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Does time really exist?

 
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2010 06:37 pm
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;171456 wrote:
No, I meant what I wrote, as is my habit. However, if you think that I've lost an argument, perhaps you can state what that argument is.


Nah. What for? It is enough that you realize it. And recognize that you are not the same as your knees.
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2010 06:45 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;171457 wrote:
Nah. What for? It is enough that you realize it.
I dont realise it, because I dont recall you offering any argument.
kennethamy;171457 wrote:
And recognize that you are not the same as your knees.
I have never entertained the claim that I am the same as my knees.
0 Replies
 
Flying Dutchman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 02:17 am
@Diogenes phil,
When the words "I am" are applied to something, as in: I am a baby, they immediately take a temporal position. So "I am a baby" and "I am 50 years old" cannot both be true.
imfreakinman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 02:33 am
@Diogenes phil,
Time is pretty metaphyscial, its nothing we can compeltely understand. I mean, i think we guage time astrologicaly, through the rotations of planets orbiting moons and etc. time is such an odd subject... Ive actually read about time being manipulated, ive only begun to scratch upon the surface.. i believe it was called "gravitational time dilation" then when atomic clocks are farther away from the center of gravity of the earth (such as space), they start to slow down compared to the atomic clocks kept at sea level on earth...

i dont believe in time. I find it weird then i was born in this era and not maybe 3873987932793274 years ago. I believe before being physicaly human, there was notjhing, and when im dead and gone, there will be nothing.

so, just because were born in this era (or even this dimension?) how do we know its the present? what if people in past eras are still living thinking its the present? or what if we are the past era?

the way i see it, as soon as your born, your dead. my life compared to the anicent life span of the universe itself, i havent even been on this rock for a second. smaller being live faster and shorter lives compared to larger beings..
0 Replies
 
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 03:00 am
@Diogenes phil,
I think we can understand time perfectly, or at least reduce it to its minimum component --and this is concept, and the most basic concept, that behind a word like "being" is its minimum component.

But this reduction is so complete as to be worthless, except for the clarity involved. There is no change without memory. There is no past without memory. There is no future without fantasy made from memory. There is no memory without concept. What is concept? Concept is its own sort of being. But words like concept and being are concepts. And concepts are beings. The most general classes are members of one another. So the most minimal or fundamental concept must be abstracted from what all concepts have in common. Unity.

I know this sounds weird. Smile
imfreakinman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 03:35 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;171651 wrote:
I think we can understand time perfectly, or at least reduce it to its minimum component --and this is concept, and the most basic concept, that behind a word like "being" is its minimum component.

But this reduction is so complete as to be worthless, except for the clarity involved. There is no change without memory. There is no past without memory. There is no future without fantasy made from memory. There is no memory without concept. What is concept? Concept is its own sort of being. But words like concept and being are concepts. And concepts are beings. The most general classes are members of one another. So the most minimal or fundamental concept must be abstracted from what all concepts have in common. Unity.

I know this sounds weird. Smile


nah your on a roll dude. i understand. its like trying to break basic elements; its impossible (or is it?). So im taking it when you say unity, your referring that it has some kind of pattern? i mean, thats how i believe we measure things. How can measure something that has no beginning and no end? what is unity?
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 04:51 am
@imfreakinman,
imfreakinman;171658 wrote:
nah your on a roll dude. i understand. its like trying to break basic elements; its impossible (or is it?). So im taking it when you say unity, your referring that it has some kind of pattern? i mean, thats how i believe we measure things. How can measure something that has no beginning and no end? what is unity?

We measure time with life, and measure life with time. It is an infinite... We measure one infinite with another just as we measure justice with liberty...
0 Replies
 
davidm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 06:50 am
@Flying Dutchman,
Flying_Dutchman;171644 wrote:
When the words "I am" are applied to something, as in: I am a baby, they immediately take a temporal position. So "I am a baby" and "I am 50 years old" cannot both be true.


In the case of eternalism, normal, idiomatic language misleads us.

Eternalism posits that the "I" is the totality of you; and it claims that the totality of you includes all of you in time, from birth to death. So, the "I" who is now typing this post, is not the totality of me; it is simply a part of me, like my knees are spatially a part of my body. The rest of me is extended throughout time, between my birth and death.

Under this scenario, sentences like "I am a baby," or "I am 50 years old" are not accurate. Eternalism would require constructions like: "A temporal part of me at some time x is in a stage of babyhood;" and "a temporal part of me at some later time y is in a stage of adulthood."

---------- Post added 06-01-2010 at 08:56 AM ----------

prothero;171321 wrote:
Wasn't the original form of eternalism, the omniscient and eternal nature of God?
Wasn't the conception of god as eternal standing outside of time and viewing history form the beginning (alpha) to the end (omega) like a man on the hill watching a caravan cross the desert?
Does not eternalism have all the same problems about fixity of the future and the past as divine omniscience?
Granted relativity deprives us of "simultaneous" events, but it does not deprive us of the past, present and future from a particular reference point and relativity itself gives nonsense results at the extremes of its equations.


