1
   

Doesn't darwinian theory fall apart on ontological grounds?

 
 
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Nov, 2009 09:13 pm
@l0ck,
l0ck;105685 wrote:
I fail to see how natural selection is at all present with human existence of today.
Study the genetics of sickle cell disease, including linkage analysis, and you'll see a flabbergasting example of natural selection.
l0ck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Nov, 2009 11:46 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes;105732 wrote:
Study the genetics of sickle cell disease, including linkage analysis, and you'll see a flabbergasting example of natural selection.


Disease? AIDs? The concept that that mutations are not spontaneous, and thus statistically random events, and thus a effect of entropy, has not been widely accepted since the 1940s, before that we assumed mutations occurred in response to selective condition, and unless you are being racist, of which I assume you are not (ofcourse you are not, as a moderator I assume your passionate), the occurance of disease in these cultures is due to their progress, they are segregated from all the ideas and creations we are not, I would at least appreciate if you would research the modern view of a current situation.. Entropy is a ever increasing vortex of chaos that re-arranges all mass. It's form is present within the human genome, as it too is composed of mass. The human body is conscious, aware, and growing in awareness, but areas of the world where a paradigm that continues to exists in the minds of those which of that is no longer needed, are throughout history under metamorphism out of existence via entropia. From a perspective that doesn't include human compassion, such as one of economics (one we have created, one that rather than declines, grows), we have the means to help these cultures that fit this model, yet we do not, we grow away from it more and more as time goes on. It is not my intent to justify compassion, but simply apply a extension to the perspective in which to view a certain, and unfortunate incident, as even I have loved ones, direct family members whom of which are HIV+.

It is safe to assume human creativity will continue to evolve, we create everything, we will create means to write the human genome, we will create means to inherit our absolute nature, we constantly self-create obstacles in order to progress ourselves, and even one day, the physical form of the body itself will be evolved upon, as the earth is under thermonuclear expansion, and heat driving towards the surface will one day test our anatomic-prosthetic creations, I hope this provides at all the least bit of hope for the future of disease. It is safe to assume our creative means, which always include means of survival, will continue to do so, and as I have said, our creativity will cross and go beyond that of cohesion within the environment, this includes an eventual decline in population due to creations in fields such as autonomy, and replacement of human labor, but instead of focuses on mourn, we should turn our attention forward, and provide ideas around creating a means to these problems.
richard mcnair
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Nov, 2009 01:47 am
@Theaetetus,
Theaetetus;105508 wrote:
Why does time and space need to be created? Not to mention, why does there need to be 'mind' to create these things? "Co-creators of our own reality" implies that there is something besides us that creates our reality. What is this so-called co-creator? I can see how time does not exist as a thing in itself, because I assume you are talking about space-time, but why does space not exist as a thing in itself. It seems that space may be the only thing that truly exists as a thing in itself. Everything else seems to be dependent on something else, but empty space just is.


Space does not exist as a thing-in-itself. Think about what the three dimensions of space are. They are merely the relation between objects, or different points on the same object. Imagine you were floating somewhere in outer space, somewhere where you could not even see any stars of planets, just an infinite blackness. Also imagine you dont have a body, but are just basically a consciousness floating there - ie imagine a state where there are no objects whatsoever, and in that state space does not exist. Time is also the same - think about a similar state where there are no objects or occurances, you are also not breathing, or thinking. Once again time would not exist. Time and space are merely the form our mind gives external reality to make sense of sensuous input.

When I said we are co-creators of our onw reality, I didnt mean there was anything apart from us, I just meant that all conscious beings alone are co-creators with each other.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Nov, 2009 01:59 am
@richard mcnair,
As regards your interpretation of the 'necessary a priori', I think from my very modest understanding of Kant, if that is who you're referring to, that this is not something his philosophy would support. I think, and am quite willing to be corrected, that his outlook was one of 'transcendental realism' rather than 'transcendental idealism' in the sense that you seem to be indicating. I think he would say, not that we create time and space, but that the 'pure intuition' of time and space must always be assumed in any act of cognition. In that sense we are indeed co-creators of the reality that we experience, and that is the only reality that we know (as we cannot know the 'reality in itself'.)

