Drugs

@PoeticVisionary,

PoeticVisionary;84502 wrote:

I just want to start out by saying I think medical cannabis is a good thing for those who truly need.
I go to therapy and other meetings (mostly one on one). I have a sign on me that says- "Warning does not play well with others !"
Now all joking aside I used the drugs mentioned and then some. Then I was diagnosed BPI-rapid cycling/mixed states-PTSD. I came to find out that I was self-medicating and that my problem was being exacerbated by the drug use. Now this is just my story and I know everyone has a different one. But "sometimes" drug use is hiding a deeper issue.

yeah, i have just been reading things about that. it is hard to tell sometimes which is primary. and drug abuse can also mimic symptoms of mental disorders.

there were always clear signs of his mental makeup being what is perceived as being outside of normal range. but nothing was diagnosed in childhood that was helpful. in other words, adhd and cognitive difficulties, temper out of control, but no mental disorders other than that. either way i dont see him going to seek help.

my brother recovered by going to AA, and that was almost ten years ago now. he is very active in helping others. but he has no advice for me other than aa is good-but only for those who are truly and actively seeking help.

1 Reply

@salima,

Salima, If I may interject, I suggest giving your friend some material on self science and semi-spiritual ideas on conscious relaxing methods. That said, you mentioned that he is a Heroin addict and Into Psychotropics? Is he more of a party user, such as taking his drugs intensely over period of days and then crashing? or is it more of a Everyday Need, constant Habit? Sounds like a silly question, but the difference in the two, is important with understanding the layers of his dependence.

hope all is well for now.

1 Reply

@Joe,

Joe;84608 wrote:

Salima, If I may interject, I suggest giving your friend some material on self science and semi-spiritual ideas on conscious relaxing methods. That said, you mentioned that he is a Heroin addict and Into Psychotropics? Is he more of a party user, such as taking his drugs intensely over period of days and then crashing? or is it more of a Everyday Need, constant Habit? Sounds like a silly question, but the difference in the two, is important with understanding the layers of his dependence.

hope all is well for now.

thanks joe-that is what i was wondering about, what things can i determine that are of importance. he is in america and i wont be there until february but maybe i can find out if there is still time. i was there for five weeks in may of 2008 and didnt see anything but mj and moderate levels of beer. i mean i lived with him, he is my son. but i saw signs of his not paying bills-not even opening them- which he hadnt done before, he has been out of work for almost two years.

he seemed to me to be experimenting as a matter of curiosity and looking for something. i would make a guess that it is not an every day thing, but something he feels he is doing as entertainment? is it possible that isnt an addiction? but now within the last few months i find he doesnt make sense any more. i dont know if he is high when he calls me-sometimes i call him and i can tell he is on something-but i thought it was booze, his talk is slurred etc.

he told me he has been into stuff since he was a kid but i never saw it as anything other than occasional use. now it is definitely more-ugh. i can pm you some more details that may give you information that will be enough for you to tell me more about what condition he might be in. i really think he may be gone before i get there.

over the years i had tried to get him into various spiritual things, tried to interest him in methods and traditions that i am into that relate to his D&D stuff to get his attention. over the years i have shared with him a lot of methods, i even left things there before i moved out on anger management, gurdjieff fourth way stuff, etc. but he never took to any of it. we talk about it, he asks me what i am into and is interested, but so far none of it has appealed to him.

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@Imnotrussian,

Imnotrussian;74878 wrote:

Im speaking from a biased view here but i believe that certain "harmful" drugs like heroin should be illegalised and that rehabilitation is mandetory, i know i sound hypocritical and that the effects of individual drugs would be held in higher esteem for other users but from an experienced POV some drug use is less harmful than the media and governments interpret.

Legalising heroin would be beneficial because not only does it take the control out of dealers/criminals but many people die due to bad heroin or it's too strong, at least it would be controlled if legal. Many people have lost their children in this way and also dealers always abuse their power, I've heard of girls going threw hell to get their gear. I ask why not legalise heroin?

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@Imnotrussian,

Legalizing "Heroin" is a mere formality, it is for the most part already legalized, i.e.- morphine sulfate, hydromorphone(dilaudid), hydrocodone, fentanyl...these are pretty much legalized heroin and in some doses stronger then it and just as addictive. It doesn't matter if it is legalized anyway, abusers will still be abusers.

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@Imnotrussian,

My point wasn't "users will still be users", in that i'm trying to prevent people using, my point is to make it alot more safer for people, for instance, Amsterdam have injecting booths for various reasons but mainly so if they go over they will get immediate medical attention and avoid death. The drugs you mention P.V. are only available on prescription and therefore not as available if not at all to people.
Thanks

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@Imnotrussian,

Caroline here in America it is so much easier to get prescription drugs then to get heroin, it's a joke. Also I stated that "abusers will still be abusers", not users will be users, completely different category. What I also find interesting is the contradiction in your post. Making it so medical attention is readily available is not a preventative, for an abuser it would be an incentive.

