Drugs

@Pangloss,

Pangloss;87704 wrote:

Those other impacts are the result of irresponsible decisions made by some drug users, and are of course not necessarily caused by any drug use.

We're talking about public health here. Sure, having a nuclear bomb in your house isn't necessarily a public risk either, but it's a sufficient risk that it's in the public interest to prevent it.

Pangloss;87704 wrote:

Hepatitis and HIV would be a problem with or without drugs being legal

You don't know, there is no way to know, what the public health impact of legalization would be.

Pangloss;87704 wrote:

there's no evidence to suggest that these things would get worse if drugs were legal, or that drug use would increase just because they are legal.

True. But I guess I've just seen too many people with absolutely destroyed lives to condone making it easier for people to get their hands on it.

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@Imnotrussian,

anybody have any idea what kind of drug would make me instantly fearless? paxil and zanax take time to work, i understand, maybe weeks. then i need to find out if it can be taken just before surgery to control phobia. obviously i cant take something that will affect my eyes or vital signs or cause me to be unresponsive to verbal stimuli, and i would check with the doctor first to make sure it is acceptable to them.

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@Imnotrussian,

Doctors will often prescribe an anxiolytic such as Valium or Ativan to help relieve short-term pre-surgery anxiety or fear. If you are having these problems long term, then usually an antidepressant is used. You should speak with your doctors about this and see if you can get something for anxiety.

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@Imnotrussian,

Imnotrussian;74857 wrote:

Drugs- Good or Bad?

Drugs are neither good nor bad; they are neutral.

It's how we use them that is either good or bad.

If drugs are used in moderation on an occasional basis for recreational purposes, there is nothing wrong with that.

The problem, however, is that most people use drugs to self-medicate as a means of dealing with stress or unwanted feelings. At this point, the use of the drug is no longer for recreation, but to suppress negative emotions. This is where it becomes problematic and can lead to addiction.

Addiction, however, is not a problem per se - it is the symptom of a problem, that being the addict's inability to manage their own lives without resorting to the drug to insulate them emotionally.

I'm a recovering pot addict; I've got three years sobriety from pot.

When I first started using pot, like most people, it was for fun. Over the course of 5 years, I began relying on pot to medicate my feelings and deal with stress. Eventually I got to the point where I was buying a quarter a week @ $125, smoking all of it, and going it again. Because of physical tolerance, I had smoke 3-4 bowls (and this was high-grade hydroponic stuff) just to get a mild buzz. If I wanted to get really baked, I had to smoke 5-7 bowls.

Eventually, I came to realize that I was addicted to pot and had to quit smoking it because I would do nothing else but sit around and get baked.

However, I don't blame the drug for my addiction -- it was my issues in life that I wasn't dealing with that led to my addiction.

I think that pot ought to be legalized in the US for a variety of reasons, but even so, I personally can't use it ever again. The addiction is seductive; not the drug itself.

-ITL-

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@Imnotrussian,

looking for a reality check...once again, any advice or information from those in the know will be greatly appreciated.

my questions are about the condition of the person I will try to describe:
30 years old single white male. probably uses everything except morphine-definitely regularly uses cocaine, heroin, mescaline, zanax, lsd, ecstasy, marijuana and beer, sometimes in combinations of as many as six substances in a period of 12 hours or less. possibly never more than two days go by without using something. spends some days awake 18 hours in each 24 hour period and sometimes periods of four and five days and nights in a row either awake the whole time or asleep the whole time. does not hallucinate except rarely. has been hospitalized twice in 2009, april and september, for overdose, probably had seizures, and kept in emergency and intensive care for less than 24 hours each time. does not pay bills until services are disconnected, has no insurance of any kind, has been out of work for over two years and is not looking, personal and environmental hygiene less than a priority. to pass the time watches movies about people doing drugs and behaving like fools, gangland type movies, vampire or other monster graphically bloody movies but usually doesnt see them due to falling asleep. rarely leaves his house except to go to the bank or whatever when absolutely necessary.

he does not have a problem with this lifestyle and says the only time he ever experienced happiness was while under the influence of something. ecstasy is his preferred. he is not only a user but a seller.

please tell me about this man and what do you see in his future. if there is anything else you need to know about him let me know.

thank you.