I don't quite see how this has bearing upon the weakness of Darwinism as a philosophy though (even though I agree that Darwinism is great science and poor philosophy).

I think a more fruitful line of enquiry might be sought along the lines of the cosmological argument. It is one that I don't think Richard Dawkins has ever understood, let alone refuted.
richard mcnair
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Nov, 2009 02:20 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;105775 wrote:
As regards your interpretation of the 'necessary a priori', I think from my very modest understanding of Kant, if that is who you're referring to, that this is not something his philosophy would support. I think, and am quite willing to be corrected, that his outlook was one of 'transcendental realism' rather than 'transcendental idealism' in the sense that you seem to be indicating. I think he would say, not that we create time and space, but that the 'pure intuition' of time and space must always be assumed in any act of cognition. In that sense we are indeed co-creators of the reality that we experience, and that is the only reality that we know (as we cannot know the 'reality in itself'.)

I don't quite see how this has bearing upon the weakness of Darwinism as a philosophy though (even though I agree that Darwinism is great science and poor philosophy).

I think a more fruitful line of enquiry might be sought along the lines of the cosmological argument. It is one that I don't think Richard Dawkins has ever understood, let alone refuted.


Im not exactly sure of what you're saying - Kant certainly thought time and space were creations of our minds, and not that time and space exist independently of us, and that we experience, or intuit them if thats what you mean. (And just checking wiki quickly) he was a trascendental idealist, and not a transcendental realist. In the critique of pure reason he certainly states that time and space are mere relations that we use to structure experience.

My beef with darwinism (or probably more accurately dawkinsism) is that it imagines objects in time and space (primitive lifeforms) before any higher conscious being existed as 'all there was', and that everything about life can be explained in a process of evolution from that point. (I probably should have been more precise).
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Nov, 2009 02:41 am
@richard mcnair,
yes you're right, I stand corrected- transcendental idealism it was.

Nevertheless the weakness I feel about the naturalist argument is how 'intelligence' was spontaneously generated from 'dumb matter'. I think it is the same idea you have but I have a slightly different approach. Evolutionary biology would say 'well that is simple - consciousness evolves'. What I want to say is 'our capacity for consciousness evolved'. So they would say 'do you mean, consciousness is something that precedes evolution?' I think it is but it is very hard to articulate without falling back on some kind of religious formula. I mean, the world is full of scriptures which say something like that. But it ought to be demonstrable by some kind of philosophical argument. And I think that Western philosophy is actually the best source for that argument, out of all the world cultures.

The best one I have been able to come up with goes back to the Platonic idea of intelligibility. This is something along the lines that there is a transcendent level or realm of perception, which corresponded in Platonism to the realm of forms or ideals. There is an idea that the intelligibility of the Universe, which is certainly not apparent to the untrained mind, betokens a deep level of rationality about the way the universe works. Meanwhile the intellect within man corresponds with the intellectual order of the Universe. This was very much the province of the idea of 'universals' and is closely related to the various 'ontological proofs' of medieval times (all of which are always ridiculed by the ditchkens mob without them displaying the least inkling of what they are about.)

None of this is new, it is all part of Thomism, Augustine, and scholastic and medieval philosophy. I am still stumbling around it trying to find a foothold (never having studied the Classics, Latin, or the other parts of the Curriculum) I tried to articulate it inthis post on the nature of consciousness. I don't know if it is a good argument or not, but nobody really challenged it.
0 Replies
 
richard mcnair
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Nov, 2009 06:09 am
@richard mcnair,
Yes, excellent post. The thing that cant be answered naturalistically is for me the simple fact of subjective experience itself. I am a subjective experiencing being, i know this, I assume all other human beings, and animals are too. The dawkins/dennet - ites, are surely contradicted by the fact that you can build a machine as complex as you like, but never can you build a machine to subjectively experience, and the only way such a thing can be answered is through the transcendant and the mystical.
0 Replies
 
Dave Allen
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Nov, 2009 08:02 am
@l0ck,
l0ck;105685 wrote:
I fail to see how natural selection is at all present with human existence of today. We have self-created ways of dissolving this idea within our own species, even with the animals we love and care for, often now, the strongest do not survive, whereas the weakest often do.