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@Imnotrussian,

I use the word user instead of abuser because I was trained to, because it has negative implications for someone whose trying to get off drugs, just like saying someone who is HIV positive has AIDS, it is not a different category and I'm a trained drugs worker too. Providing injecting booths is not an incentive, people don't chose to use drugs because there are safer methods available, this is ignorance. Also the only reason prescription drugs are available on the streets is because people trade their morphine, methadone etc, for heroin. I know many people who have lost their lives which could've been prevented if they were using a booth and many families are destroyed, there are at least three drug overdoses a week in my county resulting in death and death from bad heroin. It is a very dangerous drug and it needs to be monitered and controlled because of this.
Thank you

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@Imnotrussian,

reason number three to avoid amsterdam...i cant believe this...

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@Imnotrussian,

salima do you think people use drugs because there are safer methods available? If so then why do they use drugs when there aren't safer methods at hand. Every person that I have met who have used drugs is because they've suffered sexual abuse when they were a child, violence in the family or have been made homeless. This is the type of attitude that prevent safer methods becoming available and all it does is aid in the destruction/death of the very people we are trying to help. I have never met any user who is stupid enough to start using because there are clean needles available for instance. You'd be alot safer in Amsterdam, there are no dirty needles on the streets for your kids to pick up and if they do get the booths in it will saves kids lives. Tell me, why do you think people use drugs?

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@Imnotrussian,

there are many more reasons i can think of than what you have mentioned. i can tell you that my son never suffered sexual abuse, there was no violence in our family (other than his) and he has never been homeless. i think as a social worker you are exposed to only a certain segment of the population and there are many more different types of drug users than you were trained to deal with.

so if everyone is given heroine and clean needles there will be less deaths from contracting aids? maybe. but i would calculate that there will be many more deaths from shooting heroin by inviting people to use it safely.

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@Imnotrussian,

People chose to use heroin whether clean needles are available or not, stats showed a rise in HIV, (not AIDS), amongst IV users. Sorry I should have phrased what I said as - that most people who succumb to drug using have suffered a traumatic experience in their life and for those who use who have had nothing like this happen to them, I will say again, have never in my life met anyone who is stupid enough to use because safer methods are available and I can't imagine I ever will. I'm not a social worker i'm a drugs worker, (huge difference), given that I work with drug users I would've thought Salima that is a good representation of the drug population. Fact is, people use drugs no matter what is available, that is why safer methods were introduced, there is no evidence to even suggest people use because clean needles are available. It is precisely this attitude and ignorance that does much to destroy the help badly needed for vulnerable people who are self-medicating for whatever reasons, (and I can tell ya, it isn't because we are trying to maker it safer for them).

---------- Post added 08-21-2009 at 12:27 PM ----------

Ok, I saw distraught parents after their child overdosed on heroin, I think they'd agree that if someone had been there to watch him then he'd be alive today. That is why it is a good idea. The user was using anyway.

---------- Post added 08-21-2009 at 12:36 PM ----------

salima;84722 wrote:

i think as a social worker you are exposed to only a certain segment of the population and there are many more different types of drug users than you were trained to deal with.

What other drug users am I not trained to help and am not exposed to?

---------- Post added 08-21-2009 at 12:37 PM ----------

salima;84722 wrote:

so if everyone is given heroine and clean needles there will be less deaths from contracting aids? maybe. but i would calculate that there will be many more deaths from shooting heroin by inviting people to use it safely.

I'd say your calculations are wrong and inaccurate unless you have the proof to suggest otherwise?

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@Imnotrussian,

Why do people do drugs ?? The reasons you mentioned Caroline are definite examples of why people use drugs. How you managed to meet only that exclusive group of "users" is amazing in itself. However they are not the only reasons people use drugs.
There are some who start out as recreational users(yes just because they want to see how it feels). This category alone can be broken down further. There are atists who want to try and expand their consciousness. (99% of these people have not been molested, beaten or homeless) This is just a microcosm of the various reasons people decide to use drugs. Also it is documented fact that there is a difference between - user and abuser. For example have you ever heard of AA ? You don't go there and say - " Hi my name is "such & such" and sometimes I drink too much. No! You go there and say " I am an alcoholic !" Sometimes curiousity is all it takes to get hooked.

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@Imnotrussian,

I'm not saying people don't abuse drugs, what I'm saying is to a person who's desperately trying to get off drugs it doesn't help being called a drug abuser, that is what I was trained, think about it. I've worked with all types of people across the board because when a person seeks help they go to an agency where I've worked, so we meet alcoholics, who have failed at AA, I'm not sure what you mean by exclusive group of users, they come from everywhere and from all types of backgrounds. Again I stress I'm not talking about prevention but harm minimisation. Yes sometimes curiosity is all it takes to get hooked but only sometimes, besides no matter the reasons, what I'm trying to say that introducing harm minimisation does not encourage people to use. I have never read, met nor heard of anyone doing this. Have you or Salima?

