The necessary truth of any truth

@kennethamy,

kennethamy wrote:

ughaibu wrote:
kennethamy wrote:
A possible father need not be a father. But a tall father need be a father. Therefore, no possible fathers are fathers. QED.
This syllogism is nonsense
it is valid, it guarantees the truth of its conclusion

But it isn't valid and its conclusion is false!!

1 Reply

@ughaibu,

ughaibu wrote:

kennethamy wrote:
ughaibu wrote:
kennethamy wrote:
A possible father need not be a father. But a tall father need be a father. Therefore, no possible fathers are fathers. QED.
This syllogism is nonsense
it is valid, it guarantees the truth of its conclusion
But it isn't valid and its conclusion is false!!

Right. I mis-wrote the conclusion. It should be, no possible fathers need be fathers. Thank you. I wrote too hastily. But with that error corrected, the argument is sound.

1 Reply

@kennethamy,

kennethamy wrote:

ughaibu wrote:

kennethamy wrote:
ughaibu wrote:
kennethamy wrote:
A possible father need not be a father. But a tall father need be a father. Therefore, no possible fathers are fathers. QED.
This syllogism is nonsense
it is valid, it guarantees the truth of its conclusion
But it isn't valid and its conclusion is false!!

Right. I mis-wrote the conclusion. It should be, no possible fathers need be fathers. Thank you. I wrote too hastily. But with that error corrected, the argument is sound.

Have you been in the liquor cabinet again, Ken? I thought your mother kept it locked.

1 Reply

@Razzleg,

Razzleg wrote:

kennethamy wrote:

ughaibu wrote:

kennethamy wrote:
ughaibu wrote:
kennethamy wrote:
A possible father need not be a father. But a tall father need be a father. Therefore, no possible fathers are fathers. QED.
This syllogism is nonsense
it is valid, it guarantees the truth of its conclusion
But it isn't valid and its conclusion is false!!

Right. I mis-wrote the conclusion. It should be, no possible fathers need be fathers. Thank you. I wrote too hastily. But with that error corrected, the argument is sound.

Have you been in the liquor cabinet again, Ken? I thought your mother kept it locked.

Actually, I drink nothing but wine, when I do drink at all. But it does not take much for me to miswrite. Haste makes waste. As for my mother, alcohol was mother's milk to me.

0 Replies

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

I bet he failed in logic.

There's no need to insult me.

There are several meanings to the word "opinion" but the one I'm referring to is that opinions are subjective statements.

When I say, "ice cream tastes good" that's an example of an opinion. It's not something that is subject to being right or wrong. On the other hand, some people call things opinions when the really mean propositions.

When a doctor says, "you have cancer" that is a proposition. It's subject to being right or wrong. If you want to communicate effectively then you should try to be as precise as possible. Also, being polite is conducive to mutual understanding as well.

2 Replies

@Night Ripper,

Of course most opinions are subjective statements, but they can still be right or wrong. Would you go see a dentist to get a cure for cancer? He can still give you his/her opinion, and it certainly is subjective. Can he/she be right or wrong? If you agree, you are now contradicted with your first statement that opinions cannot be right or wrong.

2 Replies

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Would you go see a dentist to get a cure for cancer? He can still give you his/her opinion, and it certainly is subjective.

Why would you think a claim that I have cancer is subjective? Whatever the reason, you're wrong. Whether or not I have cancer is an objective fact.

0 Replies

guigus wrote:

Is "bats have wings" and instance of the principle of identity? How is that?

No, but it is an example of a contingent truth. You know, the sorts of truth people think you're claiming do not exist.

guigus wrote:

What I mean is "necessarily, all truths are true" or "all truths are necessarily true," which are the same to me, and not "all truths are necessary," which would be a form of determinism.

This is the problem. You're not understanding why "necessarily, all truths are true" and "all truths are necessarily true" are not identical. They are not identical because the different positions of the modal operator, "necessary", change the meaning of the sentence.