I don't see what problem you are invoking. Is it the idea that if God is omniscient, or if the past, present and future all exist, then somehow we have no free will?
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 08:04 am
@Diogenes phil,
Eternalism??? What do you know of time beyond your own??? The further removed is the past and the future the more uncertain it becomes, and yet we talk of the eternal... Wouldn't that be some sort of infinite beyond our grasp??? Yes; but that fact does not stop people from making positive statements about infinity, or in your words: the eternal... It might just be typical hogwash presented as fact...
davidm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 08:57 am
@Fido,
Fido;171710 wrote:
Eternalism??? What do you know of time beyond your own??? The further removed is the past and the future the more uncertain it becomes, and yet we talk of the eternal... Wouldn't that be some sort of infinite beyond our grasp??? Yes; but that fact does not stop people from making positive statements about infinity, or in your words: the eternal... It might just be typical hogwash presented as fact...


Eternalism just says that time is like space. Just as all places in space exist, all places in time exist, too. Of course, what do we know of infinite space? Do you know what's going on in, say, the Andromeda galaxy? Even if eternalism is true, we're subjectively limited in time and space both.
Flying Dutchman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 03:29 pm
@davidm,
Eternalism does not necessarily imply a lack of free will. Your choice can still represent a real choice that originates with you. You always have and always will make that choice, but it's still your choice forever and always.
0 Replies
 
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 03:34 pm
@imfreakinman,
imfreakinman;171658 wrote:
nah your on a roll dude. i understand. its like trying to break basic elements; its impossible (or is it?). So im taking it when you say unity, your referring that it has some kind of pattern? i mean, thats how i believe we measure things. How can measure something that has no beginning and no end? what is unity?


Unity is anything that is understood as a whole, as singular. And it's all through our human thinking. All of our abstractions are unties. When I say "cat" I am referring to what all cats have in common. I have unified all particular cats into an ideal cat that doesn't exist except as concept...and this concept which exists as its own kind of reality is what time is made of. That's my theory. Because memory and fantasy are made of exactly the same stuff. And we can only talk because of abstractions. Even an individual cat is an abstraction. When we see Fluffy, we see her face and torse and tail and whiskers are part of a whole. And Fluffy changes and moves and is never exactly the same Fluffy, but we speak and think of Fluffy as ONE "thing" when in fact Fluffy was experienced by us through our eyes, ears, nose, etc. and of course emotionally, in a million or billion different ways. But we can't really count emotion or color or smell. So concept is its own thing, and this is where number and time stem from. That's my argument. Where does the purple unicorn live? Now it lives in your "logical space" or imagination or "system of concepts." And all of these phrases (Logical space, etc) also exist within your system of concepts. It gets pretty wild.....:detective:
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 05:36 pm
@davidm,
davidm;171726 wrote:
Eternalism just says that time is like space. Just as all places in space exist, all places in time exist, too. Of course, what do we know of infinite space? Do you know what's going on in, say, the Andromeda galaxy? Even if eternalism is true, we're subjectively limited in time and space both.

Space and time do not exist except as coodinates plotted in each of them... We need them segmented and measured to make sense of our reality, which does exist only because we can, with another infinite, our minds, fill in the blanks... We think of many infinites, moral realities like God without any evidence that they are real, and our thoughts about time and space does not give them a certain reality... Instead, we talk of space in terms of time, and time is terms of space... How long from here to there??? Distance is time, and time is distance..
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 09:22 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;171787 wrote:
Unity is anything that is understood as a whole, as singular. And it's all through our human thinking. All of our abstractions are unties. When I say "cat" I am referring to what all cats have in common. I have unified all particular cats into an ideal cat that doesn't exist except as concept...and this concept which exists as its own kind of reality is what time is made of. That's my theory. Because memory and fantasy are made of exactly the same stuff. And we can only talk because of abstractions. Even an individual cat is an abstraction. When we see Fluffy, we see her face and torse and tail and whiskers are part of a whole. And Fluffy changes and moves and is never exactly the same Fluffy, but we speak and think of Fluffy as ONE "thing" when in fact Fluffy was experienced by us through our eyes, ears, nose, etc. and of course emotionally, in a million or billion different ways. But we can't really count emotion or color or smell. So concept is its own thing, and this is where number and time stem from. That's my argument. Where does the purple unicorn live? Now it lives in your "logical space" or imagination or "system of concepts." And all of these phrases (Logical space, etc) also exist within your system of concepts. It gets pretty wild.....:detective:

Because memory and fantasy are made of the same stuff??? I would like to see some of that stuff if you please, and until you can produce some I would not say: because...

Still, you are solid in most of your conculsions in regard to concepts... Where things go wrong is where we take the ability to abstract reality with concepts, and try to form concepts around moral reality... We do that with infinites like time and space, but each defies conception, and abstraction... Yet, we may conclude that everything and nothing make up existence...
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 11:40 pm
@Fido,
Fido;171936 wrote:
Because memory and fantasy are made of the same stuff??? I would like to see some of that stuff if you please, and until you can produce some I would not say: because...