1 Reply

@Imnotrussian,

Salima, I'm no clinician, but my observation of friends and acquaintances (and some stories from my friend and college roommate who worked at a drug rehab facility) would require me to answer that someone using that much stuff that frequently is going to have GREAT difficulty recovering. He would almost surely fall back into the drug habit at some point. A full recovery would take years and years with many setbacks along the way. He would REALLY have to have the will to recover.

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@Imnotrussian,

I know I missed the boat on the whole legalization argument in this thread. However I wanted to add my two cents. There's be a whole lot of hypothetical discussion on what would happen if we were to decriminalize/legalize drugs. Many people said that it would be a dice roll. What most people don't realize is that there's an actual real life case study we can look at! In 2001 Portugal completely decriminalized personal use of every drug. OH NOES! PORTUGAL IS PROBABLY DROWNING INS DRUG ABUSES. Actually, on the contrary they're not... at all. I guess a little background is needed to fully understand what happened in Portugal before drugs were decriminalized. Prior to 2001, Portugal was the highest consumer of drugs in the EU across the board. After decriminalization, they dropped to the lowest consumer of drugs per capita in the EU. If you think I'm lying to you, check out this time article:

Drugs in Portugal: Did Decriminalization Work? - TIME

Quote:

Compared to the European Union and the U.S., Portugal's drug use numbers are impressive. Following decriminalization, Portugal had the lowest rate of lifetime marijuana use in people over 15 in the E.U.: 10%. The most comparable figure in America is in people over 12: 39.8%. Proportionally, more Americans have used cocaine than Portuguese have used marijuana.
The Cato paper reports that between 2001 and 2006 in Portugal, rates of lifetime use of any illegal drug among seventh through ninth graders fell from 14.1% to 10.6%; drug use in older teens also declined. Lifetime heroin use among 16-to-18-year-olds fell from 2.5% to 1.8% (although there was a slight increase in marijuana use in that age group). New HIV infections in drug users fell by 17% between 1999 and 2003, and deaths related to heroin and similar drugs were cut by more than half. In addition, the number of people on methadone and buprenorphine treatment for drug addiction rose to 14,877 from 6,040, after decriminalization, and money saved on enforcement allowed for increased funding of drug-free treatment as well.

It's the reflexive knee jerk reaction to drug law reform that are the cause of so many misguided and ultimately harmful drug policies in the US and in turn the world.

I can't believe that in a philosophy forum I would find so many people who have thrown critical thinking to the wind in favor of emotional reaction. It boggles my mind.

That being said, I guess I should provide full disclosure. I believe that drugs are an incredibly useful tool, when they're treated like a tool. For me at least, I feel like we lost the concept of that in the 60's and 70's when drug use for recreational purposes became popular. Prior to the 19th century, you don't see a lot of drug use for recreational purposes. Throughout the history of man, what you've seen is a system of drug use for religious purposes. There are some scholars that believe that the Amanita Muscaria (a type of disassociative mushroom not to be confused with "magic mushrooms") were actually used at the dawn of the homosapien, they have also been associated with Moses writing the book of Genesis, and it has been called the soma of the rig veda ( a book of religious texts that talk about a drug called soma that was used in religious rites). In addition to a religious tool, drugs can be used as a tool to spur creativity. I challenge you to make a list of your five favorite musicians. Take that list and do some research on the drug use of those artists. I can say with all confidence that there is a very good chance that most if not all have had drugs in their life in a major way. You may say, sure they did drugs... but they would have made that music anyway. I don't think most people who haven't tried drugs can understand the way drug use transforms the music listening experience. I can say with all confidence that without those drugs, those musicians would not have made the same quality of music. Period. This extends beyond music to all forms of art. To say that you think drugs shouldn't be used, and yet enjoy these forms of art influenced by them is pure hypocrisy. I think people underestimate the influence that drugs have had on our society today. I think the world would be a much different place without them.

