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A completed theory of everything!

 
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 04:03 pm
@TuringEquivalent,
TuringEquivalent;142339 wrote:
what exactly what are the "dynamics and context"? If you mean dynamics from physics, then that is given a force law. Is that what you have in mind?

My friend, i am not trying to be vague, or confuse anyone here. Whatever i said, i can given you references, and precises definitions. Can you honest do me the same favor? I don` t look down on anyone, but i do want to at least understand the other guy.


---------- Post added 03-22-2010 at 05:08 PM ----------



---------- Post added 03-22-2010 at 05:14 PM ----------

...what I am trying to assert is that we are missing variables in the sum...cutting of objects or functions of what they really are in the beginning...I regard "emergence of properties" itself as a metaphor of something more intricate and complex that we are missing...look at the sentence if you please...emergence of properties ??? Jesus !!!
TuringEquivalent
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 04:17 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;142342 wrote:


---------- Post added 03-22-2010 at 05:08 PM ----------



No, friend, i know your intuition. You intuition( correct me if i am wrong) is that there could be many different worlds govern by different laws, but there is this super meta-law that governs the collection of worlds. You would called this collection a world. There could be meta- meta laws etc, and there could be collections within collections, but you would say they are one world.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 04:18 pm
@TuringEquivalent,
TuringEquivalent;142324 wrote:
This assumption can be rejected. What i say is more general than things. My argument do not appeal to states of the world, but to the causal laws which applies to it.


This assumption can be rejected, or that the distinction might not even make sense. Who is to say the universe is not complex? Dirac equation describes the electron, but is it complex or simple? Simple to who? If this equation is complex, then how how does it origin from simplicity? If it is simply, what are the equations, and why do they hold?



Key to what?





I think you are confused between natural selection, and cosmological theories. The former allow structures to become complex, while the latter is the search that the fundamentals of reality that are non-reducible. The non-reducible entities could be simple to a physicists, or complicated to an non-expert. My op posts do not appeal to any specific nature of our physical universe. My argument talks any logically possible TOE, and ask fundamental questions regard it. This i am afraid is more related to mathematical logic, model theory, and formal system than simple matter like the state of the world, or any particular physical theory.

---------- Post added 03-22-2010 at 04:43 PM ----------



Are you so self-important that you want to give the most shortest, incomprehensible answer? Fine.
I appear to have made a mistake with what quote button I should be pushing,sorry..

For this theory of the BB to be rejected it needs more clarification. We need originality to be defined before we invent a theory.

Im not looking at evolution with this theory but it might be consequence of the same theory. Nature exhibits the same compulsion as any growing complex element. It has to be described mathematically but it has be simple in its conception with the same ability to become complex. It will be relevant whatever the circumstance.

The electron describes the electron not the theory that created it , it might be complex, it might be simple, or simply a part of a more complex developement.
north
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 04:21 pm
@xris,
xris;142329 wrote:
Sorry but I dont see complexity becoming simple.


hydrogen atom , simple

hydrogen atom , complexity , one electron revolves a single proton


Quote:
The most complex molecule never reverts and becomes simple.


when broken down it would


Quote:
I suppose if you run the BB backwards...it might appear that way. But complexity is not where we should be looking for this theory, its in simplicity with a basic law that encourage complexity.


I see your point

however would not BB start off as complex ?

since if BB started out as a explosion , would not the energy within the BB be complex ?
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 04:24 pm
@TuringEquivalent,
TuringEquivalent;142348 wrote:
No, friend, i know your intuition. You intuition( correct me if i am wrong) is that there could be many different worlds govern by different laws, but there is this super meta-law that governs the collection of worlds. You would called this collection a world. There could be meta- meta laws etc, and there could be collections within collections, but you would say they are one world.
TuringEquivalent
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 04:36 pm
@xris,
xris wrote:
I appear to have made a mistake with what quote button I should be pushing,sorry..

For this theory of the BB to be rejected it needs more clarification. We need originality to be defined before we invent a theory.


No idea what "originality to be defined" mean here.

Also, not all people agree that theories are "invent".

Quote:

Im not looking at evolution with this theory but it might be consequence of the same theory. Nature exhibits the same compulsion as any growing complex element.


Friend, like i said before. Laws that are supposed to be fundamental are not the kind of things that "evolve" from anything. An electron is described by dirac ` s equation is not a consequence of any other law, or historical accidents. People can say the laws describes the electron, or that the law govern the electron, but no way the law( if it is the most fundamental) comes from anything.

Quote:
It has to be described mathematically but it has be simple in its conception with the same ability to become complex. It will be relevant whatever the circumstance.


Some computer scientist define complexity as the short length of the computer program that defines a particular language. I am all too familiar with Seth lloyd, but you need to know that even if our universe is a computer that evolved from a simpler state to a more complex one, there need to be laws , and in this case, the laws of quantum mechanics that "seed" each generation that gives variations. No matter what the state of the evolution of the universe, there would still be iron laws( QM laws, that makes the variation possible).
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 04:40 pm
@TuringEquivalent,
TuringEquivalent;142361 wrote:
No idea what "originality to be defined" mean here.