What I mean is that concept has its own type of existence. It's not sensation or emotion. Where is concept? I am making a slight leap by equating memory with fantasy, but fantasy should be understood as project. What we expect. We imagine that if we leave the door unlocked, someone might creep in and steal. Or we go buy a bottle of wine because we remember the last time, and we desire in the present this conceptual past, and act in order to "make it so. " We conceive of the future in terms of the past. And concept is its own substance. Actually, i would say that substance is always and only concept. But we confuse this concept with its associated sensation. Plato and Aristotle were both right. They balance one another out. And Hegel tweaked it a bit. We can create new concepts and forget old concepts. Only pure concept is always with us, for this is what the others are "made of. "

---------- Post added 06-02-2010 at 12:47 AM ----------

Fido;171936 wrote:

Still, you are solid in most of your conculsions in regard to concepts... Where things go wrong is where we take the ability to abstract reality with concepts, and try to form concepts around moral reality... We do that with infinites like time and space, but each defies conception, and abstraction... Yet, we may conclude that everything and nothing make up existence...


Thank you! This is why the TLP is such a brilliant book. He methodically demonstrates pretty much exactly what you are saying up there. This link is mostly for others, but it may interest you if you haven't examined it already. As far as ethics goes, the letter kills. Because the letter is always a lie, a reduction of the spirit/ethic/good.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/5740/5740.txt
0 Replies
 
thack45
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Jun, 2010 11:24 pm
@Reconstructo,
Will there ever be a 16 page thread entitled, "Does distance really exist?"? I doubt it. I am with the camp that thinks we might be making too much of what time is, and I also agree with Reconstructo...
Reconstructo;163763 wrote:
What is this strange word "exist"? Does love exist? Does the idea of nothingness exist? I think it comes down to the definition of "exist" and also of "time."

I don't think that either can be perfectly defined, unless we narrow the meaning down for a particular application.
... As in what way do you mean "exist"? If time's existence hinges on its tangibility and/or manipulatability(?) then, no, I don't belive that time "exists" in these ways.

imfreakinman;171648 wrote:
Time is pretty metaphyscial, its nothing we can compeltely understand.
Isn't time only metaphysical in as much as metaphysics makes it so?

imfreakinman;171648 wrote:
Ive actually read about time being manipulated, ive only begun to scratch upon the surface.. i believe it was called "gravitational time dilation" then when atomic clocks are farther away from the center of gravity of the earth (such as space), they start to slow down compared to the atomic clocks kept at sea level on earth...
Time dialation is the result of the finite speed of cause and effect, or information (otherwise known as the speed of electromagnetic radiation - or light) and is always dependent on frame of reference. If you were able to view the universe from outside of it - knowing that time dialation might be happening within it, you would not see the age of the universe change because of it.
0 Replies
 
north
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jun, 2010 09:40 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;171173 wrote:
There can be no change without there being time,


true

but change does not require time too change

time is a consequence of change

Quote:
but that does not mean that time and change are the same thing.


true

because they are not


Quote:
Nothing can go from not existing to existing, since that would assume that something existed before it existed, and that is a contradiction.


agreed
xris
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2010 06:07 am
@north,
Can something exist without time ? if time is relative to an event and if the circumstances of that event change, so does time. If time is that variable why not imagine an event without time? When we theorise on a singularity, we are observing a none event from an event. From a place of time we look at point with no time. Gravity appears the guide of time rather than the actual event, could we have the theoretical ability for thought in a singularity?
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2010 06:48 am
@xris,
xris;174168 wrote:
Can something exist without time ? if time is relative to an event and if the circumstances of that event change, so does time. If time is that variable why not imagine an event without time? When we theorise on a singularity, we are observing a none event from an event. From a place of time we look at point with no time. Gravity appears the guide of time rather than the actual event, could we have the theoretical ability for thought in a singularity?

Wrong question... Can anything exist without us making note of its existence, saying it exists, knowing it exists... We are the essential element to all existence not because we make everything happen, or be; but because we make everything matter... We find meaning in existence... We find meaning in time... We find meaning in space... When we die all will die with us, and whether or not everything hangs on or is swallowed up in our anuses is immaterial... Matter without us matters not...
xris
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2010 06:56 am
@Fido,
Fido;174180 wrote:
Wrong question... Can anything exist without us making note of its existence, saying it exists, knowing it exists... We are the essential element to all existence not because we make everything happen, or be; but because we make everything matter... We find meaning in existence... We find meaning in time... We find meaning in space... When we die all will die with us, and whether or not everything hangs on or is swallowed up in our anuses is immaterial... Matter without us matters not...

A matter of our existence is not relative to what might be. My tree still falls and makes an awful sound without me hearing it. We are not essential, all we do is try and make sense of our ignorance.
 

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