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electronic voting...potential for abuse

 
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Dec, 2003 09:04 am
I can understand the ire about electronic voting machines, but not the malice towards ex-felons holding jobs. Is it the fact that 5 ex-felons are working for them that bothers you? Do you think that because they are felons that they will somehow get in bed with one political party or the other and help them win the election?

Or is it just the fact that they are reformed criminals and you don't think they should be in a position of responsibility?

I don't feel that electronic voting is the way to go. Especially if they depend on paper receipts for the actual vote count. Seems redundant, wasteful, and too prone to mischivous behavior.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Dec, 2003 09:30 am
McGentrix wrote:
I don't feel that electronic voting is the way to go. Especially if they depend on paper receipts for the actual vote count. Seems redundant, wasteful, and too prone to mischivous behavior.


IMO, the actual vote counting isn't the advantage of electronic voting that should be pushed. Maybe when it's perfected it will be but at the moment it isn't. The advantages are in being able to provide a ballot and instructions in multiple languages without having to have interpreters at every polling place and the ability to produce a piece of paper that can be read were things like the voters "intent" isn't in question.

(I realize that things like translators may not be a big issue in some ares but in others, like here in MA, the issue is HUGE.)
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Dec, 2003 10:49 am
In Brazil electronic voting is used to give access to the vote to people who are illiterate.

The technology has proved useful in eliminating some confusions such as the "butterfly ballot" type of thing.

The candidates are assigned a polling number taht they use in their campaign ads.

The voter key's in the number (they are provided with a list with the names and numbers in case they forget) and then the picture and name of the candidate comes up. Then they confirm the vote and in thius way completely illiterate people vote with less confusion than they would with paper ballots.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Dec, 2003 10:50 am
I guess I am spoiled by the fact that I have always voted in New York State and the machines we have are very good. Maybe I should get out and vote somewhere else...
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Dec, 2003 12:37 pm
Craven de Kere wrote:
In Brazil electronic voting is used to give access to the vote to people who are illiterate.

The technology has proved useful in eliminating some confusions such as the "butterfly ballot" type of thing.

The candidates are assigned a polling number taht they use in their campaign ads.

The voter key's in the number (they are provided with a list with the names and numbers in case they forget) and then the picture and name of the candidate comes up. Then they confirm the vote and in thius way completely illiterate people vote with less confusion than they would with paper ballots.

I can only imagine the quality of representative chosen when voting is tailored to accomodate the illiterate. :wink:
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Dec, 2003 12:49 pm
Yep, and worse yet the vote is mandatory so those who have no interest in politics have to vote.

Thing is, with optional votes the votes are easier to buy (in a poor country buying votes is child's play).

They get a lot of candidates who run on "populist" campaigns. But their democracy is younger than I and is improving.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Dec, 2003 07:49 pm
Scrat wrote:
I can only imagine the quality of representative chosen when voting is tailored to accomodate the illiterate. :wink:


I think even an illiterate will often be quite aware of which way his bread is buttered ...

Imagine the alternative, in countries where the majority is illiterate ... "democracy" would mean they'd be governed by a minority, whose interests would often quite sharply diverge from theirs ...

Take a village: five landowners, a priest, a shopkeeper and thirty illiterate peasants. Which is more of a democracy, that which tailors its elections so that all of them can take part, or that whose elections only afford the seven literates to vote?
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Dec, 2003 01:26 am
nimh wrote:
Scrat wrote:
I can only imagine the quality of representative chosen when voting is tailored to accomodate the illiterate. :wink:


I think even an illiterate will often be quite aware of which way his bread is buttered ...

Imagine the alternative, in countries where the majority is illiterate ... "democracy" would mean they'd be governed by a minority, whose interests would often quite sharply diverge from theirs ...

Take a village: five landowners, a priest, a shopkeeper and thirty illiterate peasants. Which is more of a democracy, that which tailors its elections so that all of them can take part, or that whose elections only afford the seven literates to vote?

How about one that offers everyone an opportunity to learn to read, and then requires that you be able to read in order to vote?
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Dec, 2003 01:38 am
I think you underestimate the difficulties of offering everyone the alternative to read.

Someone who can do that would never lose an election.

It means everyone would eat (since people on the street begging to eat have bigger concerns than education).

Then you'd give them a place to live (the streets are dark, when the day of begging is done they need lights to read).