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@Imnotrussian,

i dont know whether drugs should be legalized or not, that was never an interest of mine either in this thread or in life. i realize alcohol is also a substance that is widely abused and ruins lives and is legal and that those people dont have to face penalties for what they are doing other than the harm they have done to others when it crosses legal lines. this sets them apart from drug abusers and traffickers. what the reason is for this i am not sure and would question that point above any other in the issue.

i only personally know one musician who takes drugs-i have known him since birth, i lived with him most of the time. his talent was incredible-beginning from the age of 15, he was an innovative drummer, singer, songwriter, taught himself to play any instrument he wanted to hear and recorded his own songs playing every part. he is the person i described above.

i saw him this year, and he played some music he had written and arranged for me, about two hours' worth, saying about 70% of it had been written while he was high. i didnt have the heart to tell him, it was nothing but noise. i am not the kind of person who is prejudiced against any particular kind of music, i can objectively evaluate whether music is art or mechanically accurate without feeling or politically correct copies, etc. in his case, his talent is either warped or destroyed.

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@Imnotrussian,

That's great that you personally only know one musician who's done drugs. Chances are if you know more than one musician, you probably know more than one musician who uses drugs. Based on your reaction through this thread they probably didn't tell you because of your narrow minded view. R. U. Sirius writes in Everybody Must Get Stoned: Rock Stars on Drugs: "Trying to show a link between rock stars and drugs is like trying to make a link between mouths and tooth decay-too obvious to bother."

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@salima,

salima;137855 wrote:

looking for a reality check...once again, any advice or information from those in the know will be greatly appreciated.

my questions are about the condition of the person I will try to describe:
30 years old single white male. probably uses everything except morphine-definitely regularly uses cocaine, heroin, mescaline, zanax, lsd, ecstasy, marijuana and beer, sometimes in combinations of as many as six substances in a period of 12 hours or less. possibly never more than two days go by without using something. spends some days awake 18 hours in each 24 hour period and sometimes periods of four and five days and nights in a row either awake the whole time or asleep the whole time. does not hallucinate except rarely. has been hospitalized twice in 2009, april and september, for overdose, probably had seizures, and kept in emergency and intensive care for less than 24 hours each time. does not pay bills until services are disconnected, has no insurance of any kind, has been out of work for over two years and is not looking, personal and environmental hygiene less than a priority. to pass the time watches movies about people doing drugs and behaving like fools, gangland type movies, vampire or other monster graphically bloody movies but usually doesnt see them due to falling asleep. rarely leaves his house except to go to the bank or whatever when absolutely necessary.

he does not have a problem with this lifestyle and says the only time he ever experienced happiness was while under the influence of something. ecstasy is his preferred. he is not only a user but a seller.

please tell me about this man and what do you see in his future. if there is anything else you need to know about him let me know.

thank you.

I see absolutely NOTHING wrong with this man what-so-ever. He has the right as a person owing his own body what he does with his body. No one should be able to prevent him from doing what he wants with his body unless it directly causes harm to someone else. I don't mean indirectly nor emotional harm. I mean physical harm or an act that the person involved would not want done of themselves. So you could try to make the claim that him selling drugs is causing others harm. No, because any one who is wanting to purchase drugs, or to use drugs has openly invited any such harm as alright. So selling drugs is not harmful.

People get upset with me when I make these arguments, but if you change the context a little, they start to understand my point more.

Let's change your character type to a mountain climber. Let's get rid of all the drug stuff and instead change it all to his hobby and love of climbing. He dose all sorts of climbing, free climbing without ropes, he does soloing without guides or help. He does both rock and ice climbs. He doesn't wear a helmet or carry any safety gear when he climbs. People tell him all the time he has a death wish, but he tells them, he doesn't but they don't believe him. He just enjoys the climb more without all the safety gear.

Now do you have the right to take his hobby away from him because he runs the risk of causing harm or even death upon himself? What gives anyone the right to judge what he wants to do for his hobby? Just because you don't agree with his life style or what ever doesn't mean that it is wrong. It is his life, not yours to decide if it is worthy or wrong.