From this vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TU-7d06HJSs

Quote:
For example, kinfolk in the village of Limone Sul Garda in northern Italy have a mutation which gives them better tolerance of HDL serum cholesterol. Consequently this family has no history of heart attacks despite their high-risk dietary habits. This mutation was traced to a single common ancestor living in the 1700's, but has now spread to dozens of descendants. Genetic samples from this family are now being tested for potential treatment of patients of heart disease.



Another example of new variance is the Glycophorin A somatic cell mutation which has been identified in some Tibetans, which allows them to endure prolonged periods at altitudes over 7,000 feet without succumbing to apoplexia, or "altitude sickness". A different, but similar mutation was identified in high altitude natives in the Andes.



Another example of that is the CCR5-delta 32 mutation. About 10% of whites of European origin now carry it. But the incidence is only 2% in central Asia, and is completely absent among East Asians, Africans, and tribal Americans. It appears to have suddenly become relatively common among white Europeans about 700 years ago, evidently as a result of the Black Plague, indicating another example of natural selection allowing one gene dominance in a changing environment. It is harmless or neutral in every respect other than its one clearly beneficial feature. According to Science-Frontiers.com, if one inherits this gene from both parents, they will be especially resistant, if not immune to AIDS.



Similarly, population genetics is being credited as one reason incidence of sickle-cell genes in African-Americans is apparently decreasing over time.



For another example we've also identified an emerging population of tetrachromatic women who can see a bit of the normally invisible ultraviolet spectrum.



There's also a family in Germany who were already unusually strong. But in one case, one of their children was born with a double copy of an anti-myostatin mutation carried by both parents. The result is a Herculean kiddo who was examined at only a few days old for his unusually well-developed muscles. By four years old, he had twice the muscle mass of normal children, and half the fat. Pharmaceutical synthesis of this mutation is being examined for potential use against muscular dystrophy or sarcopenia.



And then there's a family in Connecticut who've been identified as having hyperdense, virtually unbreakable bones. A team of doctors at Yale traced the mutation to a gene that was the subject of an earlier study. In that study researchers showed that low bone density could be caused by a mutation that disrupts the function of a gene called LRP5. This clued them that a different mutation increased LRP5 function, leading to an opposite phenotype, that is, high bone density. According to their investigators, members of this family have bones so strong they rival those of a character in the Bruce Willis movie, 'Unbreakable'.



All of these are examples of specifically identified mutations which are definitely beneficial, and which have spread through the subsequent gene pool according to natural selection. This is one of many indesputable proofs of evolution in humans. But we've identified beneficial mutations in other many other species too.


So as you can see, some populations of humans are benefitting from changes in their body's form or function as a result of mutation, and are passing those changes down to their descendants more often than not because of natural selection.

---------- Post added 11-25-2009 at 09:07 AM ----------

richard_mcnair;105787 wrote:
The dawkins/dennet - ites, are surely contradicted by the fact that you can build a machine as complex as you like, but never can you build a machine to subjectively experience, and the only way such a thing can be answered is through the transcendant and the mystical.

You assume such a machine is impossible, and you assume that that assumption points to a mystical answer as to why a biological machine capable of what you assume is impossible exists.

But such assumptions are just based on preferences for a mystical answer - not any readily apparent truth.
l0ck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Nov, 2009 08:58 am
@richard mcnair,
richard_mcnair;105777 wrote:
Im not exactly sure of what you're saying - Kant certainly thought time and space were creations of our minds, and not that time and space exist independently of us, and that we experience, or intuit them if thats what you mean. (And just checking wiki quickly) he was a trascendental idealist, and not a transcendental realist. In the critique of pure reason he certainly states that time and space are mere relations that we use to structure experience.

My beef with darwinism (or probably more accurately dawkinsism) is that it imagines objects in time and space (primitive lifeforms) before any higher conscious being existed as 'all there was', and that everything about life can be explained in a process of evolution from that point. (I probably should have been more precise).


As existence is composed of two separate magnitudes: finity and infinity, the one leads to the 2, and we can begin to form a logic of interpretation, since existence is composed of both infinite and finite expression, we can now apply our logic, and assume existence is atleast of infinite circumference, because if its circumference was that of finity, it would not achieve the capacity for infinite circumference. This means that even one infinite aspect of existence is enough to prove that the whole thing is of infinite proportion following our basic logic and premise. This allows us to begin using both finite and infinite logic's, and tools, to apply our model, and it means that existence is a infinite all inclusive set, a infinite set, and it's sub-sets are that of finity. Thus powers of infinity, thus Aleph-Powers and infinite set theory developed by George Cantor.