Then you'd have to build schools. Brazil is the richest of the third world nations in South America (Falklands is one of the richest territories on eath but only per capita and only cause of the military spending) and there are not enough seats for all the children. Parents wait in line starting the night before in schools miles away to secure a seat for their kids.

Then you have to have a culture in which parents care. Most parents send their kids to beg on the streets and they never learn to read. Learning as an adult is difficult for many reasons (though many do it). To do this you will have to pay for "cesta basica" (basic basket, means beans and rice, oil and other staples) for families who would starve if they put their kids in school. You will need to entice them because it's not realistic to expect them to willingly give up their only source of income (pan handling) to put their kids in school.

Then you have to build libraries and pay for them. The best public library in the biggest city in South America is smaller than the kids section of most small town US libraries.

If you can do that, you will have solved almost all of the country's problems and any election that could remove your presidency should be considered a threat to national security.

Note that I am using as a basis of comparison the nation of Brazil, which is among the richest of third world countries. And I am only touching on the limitations, there are many more.

Having uneducated people voting is a necessary evil for a democracy.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Dec, 2003 11:55 am
Scrat, yes, that would be the perfect solution. ;-)

(See Craven's post for anything else I might have wanted to say on that <winks>)
0 Replies
 
gozmo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Dec, 2003 07:19 pm
McGentrix wrote:
I can understand the ire about electronic voting machines, but not the malice towards ex-felons holding jobs. Is it the fact that 5 ex-felons are working for them that bothers you? Do you think that because they are felons that they will somehow get in bed with one political party or the other and help them win the election?

Or is it just the fact that they are reformed criminals and you don't think they should be in a position of responsibility?

I don't feel that electronic voting is the way to go. Especially if they depend on paper receipts for the actual vote count. Seems redundant, wasteful, and too prone to mischivous behavior.


Let me spell it out for you: These particular felons' felonies were to illegaly manipulate computer systems. I'd prefer they were employed in your bank rather than in their present positions.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Dec, 2003 06:20 pm
Parts of the article sampled below make it sound worse than it may be, and parts better:

Quote:
A Bellevue, Wash., company developing security technology for electronic voting suffered an embarrassing hacker break-in that executives think was tied to the rancorous debate over the safety of casting ballots online.

VoteHere Inc. confirmed Monday that U.S. authorities are investigating a break-in of its computers months ago, when someone roamed its internal computer network. The intruder accessed internal documents and may have copied sensitive software blueprints that the company planned eventually to disclose publicly.


Electronic voting firm acknowledges hacker break-in
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2004 07:48 am
If you want to be certain there's a paper trail for your vote, vote absentee.

If your precinct judge (the person in charge where you cast your ballot) cannot answer the following question in the affirmative, you might wish to consider an absentee ballot:

"May I have evidence of my vote, please?"

Don't take your democracy for granted.

Quote:
"voter-verified paper audit trail," starting in July 2005, and that the four California counties already using the high-tech systems must retrofit them with printers by July 2006.


Inside the Black Box
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2004 03:28 pm
Did anyone see

A Security Analysis of the Secure Electronic Registration and Voting Experiment (SERVE) Question Exclamation Question

Quote:
Our conclusions are summarized as follows:


a DRE (direct recording electronic) voting systems have been widely criticized elsewhere for various deficiencies and security vulnerabilities: that their software is totally closed and proprietary; that the software undergoes insufficient scrutiny during qualification and certification; that they are especially vulnerable to various forms of insider (programmer) attacks; and that DREs have no voter-verified audit trails (paper or otherwise) that could largely circumvent these problems and improve voter confidence. All of these criticisms, which we endorse, apply directly to SERVE as well.

b But in addition, because SERVE is an Internet- and PC-based system, it has numerous other fundamental security problems that leave it vulnerable to a variety of well-known cyber attacks (insider attacks, denial of service attacks, spoofing, automated vote buying, viral attacks on voter PCs, etc.), any one of which could be catastrophic.

c Such attacks could occur on a large scale, and could be launched by anyone from a disaffected lone individual to a well-financed enemy agency outside the reach of U.S. law. These attacks could result in large-scale, selective voter disenfranchisement, and/or privacy violation, and/or vote buying and selling, and/or vote switching even to the extent of reversing the outcome of many elections at once, including the presidential election. With care in the design, some of the attacks could succeed and yet go completely undetected. Even if detected and neutralized, such attacks could have a devastating effect on public confidence in elections.

