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electronic voting...potential for abuse

 
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2003 11:02 am
nimh - I was not arguing with her concerns, I was asking what might allay them.

And as to my question re: who operates the machines; if Diebold is responsible for their operation as you suggest, then my question is moot. But I assumed that county or precinct elections personnel (who would be of one party or another) would do that, as is the case with other, older voting systems.
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nimh
 
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Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2003 10:04 pm
I'm not suggesting, I'm quoting - you can read up on the link above.

And yes, that is a most unusual change in practice compared to "other, older voting systems" - thats why some of the posters here are so alarmed about it all.
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Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Dec, 2003 09:22 am
nimh wrote:
I'm not suggesting, I'm quoting - you can read up on the link above.

I tried to find the link you mean for me to consult among all the links in this discussion, and failed to do so. Embarrassed Can you point me to the specific link to which you are referring? Thanks! Cool
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nimh
 
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Reply Tue 9 Dec, 2003 11:07 am
Heh - OK, sorry 'bout that ... :embarassed:

PDiddie posted an article here that included the bit below.

Link to PD's post: http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=445769#445769

Quote:
It is still unclear exactly how results from these missing cards were tabulated, or if they were counted at all. And we will probably never know, for a highly disturbing reason. The vote count was not conducted by state elections officials, but by the private company that sold Georgia the voting machines in the first place, under a strict trade-secrecy contract that made it not only difficult but actually illegal -- on pain of stiff criminal penalties -- for the state to touch the equipment or examine the proprietary software to ensure the machines worked properly. There was not even a paper trail to follow up. The machines were fitted with thermal printing devices that could theoretically provide a written record of voters' choices, but these were not activated. Consequently, recounts were impossible. Had Diebold Inc, the manufacturer, been asked to review the votes, all it could have done was programme the computers to spit out the same data as before, flawed or not.

Astonishingly, these are the terms under which America's top three computer voting machine manufacturers - Diebold, Sequoia and Election Systems and Software (ES&S) - have sold their products to election officials around the country.


I was referring to this quote in shorthand, because I'd already quoted it again (but in the other thread, it turns out) - which is when we had that follow-up conversation about "paper trails" and having the computer print out records of each vote.

(Thats when you warned against any recount that involved the print-outs people had taken home after voting, and I pointed out that that's not what any of us were suggesting - we were talking about having the computer print out a record of each vote and keeping those records secure at the pollingstation, much like its been done with regular paper votes for the past century).

This time 'round, the quote's relevancy isn't so much because of the paper trail thing, but because of the simple (and rather incredible) fact of the "vote count not [being] conducted by state elections officials, but by the private company that sold Georgia the voting machines" - in an arrangement that actually makes it illegal for the county or precinct elections personnel to even "touch the equipment".

Now we have electronic voting here, too, and I've never been suspicious about it ... But a), the "back-up" print-out of a record of each vote sounds like a reasonable idea - you gotta have something to recount, and, exclamation-mark, exclamation-mark, exclamation-mark - who the hell comes up with the idea of delegating exclusive responsibility for reviewing, counting and tabulating the votes to a private company?!

Its not just us lefties that were baffled by that, Fishin', too, wrote: "Why the hell aren't government agencies contracting to have software written where the government owns all of the rights to the code? Why are these incompetent boobs allowing the systems makers to get away with selling them software without government employees reviewing and certifying the code?"

I mean - if you're going to delegate counting the votes to a private company - and that private company then turns out to be a major funder of one of the political parties, with its director blurting out stupidities about being "committed to helping Ohio to deliver its electoral votes to the president next year" - then you're not - helping, if you see what I mean.
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Scrat
 
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Reply Tue 9 Dec, 2003 01:05 pm
NIMH - Do we know that when the author refers to the "the private company that sold Georgia the voting machines in the first place" he means Diebold, the manufacturer, rather than a third party that sells the Diebold machines?

I only ask, because the language is imprecise. He probably means Diebold in both cases, but why refer to them in one place as the seller of the machines and later as the manufacturer if he means the same company?

Lastly, has anyone verified this with any other source?
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PDiddie
 
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Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2003 06:35 am
Martin Sheenwrites:

Quote:
The California Secretary of State has ordered that these new computerized voting machines print out a paper copy of your vote for your approval before the vote is registered. These printouts would then be saved in case the machines malfunction or there is any question as to whether or not they have been tampered with. Without them we would just have to trust the companies that make the machines --companies like Diebold, whose CEO, Walden W. O'Dell, recently wrote in a fundraising letter for the Republicans, "I am committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the President next year."

Without a paper trail, there is no way to reliably validate an election or conduct a reliable recount.

It's that simple.



If you buy a Slurpee at 7-11, they give you a receipt that confirms and registers your purchase.

Isn't our right to have our vote count worth at least as much as a Slurpee?
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blatham
 
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Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2003 06:52 am
I wonder if anyone in the White House has offered the CEO and board at 7-11 a trunk full of moola to, one month before the election, change their name to 9-11?
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Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2003 10:08 am
PDiddie wrote:
Martin Sheenwrites:

Quote:
The California Secretary of State has ordered that these new computerized voting machines print out a paper copy of your vote for your approval before the vote is registered. These printouts would then be saved in case the machines malfunction or there is any question as to whether or not they have been tampered with. Without them we would just have to trust the companies that make the machines --companies like Diebold, whose CEO, Walden W. O'Dell, recently wrote in a fundraising letter for the Republicans, "I am committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the President next year."

Without a paper trail, there is no way to reliably validate an election or conduct a reliable recount.