Also, not all people agree that theories are "invent".


I am one of them...nothing is invented if considered necessary...

TuringEquivalent;142361 wrote:
Friend, like i said before. Laws that are supposed to be fundamental are not the kind of things that "evolve" from anything. An electron is described by dirac ` s equation is not a consequence of any other law, or historical accidents. People can say the laws describes the electron, or that the law govern the electron, but no way way the law( if it is the most fundamental) comes from anything.


I certainly agree with this...how could it be otherwise ?
I even can quote myself from another thread:
Quote:

LAW is what justifies without being justified !



...The Ultimate Cause is not caused, once it is the true reason of all there is...

---------- Post added 03-20-2010 at 05:19 PM ----------

0 Replies
 
TuringEquivalent
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 04:47 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;142354 wrote:


1) Derive laws are great. They give us the prise of applies, but they are not the kind of things i concern myself with when thinking about the fundamental reality.

2) Just to give you a case. I am sure you know Neother theorm right? Well, a physics system has some quantities( ie: energy) conserved if the system is time symmetric. Suppose now, you have two worlds governed by different laws, and they do not share any differentiable space-time manifold. Could the two worlds be called a single physical system? If not, could there be a conserced quantities as energy by Neother ` s theorm? I think not. If there is not energy, then there is not lagrangian, or hamiltonian, so you would not be able to formulate a action principle for the world worlds. If not, then is there really a law? I think not.

Note:
I know things are getting technical, but this is not a simple subject matter. You have to know some physics, computer science, math, and specialize knowledge of philosophy. This is always a problem for me here. Once, again, i am sorry for making it too complicated.

---------- Post added 03-22-2010 at 05:54 PM ----------

Fil. Albuquerque;142363 wrote:
I am one of them...nothing is invented if considered necessary...


Not exactly. A theory could be though of as a predictive device. It could simply be the way it is. A theory about monsters, and dragons might not be true, but dragons, and monsters seems to be necessary with respect to the theory.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 05:07 pm
@TuringEquivalent,
TuringEquivalent;142365 wrote:
1) Derive laws are great. They give us the prise of applies, but they are not the kind of things i concern myself with when thinking about the fundamental reality.

2) Just to give you a case. I am sure you know Neother theorm right? Well, a physics system has some quantities( ie: energy) conserved if the system is time symmetric. Suppose now, you have two worlds governed by different laws, and they do not share any differentiable space-time manifold. Could the two worlds be called a single physical system? If not, could there be a conserced quantities as energy by Neother ` s theorm? I think not. If there is not energy, then there is not lagrangian, or hamiltonian, so you would not be able to formulate a action principle for the world worlds. If not, then is there really a law? I think not.

Note:
I know things are getting technical, but this is not a simple subject matter. You have to know some physics, computer science, math, and specialize knowledge of philosophy. This is always a problem for me here. Once, again, i am sorry for making it too complicated.


If there were two worlds they would have to have a common starting point and from there a singular a priori true set of rules...they would be rule entangled...the behaviour of energy would account for initial conditions by contamination from the beginning and the a posteriori local variations on rules would be explained from the initial set as a subduction of properties sort to speak...an apparent loss of critical mass but not a true vanishing of this rules...
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 06:03 pm
@TuringEquivalent,
TuringEquivalent;142287 wrote:
The "TOE" in physics might not even be possible according to one philosopher.
I dont see any reason to think that a TOE, as specified in your opening post, is possible, can you offer any reason?
This might interest you: Theory of Everything - Digital Physics
0 Replies
 
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 06:37 pm
@TuringEquivalent,
A completed theory of everything will solve some problems in physics but hardly any problems in philosophy or in society. It will change very little in the ordinary world which we inhabit. 3 of the 4 fundamental forces already have a unified theory; did that solve any problems in moral philosophy?
0 Replies
 
wayne
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 07:06 pm
@TuringEquivalent,
It is best to view the time space continueum as a linear equasion.
On the left matter enters finite space from infinity, to be shaped and governed by the four laws which define finite space. we'll call this point a white hole. Flowing like a river to the right it exits the four laws and is disassembled into infinity once again we'll call this a black hole.
In the left half of the continueum space time is compressed, the right half it is stretched. Matter enters and exits at the same relative speed but slows down in the middle.
Of course this leaves the four laws.
Our planets surface functions in this same way, expelled by volcanos to flow to subduction zones. Even the Human life span works this way.
0 Replies
 
TuringEquivalent
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 08:58 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;142370 wrote:
If there were two worlds they would have to have a common starting point and from there a singular a priori true set of rules...they would be rule entangled....


Like i said many times... This assumption can be rejected. If you mean a law as standardly conceived, there need to be an "energy" operator, but in order to define this operator, the two separate worlds need to be part of the same space-time. This is impossible, if we postulate worlds governed by different laws that are not part of a single space-time.