Infinite expressions cannot be measured, only compared, and are of mind. Since existence is a inclusive and integrally related whole (or infinite set), the fact that humans (conscious beings) can learn, and absorb quality (infinite expression), from the environment (mass, finite expression), means that infinite capacity must also not only exist in the environment as existence is again, a single whole that only appears to be separated, but infinite capacity also exists in their minds (are you getting the whole picture? mind? environment? capacity? paradox? reflection?), and the human is only a monadic extension of the environment.

The brain, physically, is not of infinite proportions, this is because the brain is only a tool used to interpret, thus process and collect and thus create, the environment around it. Like a dam, it hinders and collects energy from the flow of the infinite conscious awareness ocean, and as each is individually shaped, each ones limited perception of the environment too is individually shaped. Thus humanity's purpose is one of a conversion process between discovery of awareness, as the environment is externalized unaware form, and the quality the human has capacity for is a infinite and internalized form.

It can also be assumed, that since this is humanity's purpose, and thus reason for expression, and since nothing is expressed without purpose, that conscious life outside of human form will not be found, as we already contain that purpose, and instead we find ourselves.

Finite expressions, such as those of mass, can be measured. The instant mass is created, space is created, time is created, one cannot exist without the other for the purpose of finite expression.
0 Replies
 
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Nov, 2009 09:09 am
@l0ck,
l0ck;105743 wrote:
Disease? AIDs?
AIDS has been an epidemic for less than 30 years, and it's only known to have been in human populations for 50-100 years. Given the human generation time, there is no way we would see selective effects from this disease yet, especially because people with AIDS can (and do) reproduce and even without therapy about 75% of their children would be uninfected. There are MANY human mutations known to be protective against HIV, with CCR5 deficiency being the famous one.

l0ck;105743 wrote:
The concept that that mutations are not spontaneous, and thus statistically random events, and thus a effect of entropy, has not been widely accepted since the 1940s
This quote makes no sense for a variety of reasons. First, spontaneity and randomness are entirely unrelated concepts and therefore it is nonsensical to tie them together. Secondly, entropy is a thermodynamic phenomenon. You are using it inappropriately. Thirdly, entropy is not an "effect". It is, again, a thermodynamic phenomenon by which energy is lost in chemical reactions. Finally, whether mutations are random or not, what is NOT random is which mutations get preserved: it is the advantageous ones that get preserved.

l0ck;105743 wrote:
unless you are being racist, of which I assume you are not (ofcourse you are not, as a moderator I assume your passionate), the occurance of disease in these cultures is due to their progress, they are segregated from all the ideas and creations we are not, I would at least appreciate if you would research the modern view of a current situation..
I'm speaking from the point of view of someone who has done published research in the genetics of the malaria-host interaction in one of the most famous such labs in the world. I'm quite literate in the genetics of sickle cell disease, which by linkage analysis has independently arisen at least 5 times in Africa in the last 10,000 years -- which is coincidentally around the time that Plasmodium falciparum emerged as a species. The geographic distribution of the sickle cell allele is almost identical to that of the malaria parasite. Heterozygotes for sickle cell are significantly less likely to die of it or experience cerebral malaria and other complications. But homozygotes for it get sickle cell anemia and in the absence of medical care will die in childhood. So this mutation is SO advantageous that 5 separate times it has arisen -- but outside of malarious areas it is so deleterious that the mutation has become extremely rare. By nearly all statistical measures, malaria has been the single most important selective force on the human genome in the last 10,000 years.

Racist? What in god's name are you talking about.

l0ck;105743 wrote:
Entropy is a ever increasing vortex of chaos that re-arranges all mass.
Nice, poetic, but this has nothing to do at all with entropy as it is understood in science.
l0ck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Nov, 2009 09:22 am
@Aedes,
Aedes;105834 wrote:
AIDS has been an epidemic for less than 30 years, and it's only known to have been in human populations for 50-100 years. Given the human generation time, there is no way we would see selective effects from this disease yet, especially because people with AIDS can (and do) reproduce and even without therapy about 75% of their children would be uninfected. There are MANY human mutations known to be protective against HIV, with CCR5 deficiency being the famous one.

