thank you, I'm certain nobody will have a clue as to what I am delivering here, but I'm also certain that Ken will have less of a clue, and likely introduce us to this clueless situation.

By the way A Lyn. You are spot on, Once again! Thankyou all, and have a lovely day.
Mark...

Nothing could arise from nothing if it were not also something, which it is, and considering that something can arise from something, something can arise from nothing (indeed, "nothing can arise from nothing" already means that something called "nothing" can arise from within itself).

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My interpretation of "nothing", would be the absence of space and time. Which seems impossible to imagine. That means: no matter, energy, space, or time. Absolutely nothing. It's a very bizarre thought. Reason would dictate that if there was ever a time when nothing existed, then nothing would exist now.

There is a theory however, that the Universe did in fact come from nothing. Its an expansion of The Big Bang theory. But reason seems to fail here, there could be a problem with reason. It could be more of a barrier to ultimate truth, when the answer is more magical then logical.

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@Neil D,

Neil D wrote:

My interpretation of "nothing", would be the absence of space and time. Which seems impossible to imagine. That means: no matter, energy, space, or time. Absolutely nothing. It's a very bizarre thought. Reason would dictate that if there was ever a time when nothing existed, then nothing would exist now.

There is a theory however, that the Universe did in fact come from nothing. Its an expansion of The Big Bang theory. But reason seems to fail here, there could be a problem with reason. It could be more of a barrier to ultimate truth, when the answer is more magical then logical.

Necessarily, being and nothing are the same (if you are curious, I can give you the reasons). But also necessarily, they must be different. What you call absolute nothingness is where nothing is different from being -- or where being collapses, which is the same. However, since nothing is also a being, it is always originating something. I am not talking about the origin of the universe, I am talking about right now.

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@Neil D,

Neil D wrote:

There is a theory however, that the Universe did in fact come from nothing. Its an expansion of The Big Bang theory.

Those theories use mathematics as their language, but mathematics necessarily fails regarding nothing: the proper mathematical way of dealing with nothing is the division of zero by zero, which is also a full-blown mathematical collapse.

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@Neil D,

No Neil D...you cannot have Infinite Quality...or Infinite diversity, as Infinity in order to be must relate to Being, and Being must be a precise confined "Thing"...rather you must instead understand to what such word (Infinity) refers, and that, what it really is, is nothing less then simple circular movement of Being itself, in itself, and for itself...even movement cannot arise from nothingness as its "blueprint" resides also in Being...which amounts to say that there´s no true Infinity (magical thinking)...thus this frame of reference also ends up explaining simultaneously why is it that things can actually communicate between themselves without transcend each others nature... the "One" and the "many" together !...

(In Mathematics, even considering fractions, all numbers end up being variations of one, and zero as a thing that turns up having a value in the relation works as its shadow and not really as a true zero...)

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To say that it is impossible to imagine the absence of space and time is not to prove that they must exist. To say that something--like God and unicorns--must necessarily exist because we have concepts for them is to ascribe God-like powers to our imagination and language.

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@JLNobody,

Quote:

To say that it is impossible to imagine...

"IS" or "It ISN´T" ?
...otherwise you are contradicting your own conclusion...(although I think we all get what you correctly meant...)

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Sounds like what you are descibing is an eternal recurrence of a finite number of things. In some respects, this is an agreeable theory to me. So do you also think that manifestations of consciousness are also of a finite nature, and that at some point after your death you will exist again? Does this fit with your theory?

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@Neil D,

I went a step further then that...I suggested all in fact is 3D (or more dimensions) frozen like...the movement in it is an "effect" simulated by pattern repeatability along the String of information.

(Ex: The lights sequence movement in a casino...) (off & on...zero´s & one´s...binary code)

...speculating I would dare that the "trick" may be done, when we understand the difference between potential and actual, fazing "in" and "out"... two different states on reality which in fact is à priori (all potential, all Info)...the collapse of the wave function, each to a parallel Universe covering all possibility's given current variation on Universal Laws does it if we consider a discrete frame of space...of course, Hard Determinism is in place in such view...

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@Fil Albuquerque,

...what I find absolutely amazing is that, as we are somehow aware on the potential variations for action that we may take, (other parallel Universes) Freedom of choice is perfectly simulated even if we are in fact conditioned to choose what we must...Ingenious ! (Cause/Effect still hold and Order is saved out of apparent Chaos)

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

...what I find absolutely amazing is that, as we are somehow aware on the potential variations for action that we may take, (other parallel Universes) Freedom of choice is perfectly simulated even if we are in fact conditioned to choose what we must...Ingenious ! (Cause/Effect still hold and Order is saved out of apparent Chaos)

Probability is not chaos: it leaves room for both determination and indetermination. If you say there is a 30% chance of something happening, you are attributing both determination and indetermination to it. Also, the word "chaos" is misleadingly used to name a mathematical theory that is perfectly, although not practically, determinate.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Time is also considered a dimension, so it would at least be 4D. M-Theory states mathematically that 11 dimensions exist: 4D space time + 6 Calabi manifold + 1 spatially extended dimension(referred to as the Brane I think). Its quite abstract.

When I started watching High Def tv. I thought how much more it resembled reality. And with the introduction of another dimension, it would be more difficult to tell the difference. I realized that the particles and atoms that make up matter, are similar to the pixels that create high Def. Also the pattern reapeatability you speak of is the same as the refresh rate on a tv. So possibly eventually we may be able to construct virtual worlds.

Its an interesting theory, but im not sure if I buy into it yet. Also, this theory, to me seems more of a product of design, then a mathematical probability. And I would also wonder in a world that is the result of randomness/mathematical probability, that the result would be a sustainable world(we would still exist), but the outcome would be much less desireable than the world we live in.

I know lots say the world is a very imperfect place, but to me, it is perfection.

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@Neil D,

1 - ...probability is about knowing not about happening...(when the wave collapses probability falls to zero)..now I guess your talking about equilibrium distribution on events as they unfold.

2 - ...again, design imply´s time to design or wish for something to become...that which is already does not need a designer in order to be...it simply is there forever...Potential World is LAW itself made "thing" !
...not opposed to nothingness, which it is n´t, but as everything everywhere...

3 - Don´t buy my theory just yet...I am certain it is incomplete...at the present time is more of an intuition then a theory...

Regards>FILIPE DE ALBUQUERQUE

1 Reply

DOES NOTHING EXIST???

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