---------- Post added 03-22-2010 at 10:10 PM ----------

ughaibu;142379 wrote:
I dont see any reason to think that a TOE, as specified in your opening post, is possible, can you offer any reason?
This might interest you: Theory of Everything - Digital Physics


I don ` t want to be mean, but you have no glue on what i said, and the only reason you ask for a reason is because you don ` t know, and you are too scare to ask. I never, ever propose any TOE at all. In my op post, i pick out any logically possible TOE you can imagine, and proposed, and rise foundational questions regarding it. Accordingl, any TOE, you are going to have a model/interpretation/"valuation function", and there are infinite may models according to a theorem in logic. The TOE is itself logically contingent, and there infinity logically possible TOE.

---------- Post added 03-22-2010 at 10:11 PM ----------

prothero;142382 wrote:
A completed theory of everything will solve some problems in physics but hardly any problems in philosophy or in society. It will change very little in the ordinary world which we inhabit. 3 of the 4 fundamental forces already have a unified theory; did that solve any problems in moral philosophy?


No offense, but this is unrelated here.

---------- Post added 03-22-2010 at 10:14 PM ----------

wayne;142387 wrote:
It is best to view the time space continueum as a linear equasion.
On the left matter enters finite space from infinity, to be shaped and governed by the four laws which define finite space. we'll call this point a white hole. Flowing like a river to the right it exits the four laws and is disassembled into infinity once again we'll call this a black hole.
In the left half of the continueum space time is compressed, the right half it is stretched. Matter enters and exits at the same relative speed but slows down in the middle.
Of course this leaves the four laws.
Our planets surface functions in this same way, expelled by volcanos to flow to subduction zones. Even the Human life span works this way.


No offense, but i am not interested in mystical stories.
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 09:14 pm
@TuringEquivalent,
TOE would have to answer for its own engendering. And also predict the future or prove the future as unpredictable.
TuringEquivalent
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 09:18 pm
@Reconstructo,
come on....

I never feel so misunderstood....
0 Replies
 
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 09:22 pm
@TuringEquivalent,
Sorry, guy. I might have come not enough from a physics angle.
0 Replies
 
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 10:01 pm
@TuringEquivalent,
TuringEquivalent;142405 wrote:
I don ` t want to be mean, but you have no glue on what i said, and the only reason you ask for a reason is because you don ` t know, and you are too scare to ask.
The only reason I ask is because I'm too scared to ask? Either you have a reason or you haven't, I will assume that you haven't.
TuringEquivalent;142405 wrote:
I never, ever propose any TOE at all. In my op post, i pick out any logically possible TOE you can imagine, and proposed, and rise foundational questions regarding it.
I'm aware of the fact, so what?
TuringEquivalent;142273 wrote:
My intuition, and the intuition of many people with similar mathematical intuition is that reality can not be this boring. Might it not be possible that all logically possible TOE, and all possible models that applies to each exist. I mean there would be a universe described by some TOE, and some model that applies to this TOE, then there would be a universe that is isomorphic to the given TOE with this model. This feels right for me. what do you think?
I think your statement is ill-formed, no more than your opinion and a request for opinions from others, and your reception of the opinions offered is inappropriate.
Were you Immanuel?

TuringEquivalent
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 10:16 pm
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;142425 wrote:
The only reason I ask is because I'm too scared to ask? Either you have a reason or you haven't, I will assume that you haven't.I'm aware of the fact, so what?I think your statement is ill-formed, no more than your opinion and a request for opinions from others, and your reception of the opinions offered is inappropriate.
Were you Immanuel?



Again, i don ` t want to be mean. If i am wrong, tell me why. I am not afraid of bring in technical details. You avoid it by making personal attack, because you don` t know, and yet you want to comment. You can give me something that not everyone can ask? Do you have any good ideas? If you can give me one valid point, i would be happy. Until that time comes, good bye.
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 10:19 pm
@TuringEquivalent,
TuringEquivalent;142427 wrote:
Again, i don ` t want to be mean. If i am wrong, tell me why. I am not afraid of bring in technical details. You avoid it by making personal attack, because you don` t know, and yet you want to comment. If you can give me one valid point, i would be happy. Until that time comes, good bye.
As pretty much all your responses to me have been this kind of abrasive nonsense and after many similar experiences with you on the other board, I concur, good-bye.
TuringEquivalent
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 10:52 pm
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;142429 wrote:
As pretty much all your responses to me have been this kind of abrasive nonsense and after many similar experiences with you on the other board, I concur, good-bye.


You make no sense at all here. All i want is a valid point, or something that tells me you know something. Could you do even that? Can you even state my position? I bet i can state your view no matter how vague it is. You give me the reference on digital physics, but can you summaries digital physics for me. If i ask you a series of questions related to digital physics, you can answer them correctly? Can you do that without copying from other online sources? I bet you can`t. You think i am mean, but is it too much to ask that you actually understand the position that you are comment? Until you can show me you do understand at least my position, i am unwilling to take you serious. What i don ` t like is not that you don ` t understand, it is that you pretend to understand just to make a comment.
0 Replies
 
 

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