This quote makes no sense for a variety of reasons. First, spontaneity and randomness are entirely unrelated concepts and therefore it is nonsensical to tie them together. Secondly, entropy is a thermodynamic phenomenon. You are using it inappropriately. Thirdly, entropy is not an "effect". It is, again, a thermodynamic phenomenon by which energy is lost in chemical reactions. Finally, whether mutations are random or not, what is NOT random is which mutations get preserved: it is the advantageous ones that get preserved.

I'm speaking from the point of view of someone who has done published research in the genetics of the malaria-host interaction in one of the most famous such labs in the world. I'm quite literate in the genetics of sickle cell disease, which by linkage analysis has independently arisen at least 5 times in Africa in the last 10,000 years -- which is coincidentally around the time that Plasmodium falciparum emerged as a species. The geographic distribution of the sickle cell allele is almost identical to that of the malaria parasite. Heterozygotes for sickle cell are significantly less likely to die of it or experience cerebral malaria and other complications. But homozygotes for it get sickle cell anemia and in the absence of medical care will die in childhood. So this mutation is SO advantageous that 5 separate times it has arisen -- but outside of malarious areas it is so deleterious that the mutation has become extremely rare. By nearly all statistical measures, malaria has been the single most important selective force on the human genome in the last 10,000 years.

Racist? What in god's name are you talking about.

Nice, poetic, but this has nothing to do at all with entropy as it is understood in science.


The 2nd law of thermodynamics states that all nuclear particles are decaying. All things have half-life. Nothing stays the same forever. Entropy. I didn't intend to dismiss the assumption that you could not apply it's theory to the areas of creativity it was discovered in, I only implied, that all ideas, all proposition is created from proposition, thus philosophy, and I simply proposed a extended idea, not poetry. However, speaking of philosophy, moderator, all you have done is interject with descartaic syllogism in attempts to provide fallacy. But finite syllogism is not the only form I include in my toolbag, Aedes.

Every single thing you said fits the model I apply, savehow you can say spontaneity and randomness are un-related, a matter of interpretation of my symbolism, and your interpretations of thermodynamics being applied to a system. Both of which also apply to the model, as the reader is always free to interpret any text with it's own mind, and all text is individually interpreted, the symbol itself does not contain the quality.

It's not text that releases quality from mass. It's interaction, thus conflict, with the environment that thus teaches us. Academic study is not very qualitative, but quantitative however, to the point of repetition, as if to replicate its small and unequal size to that of conflict when compared to the true teacher.

My use of the term 'Racism', implying genetic difference, implying a model of Natural Selection in the self-created evolution of a species or, 'race', or creature, my symbology was referenced to the older dismissed idea that it was a selective condition that induced mutation, of which now we realize is not truth.

Natural Selection does not apply to our model. I then attempted to apply it to mankind, but it is a complete different system, because in this system, more and more, due to our creations, the weak do survive, and the strong do not. Throughout history, species of animals have had the idea of natural selection imposed within their purpose, a idea where a species of animal is constantly surviving due to its constant evolution toward a stronger/more efficient form of means of survival, but this only applies to the animal kingdom, and thus is the law of the jungle, and as we are not mere-animals, but conscious feeling and learning beings with a mind of infinite capacity, we do not fit this system of natural selection, we did, but we progressed past it by becoming more aware, as we create our condition. Our studies of amino acids are progressing at such a speed that one day we will create our genome, and thus realize we are creators of ourselves through our creativity.

As equals, we have no power over each other, and it can be said that a equal who does not see another as equal, and thus of them, under no amount of reasoning will accept them or their ideas. Often publishers, feel the need to express their infinite degree of interest in a subject by finite means of academic success, thus elevating themselves, but we have no power over each other, and each's assumed matter of existence is sufficient enough to accept your assumed ability to interpret the environment and that which you do not know.
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Nov, 2009 10:04 am
@l0ck,
l0ck;105838 wrote:
The 2nd law of thermodynamics states that all nuclear particles are decaying. All things have half-life.
No, actually, neither the 2nd law of thermodynamics nor the principle of entropy say anything about that.