You can try to make the claim that a drug user isn't being productive to society and that is why it is bad. No that is absolute garbage reasoning because the climber also isn't contributing a thing to society either. So why is it the drug user is forbidden by the climber is acceptable? They are both identical in every way.

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@Imnotrussian,

hey krumple, i guess if you put it that way it sounds ok. even though he didnt look happy to me, that is only my impression. who knows what happy people look like.

i was actually asking something more along the lines of is he caught in addiction and unable to make any rational choices-i wasnt concerned with right and wrong, i think you know me better than that. but even then, one could argue the point that no one has free will anyway so what does it matter? his is just another experience in this world, no better or worse or more or less than yours or mine.

nothing to cry about really...thanks for your unemotional reply-it actually helps.

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@salima,

salima;138911 wrote:

hey krumple, i guess if you put it that way it sounds ok. even though he didnt look happy to me, that is only my impression. who knows what happy people look like.

He might not be happy. I don't use drugs, not even legal ones. I understand how they give a quick and easy solution for simple forms of happiness but at the price of health and social issues.

salima;138911 wrote:

i was actually asking something more along the lines of is he caught in addiction and unable to make any rational choices-i wasnt concerned with right and wrong, i think you know me better than that. but even then, one could argue the point that no one has free will anyway so what does it matter? his is just another experience in this world, no better or worse or more or less than yours or mine.

He might be caught up in an addiction he can't escape. The question is does he actually want out? I say that if we could find the ultimate source for endless contentment with the least cost of inflicting emotional or physical pain on another it would be the best solution for happiness. The problem is, it doesn't exist. So if you could provide for him something that will give him happiness without the use of drugs, by all means if it worked and made him happy, it is worth a shot at offering it to him. Until then he will find it difficult to not use drugs because he is cursed like the rest of us. We only want one thing in life, contentment. Our methods to get it differ but the goal is the same.

salima;138911 wrote:

nothing to cry about really...thanks for your unemotional reply-it actually helps.

Most people who become addicts don't start off as addicts. They generally are self medicating for a problem they can't find a solution for in any other means. If you understand what their problem is, and know a better solution then by all means that is what would be the best. If you can't think of anything that would help, then drugs are the best solution until then. That might sound harsh or not compassionate but it's how everyone works.

1 Reply

@Aedes,

Aedes;74879 wrote:

There is absolutely no evidence or even rationale that legalizing heroin would improve HIV transmission rates. People can get clean needles if they want. They're just too f*'d up on heroin. Lord knows I've taken care of probably hundreds if not thousands of heroin addicts in my career -- and it's not because it's illegal that they don't have their lives together...

---------- Post added 07-04-2009 at 09:43 PM ----------

I think that marijuana is an exceptional case because of its safety. All others need to be taken case by case. I do not think that PCP or LSD can be considered safe by any stretch. Mushrooms are not either, but they cannot be made illegal (as far as I know).

Let me start by saying for a philosophy there sure are a lot of assumptions and dogmatic viewpoints around.

Hmm ill just say that some people may be to ashamed to stand outside a church and get free needles ass you must know you cant buy them without a prescription. maybe if you did some research you would see that shooting up all together would be unnecessary if high quality over the counter drinking opium was available. shooting up is done because it takes less to get high. crime done to by drugs would be less if it was cheaper but unfortunately the third world countrys that opium grows in would have something to export.

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@Krumple,

no, it isnt harsh or uncompassionate...
i guess i just got scared from what i saw. when he first told me what was going on, starting to tell me a little at a time, i thought well if his brain chemistry isnt normal then probably what he is doing might do him good. he is the only one who knows the demons in his mind and whether or not life is easier to bear now than it was before.

no, he doesnt want out, not at all. and i havent a clue what else to offer him to make him happy-i dont have the answer to that for myself either. as a matter of fact, if it were possible for me i am sure i would have died of some overdose decades ago, i just happen to be one of those people that has the physiology that rejects all those substances-tobacco is the only one i can handle and it doesnt make me happy!

he doesnt drive. i do wish there werent guns in the house though...

as a moral issue, do you believe it is as ok to sell drugs as it is to take them? i would be curious to know your thoughts on that too...