d It is impossible to estimate the probability of a successful cyber-attack (or multiple successful attacks) on any one election. But we show that the attacks we are most concerned about are quite easy to perpetrate. In some cases there are kits readily available on the Internet that could be modified or used directly for attacking an election. And we must consider the obvious fact that a U.S. general election offers one of the most tempting targets for cyber-attack in the history of the Internet, whether the attacker's motive is overtly political or simply self-aggrandizement.

e The vulnerabilities we describe cannot be fixed by design changes or bug fixes to SERVE. These vulnerabilities are fundamental in the architecture of the Internet and of the PC hardware and software that is ubiquitous today. They cannot all be eliminated for the foreseeable future without some unforeseen radical breakthrough. It is quite possible that they will not be eliminated without a wholesale redesign and replacement of much of the hardware and software security systems that are part of, or connected to, today's Internet.

f We have examined numerous variations on SERVE in an attempt to recommend an alternative Internet-based voting system that might deliver somewhat less voter convenience in exchange for fewer or milder security vulnerabilities. However, all such variations suffer from the same kinds of fundamental vulnerabilities that SERVE does; regrettably, we cannot recommend any of them. We do suggest a kiosk architecture as a starting point for designing an alternative voting system with similar aims to SERVE, but which does not rely on the Internet or on unsecured PC software (Appendix C).

g The SERVE system might appear to work flawlessly in 2004, with no successful attacks detected. It is as unfortunate as it is inevitable that a seemingly successful voting experiment in a U.S. presidential election involving seven states would be viewed by most people as strong evidence that SERVE is a reliable, robust, and secure voting system. Such an outcome would encourage expansion of the program by FVAP in future elections, or the marketing of the same voting system by vendors to jurisdictions all over the United States, and other countries as well. However, the fact that no successful attack is detected does not mean that none occurred. Many attacks, especially if cleverly hidden, would be extremely difficult to detect, even in cases when they change the outcome of a major election. Furthermore, the lack of a successful attack in 2004 does not mean that successful attacks would be less likely to happen in the future; quite the contrary, future attacks would be more likely, both because there is more time to prepare the attack, and because expanded use of SERVE or similar systems would make the prize more valuable. In other words, a "successful" trial of SERVE in 2004 is the top of a slippery slope toward even more vulnerable systems in the future. (The existence of SERVE has already been cited as justification for Internet voting in the Michigan Democratic caucuses.)

h Like the proponents of SERVE, we believe that there should be better support for voting for our military overseas. Still, we regret that we are forced to conclude that the best course is not to field the SERVE system at all. Because the danger of successful, large-scale attacks is so great, we reluctantly recommend shutting down the development of SERVE immediately and not attempting anything like it in the future until both the Internet and the world's home computer infrastructure have been fundamentally redesigned, or some other unforeseen security breakthroughs appear. We want to make clear that in recommending that SERVE be shut down, we mean no criticism of the FVAP, or of Accenture, or any of its personnel or subcontractors. They have been completely aware all along of the security problems we describe here, and we have been impressed with the engineering sophistication and skill they have devoted to attempts to ameliorate or eliminate them. We do not believe that a differently constituted project could do any better job than the current team. The real barrier to success is not a lack of vision, skill, resources, or dedication; it is the fact that, given the current Internet and PC security technology, and the goal of a secure, all-electronic remote voting system, the FVAP has taken on an essentially impossible task. There really is no good way to build such a voting system without a radical change in overall architecture of the Internet and the PC, or some unforeseen security breakthrough. The SERVE project is thus too far ahead of its time, and should wait until there is a much improved security infrastructure to build upon.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2004 04:51 pm
I don't think most people are all to concerned about SERVE Walter. It's a test system and only used by the military.

It is interesting though that 11 independent experts reviewed the system and only 4 of the 11 see it as "unfixable".

The idea that a paper trail here could largely resolve the problems isn't really a workable solution in this case. A military member in Germany or Korea isn't going to fly to the Pentagon to pick up their paper receipt. A paper trail is do-able to a kiosk at a polling place. It isn't very feasable in a system designed around being able to vote from anywhere in the world.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Feb, 2004 05:53 am
Quote:
Two leading American experts on computer voting have warned that the forthcoming US presidential election could be more chaotic than the last.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3489877.stm
0 Replies
 
 

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