The first sentence, "necessarily, all truths are true" is tautologous, and Swartz calls the necessity in this first sentence "relative" necessity, and what he means by this is that the necessary condition in that sentence is, the truth is true. Given that condition, the truth is true! And that's all that sentence means. The second sentence, "all truths are necessarily true", however, means, as you say, "all truths are necessary". It means that contingent truths do not exist, and that every truth is a necessary truth. And this is false.

The problem seems to be not that you believe that all truths are necessary, but that you cannot understand the difference between these two sentences. I have no clue how the discussion got this out of control, especially if this is the only issue. There's no need to talk about possible fathers, actual fathers, fat fathers, thin fathers, or sex with fathers.

2 Replies

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Of course most opinions are subjective statements, but they can still be right or wrong. Would you go see a dentist to get a cure for cancer? He can still give you his/her opinion, and it certainly is subjective. Can he/she be right or wrong? If you agree, you are now contradicted with your first statement that opinions cannot be right or wrong.

That I have an opinion is, of course, subjective in the sense that opinions are mental. But what my opinion is about need not be subjective. I opine that London is the capital of the UK. But whether London is the capital of the UK is not subjective.

1 Reply

@kennethamy,

kennethamy wrote:

I opine that London is the capital of the UK.

Why wouldn't you just say that you believe that London is the capital of the UK? What information do you add by saying "opine" instead of "believe" or "think"?

1 Reply

@Night Ripper,

The point is that opinions can be right or wrong.

1 Reply

@Zetherin,

Zetherin wrote:

Probably none in that example, but the point was that opinions can be right or wrong.

Of course they can be if you think that "opinion" is just another word for a belief or a thought since some beliefs or thoughts can be wrong. Just like "pigs" can fly if you think that "pig" is just another word for an airplane.

I think that's kind of a waste of time to use imprecise language like that though. Why not say something unambiguous instead? Why not use "opinion" to mean a subjective belief so that you can actually convey something useful?

1 Reply

@Night Ripper,

Night Ripper wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:
I bet he failed in logic.

There's no need to insult me.

There are several meanings to the word "opinion" but the one I'm referring to is that opinions are subjective statements.

When I say, "ice cream tastes good" that's an example of an opinion. It's not something that is subject to being right or wrong. On the other hand, some people call things opinions when the really mean propositions.

When a doctor says, "you have cancer" that is a proposition. It's subject to being right or wrong. If you want to communicate effectively then you should try to be as precise as possible. Also, being polite is conducive to mutual understanding as well.

Whether ice-cream tastes good is what is called, "a matter of opinion". A matter of opinion Quine describes as something where there is "no fact of the matter". That is, to take your example, there is no fact as to whether ice cream tastes good or not. So, the up-shot is that ice-cream tastes good is neither true nor false. Since there is no fact (or lack of fact) to make it either true (in the first case) or false (in the second case). But not all opinions are matters of opinion. It is not a matter of opinion whether London is the capital of the UK, but it can certainly be my opinion that London is the capital of the UK. Here, "opinion" is a species of belief. But opinion is usually a belief with little or even not support. We then we make that explicit by saying something like, "it is only an opinion" meaning that it lacks support. And sometimes we say, it is only my opinion, to emphasize that no one shares that belief, or for all you know, no one shares that belief. So, an opinion is a kind of weak belief: weak in two ways; 1. it may be weakly held, without much conviction, or it might be weakly supported. Or both. And don't forget, too. it might be weakly shared.

2 Replies

@kennethamy,

It's not up to you to make any designation whether a statement is an opinion or a proposition. They are different words with different meanings.

Quote:

Main Entry: opin·ion
Pronunciation: \ə-ˈpin-yən\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin opinion-, opinio, from opinari
Date: 14th century

1 a : a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter b : approval, esteem
2 a : belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge b : a generally held view
3 a : a formal expression of judgment or advice by an expert b : the formal expression (as by a judge, court, or referee) of the legal reasons and principles upon which a legal decision is based

Quote:

prop·o·si·tion
/ˌprɒpəˈzɪʃən/ Show Spelled[prop-uh-zish-uhn] Show IPA
–noun
1. the act of offering or suggesting something to be considered, accepted, adopted, or done.
2. a plan or scheme proposed.
3. an offer of terms for a transaction, as in business.
4. a thing, matter, or person considered as something to be dealt with or encountered: Keeping diplomatic channels open is a serious proposition.