Krumple;138914 wrote:

He might not be happy. I don't use drugs, not even legal ones. I understand how they give a quick and easy solution for simple forms of happiness but at the price of health and social issues.

He might be caught up in an addiction he can't escape. The question is does he actually want out? I say that if we could find the ultimate source for endless contentment with the least cost of inflicting emotional or physical pain on another it would be the best solution for happiness. The problem is, it doesn't exist. So if you could provide for him something that will give him happiness without the use of drugs, by all means if it worked and made him happy, it is worth a shot at offering it to him. Until then he will find it difficult to not use drugs because he is cursed like the rest of us. We only want one thing in life, contentment. Our methods to get it differ but the goal is the same.

Most people who become addicts don't start off as addicts. They generally are self medicating for a problem they can't find a solution for in any other means. If you understand what their problem is, and know a better solution then by all means that is what would be the best. If you can't think of anything that would help, then drugs are the best solution until then. That might sound harsh or not compassionate but it's how everyone works.

1 Reply

@salima,

salima;138911 wrote:

hey krumple, i guess if you put it that way it sounds ok. even though he didnt look happy to me, that is only my impression. who knows what happy people look like.

i was actually asking something more along the lines of is he caught in addiction and unable to make any rational choices-i wasnt concerned with right and wrong, i think you know me better than that. but even then, one could argue the point that no one has free will anyway so what does it matter? his is just another experience in this world, no better or worse or more or less than yours or mine.

nothing to cry about really...thanks for your unemotional reply-it actually helps.

Yea. If only there was a philosophical viewpoint in which the only thing that mattered was enjoying the present:D

EDIT:this quote came to mind.

"If we could sniff or swallow something that would, for five or six hours each day, abolish our solitude as individuals, atone us with our fellows in a glowing exaltation of affection and make life in all its aspects seem not only worth living, but divinely beautiful and significant, and if this heavenly, world-transfiguring drug were of such a kind that we could wake up next morning with a clear head and an undamaged constitution -- then, it seems to me, all our problems (and not merely the one small problem of discovering a novel pleasure) would be wholly solved and earth would become paradise."
Aldous Huxley

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@salima,

salima;138920 wrote:

as a moral issue, do you believe it is as ok to sell drugs as it is to take them? i would be curious to know your thoughts on that too...

I think everything should be legal. There are only three things I believe a person should have rights over. Their own life, their property and their freedom to do what ever they want with their life and property as long as it does not damage or harm someone else's life or property.

So if you want to use drugs it should be allowed. This doesn't mean that we abandon all the reasoning behind it. For example, cigarettes kill more people in the US than illegal drugs combined, yet cigarettes are legal and the harder drugs are not. Isn't that a little silly? It becomes even more absurd if you add in the death results of marijuana which is practically zero.

Do I agree with using drugs. No, I think there are better, healthier ways to find some kind of contentment in life, but it is not up to me or I shouldn't have the right to tell someone else they can't use drugs because of that.

I honestly believe if you made all drugs legal that people would be more that happy to find the help they need. The reason they don't is because they are afraid of prosecution or to get their friends or dealers in trouble if they seek help.

Some rehab centers were busted recently in the US for providing law enforcement data on information of their patients contacts. Like a person talking about a friend or a particular person who sold them drugs would be recorded and that information handed over to police. It is no wonder why many rehab centers find it difficult to treat people when they abuse the trust they place on these centers.

Why would you want to go for help to only find out that what you were talking about was going to be used against you or to indite your friends in criminal activities?

Sorry went off on a tangent there. Long explanation short, I think all drugs should be legal. Is that morally the right thing to do? Well if you feel drugs are bad, just don't do them then. But it is morally wrong to tell others they can't use drugs because you think they are bad.

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