Quote:
The second law of thermodynamics is an expression of the universal principle of entropy, stating that the entropy of an isolated system which is not in equilibrium will tend to increase over time, approaching a maximum value at equilibrium, and that the entropy change dS of a system undergoing any infinitesimal reversible process is given by δq / T, where δq is the heat supplied to the system and T is the absolute temperature of the system. In classical thermodynamics, the second law is taken to be a basic postulate, while in statistical thermodynamics, the second law is a consequence of applying the fundamental postulate, also known as the equal a priori probability postulate,[clarification needed] to the future while empirically accepting that the past was low entropy, for reasons not yet well understood.


l0ck;105838 wrote:
Entropy. I didn't intend to dismiss the assumption that you could not apply it's theory to the areas of creativity it was discovered in, I only implied, that all ideas, all proposition is created from proposition, thus philosophy, and I simply proposed a extended idea, not poetry.
If you want to talk about entropy, talk about entropy. If you want to use it as a metaphor, then make sure you're being clear that you are using scientific terminology in a way that is unrelated to its scientific definition.

l0ck;105838 wrote:
all you have done is interject with descartaic syllogism in attempts to provide fallacy.
By definition I did not give a syllogism. Syllogisms are logical constructs. I did not give a logical construct. I gave an empirical example that is evidence-based and the inference of ongoing human evolution is easily deduced from this evidence.
l0ck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Nov, 2009 10:31 am
@Aedes,
Aedes;105851 wrote:
No, actually, neither the 2nd law of thermodynamics nor the principle of entropy say anything about that.



If you want to talk about entropy, talk about entropy. If you want to use it as a metaphor, then make sure you're being clear that you are using scientific terminology in a way that is unrelated to its scientific definition.

By definition I did not give a syllogism. Syllogisms are logical constructs. I did not give a logical construct. I gave an empirical example that is evidence-based and the inference of ongoing human evolution is easily deduced from this evidence.


Again, symbolic fallacy and individual interpretation. Like in the realm of law, the more defined we are, the more dangerous/fallacious statements are to be created, therefore, you did give a logical construct, one that is of finite syllogism, and of single-view and thus perception. It is not definition that contains quality.
Dave Allen
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Nov, 2009 10:42 am
@Aedes,
Aedes;105851 wrote:
No, actually, neither the 2nd law of thermodynamics nor the principle of entropy say anything about that.

It's also worth pointing out that the law specifies an isolated system, and therefore isn't relevent to things that occur on the planet earth - which receives energy from elsewhere.
l0ck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Nov, 2009 10:46 am
@Dave Allen,
Dave Allen;105866 wrote:
It's also worth pointing out that the law specifies an isolated system, and therefore isn't relevent to things that occur on the planet earth - which receives energy from elsewhere.


We are a isolated, all inclusive, integrated system, of infinite proportions, energy is conserved, it cannot be created or destroyed, thus converted, e=mc^2. Thus we are a infinite set, who's sub-sets are simply conversions, and the whole is present within each of its parts, thus powers of infinity.

It's a whole, hints gravity, the conversion of all this energy, constantly, instantly, into finite form, to reflect upon man's mind, creates a inward flow, a constant one towards singularity, a literal pull upon mass, which is separated, thus not singular, thus resisting singularity, so the more mass, the more pull, inward, as gravity is all one thing, not a individual characteristic. It is safe to assume the black hole, is a symbol of our entire process, mass spirals in very aggressively at first, toward that same pull of singular oneness, and violently crashes against the event horizon, exploding into a single state of energy, as it is all very quickly released, until it finally gets so close that it is instantly released, and pops out of existence.

We are very literally in a fish tank, and there is a pump that recycles a flow in and around us.
Dave Allen
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Nov, 2009 10:59 am
@l0ck,
l0ck;105867 wrote:
We are a isolated, all inclusive, integrated system, of infinite proportions, energy is conserved, it cannot be created or destroyed, thus converted, e=mc^2. Thus we are a infinite set, who's sub-sets are simply conversions, and the whole is present within each of its parts, thus powers of infinity.