1 Reply

@kennethamy,

kennethamy wrote:

But not all opinions are matters of opinion.

Why not? Why aren't opinions matters of opinion and facts matters of fact? What exactly is the "matter of" doing that "opinion" can't accomplish all by itself?

0 Replies

@Night Ripper,

Night Ripper wrote:

Zetherin wrote:

Probably none in that example, but the point was that opinions can be right or wrong.

Of course they can be if you think that "opinion" is just another word for a belief or a thought since some beliefs or thoughts can be wrong. Just like "pigs" can fly if you think that "pig" is just another word for an airplane.

I think that's kind of a waste of time to use imprecise language like that though. Why not say something unambiguous instead? Why not use "opinion" to mean a subjective belief so that you can actually convey something useful?

As I pointed out, "opinion" is a kind of belief, but the kind of belief that is: weakly held, or weakly supported; or weakly shared by others; or all three. Ordinary language is, of course, imprecise as compared with technical language but what would you expect. But it isn't so imprecise that we cannot still make useful distinctions in it, as I hope I just did. The trouble with "opinion" meaning "subjective" belief is that I am not clear what a subjective belief is supposed to be. All beliefs are subjective in the sense that they are mental. On the other hand, we say that beliefs are subjective when the propositions believed are subjective. For example, suppose I believe that chocolate ice cream does not go well with spaghetti sauce. Well that is about a matter of taste, so I suppose it is subjective. On the other hand, I bet most people will share that belief. On the other hand, an objective belief would be a belief that London is the capital of the UK. Let's note that the term "belief" is ambiguous as between the mental fact of believing or holding the belief, and what is believed, the proposition that is believes, which may concern an objective fact. I think you mean by a subjective belief not the belief itself, that what is believed is, itself, something subjective. For example that chocolate ice cream tastes better than does vanilla ice cream. And you would like to call that kind of belief (what is believed, that is) an opinion. And we do, in fact do that. But remember that physicians may also have opinions about whether someone has measles. And that is not subjective. The regimentation of ordinary language might be tried, must it must be tried gingerly.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

It's not up to you to make any designation whether a statement is an opinion or a proposition. They are different words with different meanings.

Well I didn't, so I took your advice before I learned of it. What does it mean to say that a statement is a proposition, anyway? I never heard anyone say that.

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@kennethamy,

kennethamy wrote:

As I pointed out, "opinion" is a kind of belief, but the kind of belief that is: weakly held, or weakly supported; or weakly shared by others; or all three.

Alright. So, if an opinion is a weakly held, supported or shared belief then does that mean that a matter of opinion is a matter of a weakly held, supported or shared belief?

That doesn't seem to fit with your earlier mention of Quine saying that opinions are something where there is "no fact of the matter". Can't I weakly believe, support or share that London is the capital of the UK even though there is such a fact of the matter? It seems you're playing a kind of shell game using multiple definitions of the word "opinion" like some street magician.

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kennethamy wrote:

As I pointed out, "opinion" is a kind of belief, but the kind of belief that is: weakly held, or weakly supported; or weakly shared by others; or all three.

I don't think that is true. I can think of a number of opinions from doctors (for instance) which are not weakly held or weakly supported, and, in some cases, not even weakly shared by others.

But I suppose if you're trying to regiment ordinary language...

1 Reply

@Zetherin,

Zetherin wrote:

I don't think that is true.

Neither do I, especially since one of the earlier examples was a doctor's "professional opinion" which doesn't sound weak in any of those senses. In fact, I would expect a "professional opinion" to be very strong or else I'd be getting a new doctor.

I think it's more likely that common language can be rather ambiguous and that, as philosophers, we should try to use precise definitions. That's why I suggest that opinions, at least the meaning distinct from just another belief or thought, is a subjective belief. That would at least convey something new without duplicating meanings unnecessarily.

0 Replies

The necessary truth of any truth

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