It's that simple.



If you buy a Slurpee at 7-11, they give you a receipt that confirms and registers your purchase.

Isn't our right to have our vote count worth at least as much as a Slurpee?

My earlier concern over printed "receipts" may have been a bit silly. My thinking was that I as the voter would have a receipt to take with me, and that some absurd attempt might be made to gather these back from voters to attempt to ascertain the result of a contested election. (This is of course, a silly thought. Even I see that now.) While there is no guarantee that a recount of paper receipts as described above could not be falsified, I see no good reason not to print the receipts and have them on hand just in case.
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gozmo
 
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Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2003 08:28 am
IMO the problem is not the method of voting but the integrity of the vote and the confidence of the electorate.

I suggest an essential step is the establishment of an electoral commission.

The commission should be responsible for the following:

The establishment of voting procedures which are generally accepted as fair and conducive to delivering accurate counts.


The conduct of elections of all elected officials at the Federal, State and Local levels.

The maintenance of accurate electoral rolls.

The education of voters in respect of electoral law and electoral procedure.

The maintenance of an Electoral Review Committee to deal with grievances, settle electoral disputes and investigate instances of electoral fraud.

I think it important that professionals with defined responsibilities are in place to engender confidence in any electoral process.


blatham please forgive me if I am too wide of the topic.
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fishin
 
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Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2003 08:52 am
gozmo - We already have a Commission that is chartered with dealing with all of those issues. It's called the Federal Election Commission.

Effectiveness is more the problem. Some of that is hindered by our Constitutional outline which leaves a large portion of the voting process up to the individual states. Our Federal government doesn't have the authority to assume complete centralized control over the entire process.
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gozmo
 
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Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2003 09:06 am
Thanks fishin'

I assumed incorrectly. I think it time for another amendment.
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blatham
 
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Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2003 09:11 am
gozmo

A tip...

Never ever give in to fishin. Your good graces will be rewarded with an empty larder and each of your sisters pregnant.
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fishin
 
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Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2003 09:15 am
blatham wrote:
gozmo

A tip...

Never ever give in to fishin. Your good graces will be rewarded with an empty larder and each of your sisters pregnant.


Feh! I don't even know his sisters! (Yet! Very Happy )
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fishin
 
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Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2003 09:16 am
gozmo wrote:
Thanks fishin'

I assumed incorrectly. I think it time for another amendment.


Your list is a good one. It's just complicated by our legal setup.
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blatham
 
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Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2003 09:25 am
addendum to gozmo

The positive on this matter, given fishin's political allegiances, is that your brothers will be safe.
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fishin
 
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Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2003 09:29 am
And based on your political allegiances should we assume that you prefer his brothers?

Tsk, tsk bernnie... You should know better than to rely on silly stereotypes. Wink
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gozmo
 
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Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2003 09:43 am
blatham,

LOL
He'll be busy. I have seven sisters.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2003 09:43 am
I am a charter ACLU member....thus the entire genera mammalia rests beneath my caring umbrella
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PDiddie
 
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Reply Fri 19 Dec, 2003 08:21 am
Quote:
At least five convicted felons secured management positions at a manufacturer of electronic voting machines, according to critics demanding more stringent background checks for people responsible for voting machine software.

Voter advocate Bev Harris alleged Tuesday that managers of a subsidiary of Diebold, one of the country's largest voting equipment vendors, included a cocaine trafficker, a man who conducted fraudulent stock transactions and a programmer jailed for falsifying computer records.

The programmer, Jeffrey Dean, wrote and maintained proprietary code used to count hundreds of thousands of votes as senior vice president of Global Election Systems, or GES. Diebold purchased GES in January 2002.

According to a public court document released before GES hired him, Dean served time in a Washington state correctional facility for stealing money and tampering with computer files in a scheme that "involved a high degree of sophistication and planning."


Con Job at Diebold Subsidiary

Now, the article linked above goes on to say that GES was acquired by Diebold, that most of the managers left after the acquisition, that Diebold shouldn't be held responsible for the background checks undone on employees of companies they acquire, etc. and that's a fair enough point.

Considering however, that we know Diebold's code was on an unsecured web page, and that Mr. Dean in all likelihood had great familiarity with it, and is a convicted white-collar felon to begin with...

Pardon for me for a moment; I'm going to rant.

What the hell is wrong with the media in this country!? Screw Saddam. Screw Michael Jackson and Scott Peterson and screw every other stinking story the press thinks we should give a flying sh*t about.

There should be no other story more important. None. Period.

Nothing cuts to the core of our democracy, any democracy, like voting. Voting is democracy! Why did we fight the British for independence? Why did we fight the Nazis? The communists? What the hell have we been shedding blood over if not to defend the right of a free people to choose their own Representative government!?!

Hello 60 Minutes? Hello 20/20? Hello Nightline? Hello New York Times? Hello Washington Post? Hello anyone??? Sure, we can all call Barbara Boxer's office and we can all call our local representative's office and we can all call our Senator but maybe it's time we start a full court press on the press!

Here's a plan. Go hereand print out any of the stories. Take a big black marker and hand-write WHY IS THIS NOT BEING COVERED? over it and mail it to every paper in your city. Start sending letters to editors. Send a letter to your favorite candidate's campaign.

Any media person reading this: This is your Pulitzer. GET BUSY.

(God, this story just pisses me off.)
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Dec, 2003 08:48 am
PD

LOL...some outbursts and passion and anger don't merely startle the nesting pidgeons, they can, sometimes, leave those folks who were about, with a quiet frame of mind and thinking "My god, the man's right".
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