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@Imnotrussian,

OK. I understand what you mean by the minimizing harm. But making heroin legal at least here in the states would not help. (I cannot say where I work for legal reasons)
From what I've seen it could be catastrophic. You cannot overcome a problem until you admit you have a problem. Now on a personal opinion, the imprisoning of people for marijuana is ridiculous. Recently here in America they have released murderers to make room for drug offenders. Now that's complete lunacy. I am not a prohibitionist, however heroin and crystal meth should never be legalized.

1 Reply

@PoeticVisionary,

PoeticVisionary;84748 wrote:

OK. I understand what you mean by the minimizing harm. But making heroin legal at least here in the states would not help..

Why?

PoeticVisionary;84748 wrote:

You cannot overcome a problem until you admit you have a problem.

Yes.

PoeticVisionary;84748 wrote:

.. on a personal opinion, the imprisoning of people for marijuana is ridiculous. Recently here in America they have released murderers to make room for drug offenders. Now that's complete lunacy.

Yes.

PoeticVisionary;84748 wrote:

I am not a prohibitionist, however heroin and crystal meth should never be legalized.

Why?

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@Imnotrussian,

Here are some reasons why crystal meth should not be made legal.

What Are the Effects of Methamphetamine Use?
This is a list of effects associated with pure methamphetamine use. Because of how it's made, crystal meth is never pure, so the dangers associated with taking the street drug extend beyond these effects.
Common Immediate Effects

Euphoria
Increased energy and alertness
Diarrhea and nausea
Excessive sweating
Loss of appetite, insomnia, tremors, jaw-clenching
Agitation, irritability, talkativeness, panic, compulsive fascination with repetitive tasks, violence, confusion
Increased libido
Increased blood pressure, body temperature, heart rate, blood sugar levels, bronchodilation
Constriction of the walls of the arterties
In pregnant and nursing women, methampetamine crosses the placenta and is secreted in breast milk

Effects Associated with Chronic Use

Tolerance (needing more of the drug to get the same effect)
Drug craving
Temporary weight loss
Withdrawal symptoms including depression and anhedonia
"Meth Mouth" where teeth rapidly decay and fall out
Drug-related psychosis (may last for months or years after drug use is discontinued)

Effects of Overdose

Brain damage
Sensation of flesh crawling (formication)
Paranoia, hallucinations, delusions, tension headache
Muscle breakdown (rhabdomyolysis) which can lead to kidney damage or failure
Death due to stroke, cardiac arrest or elevated body temperature (hyperthermia)

Caroline have you ever gone on a 911 call and have to subdue a few individuals on crystal meth ? Let's say 5 strung out males all between 6' and 6' 2" age range 21-26 in relative good shape. But not to able to use deadly force or stun guns for fear of one of them having a heart attack, then their family can sue you and everyone involved. I think not. Heroin and crystal meth Should never be legalized !

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@Imnotrussian,

Please do not read the following if you are easily offended.
All you've stated are the effects of of drugs which I'm fully aware of, believe me I wish/prefer it if people didn't take drugs in the first place but the fact is they do. I've seen this picture where a man peeled his own skin of his face including his lips and parts of his ears and fed it to his dogs whilst high on crystal meth.
I'm sorry but all you've stated is the that drugs shouldn't be legalised because of the very dangerous and very destructive nature of them on an individual, which I think is why they should be controlled because people are taking drugs anyway, you know that.

---------- Post added 08-21-2009 at 04:26 PM ----------

Perhaps PoeticVisionary, if those guys had been monitered and in a controlled enviroment then you would not be at risk of being sued nor have to use restraint. These guys were taking it anyway.

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@Imnotrussian,

Caroline do you live in a bubble ? You have seen pictures of those things, whilst I've seen it done and worse, then had to clean it up. There are always going to be people who do not want help and will not stay in a confined area and want to live on the fringe of society.(Let's not start on society.LOL)
Let's just agree to agree and disagree.

P.S. If there were a perfect solution we would not be having this discussion.

1 Reply

@PoeticVisionary,

PoeticVisionary;84826 wrote:

Caroline do you live in a bubble ?

I don't.

PoeticVisionary;84826 wrote:

You have seen pictures of those things, whilst I've seen it done and worse, then had to clean it up..

I've seen peoples lives destroyed permanently, I've seen physical handicaps, girls telling me that who are on the game, (to support their habit), getting violently raped. Dealers beating and stripping girls down to their underwear in front of people because they cannot pay their drugs bill.

PoeticVisionary;84826 wrote:

There are always going to be people who do not want help and will not stay in a confined area.

There is? What do you mean help, I'm not talking about help getting off drugs in this thread, I'm talking about offering safer methods of drug use and your telling me it will encourage people to use drugs. And how do you know exactly that people will not stay in a controlled area, tried it? You only have to give them stuff to do surely, besides how do you know unless it is tried?

PoeticVisionary;84826 wrote:

and want to live on the fringe of society.

I cannot see people wanting to be poor.

PoeticVisionary;84826 wrote:

There is
Let's just agree to agree and disagree

I understand.
Oh and by the way, us drug workers mop up all the mess too, thanks, and it's bloody hard work I can tell you and stressful, very stressful and risky too.

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