Depends on the relevent scope of whatever you are referring to as "we".

Evolution on earth takes place within the system of the earth.

Which isn't isolated - deriving masses of energy from the sun.
0 Replies
 
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Nov, 2009 11:20 am
@l0ck,
l0ck;105860 wrote:
Again, symbolic fallacy and individual interpretation.
The difference between science and logic is that in science everyone looks at the same thing. My interpretation of the data I've presented is hardly individual -- in fact it's not even controversial.

You are not employing science. You're not employing logic either -- I'm not even sure what you're arguing. You're making statements about logic that have nothing to do with logic. You're making statements about entropy that have nothing to do with entropy. You're accusing me of "syllogisms" even though my arguments do not contain the form of a syllogism and my are not based on the syntactical relationships that define syllogism.

So what are you actually saying??
Dave Allen
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Nov, 2009 01:47 pm
@l0ck,
l0ck;105867 wrote:
We are very literally in a fish tank, and there is a pump that recycles a flow in and around us.

A typical fish tank isn't an isolated system either. Someone outside the system keeps the water topped up, keeps the filter running, turns the light on and off, drops in some food now and then, buys the occasional new fish, the heat comes from an electric device or radiates through the glass, the pump is electrically powered, and so on...

---------- Post added 11-25-2009 at 03:11 PM ----------

l0ck;105867 wrote:
It is safe to assume the black hole, is a symbol of our entire process, mass spirals in very aggressively at first, toward that same pull of singular oneness, and violently crashes against the event horizon, exploding into a single state of energy, as it is all very quickly released, until it finally gets so close that it is instantly released, and pops out of existence.

The event horizon is the edge of a black hole, not the centre, it's at the circumfrence, the distance from the apparent centre where matter (as we normally percieve it) begins to collapse (as we percieve it).

That matter isn't likely to explode into energy. Matter is condensed energy, and gets condensed further in a black hole. It doesn't explode into energy - but implodes into ... something else.

As far as I understand, based on what I've read about black holes, from writers who admit not much is understood about them.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Nov, 2009 02:37 pm
@richard mcnair,
I am not a creationist, nor I think is the OP in this thread. There are many points on the spectrum between 'God made Eve from Adam's rib' and 'everything arises out of dumb matter'. It is interesting how hard it is for many scientifically-educated commentators to appreciate the breadth of this spectrum and the various shades of meaning to be found in it. That said, I am more on the side of the religious, and the more I debate the case, the more so I become. (By the way, if you haven't seen Terry Eagleton's original review of The God Delusion in the London Review of Books - 'Lunging, Flailing, Mispunching', you really must. Cracker of a read.)

We live a in scientific age, so it is natural to seek scientific explanations. And a good thing too, absoultely necessary in many respects. But the body is more than meat and man more than a product of biology.

I will give the last word to Schopenhaur:
Quote:
"Everything objective, extended, active, and hence everything material, is regarded by materialism as so solid a basis for its explanations that a reduction to this (especially if it should ultimately result in thrust and counter-thrust) can leave nothing to be desired. But all this is something that is given only very indirectly and conditionally, and is therefore only relatively present, for it has passed through the machinery and fabrication of the brain, and hence has entered the forms of time, space, and causality, by virtue of which it is first of all presented as extended in space and operating in time."



(Quoted in the Wikipedia entry on Materialism).
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Nov, 2009 02:50 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;105904 wrote:
It is interesting how hard it is for many scientifically-educated commentators to appreciate the breadth of this spectrum and the various shades of meaning to be found in it.
There are two debates that you may be conflating here:

1) What is the degree of controversy within science?

2) How does the array of scientific explanations compare with this spectrum of non-scientific explanations?

Often times people take question 2 and put it in the guise of question 1. But the issue in these debates is really NOT controversy in scientific terms (including the egregious misuse of the entropy idea). The spectrum of explanations that are consistent with empirical science is actually very narrow, and the areas of controversy are trivially microscopic.

But if you are entertaining explanations that fall outside the realm of empirical science, then the issue is really epistemological. And since evolutionary biology employs the SAME techniques as any other area of biology, then this epistemological question should cause you to doubt EVERYTHING else in biology -- which begs the question why the focus of controversy would be on evolution?
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