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Capitalism Will Bring World Peace

 
 
BrightNoon
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Oct, 2009 12:28 am
@Mr Fight the Power,
Without jumping entirely into the fray, I'd like to stand on the sidelines and yell rather loudly, "What we have now in the U.S. is nothing remotely like free market capialism (it's fascism actually), so failures in the American system ought not be represented as failures of free market capitalism." Keep that in mind gents.
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Oct, 2009 12:36 am
@BrightNoon,
BrightNoon;95009 wrote:
Without jumping entirely into the fray, I'd like to stand on the sidelines and yell rather loudly, "What we have now in the U.S. is nothing remotely like free market capitalism (it's fascism actually), so failures in the American system ought not be represented as failures of free market capitalism." Keep that in mind gents.


I agree. It could however be said that the American system is capitalist, as defined by the private ownership of the means of production. Just playing the devils advocate. :sarcastic:

BrightNoon, do you remember how we debated the end of the western world with the financial system in that thread of mine a few months ago?
How do you feel about that lately? Any new opinions?
BrightNoon
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Oct, 2009 06:07 pm
@EmperorNero,
I think that recent developments pretty well validate our thesis; i.e. that the dollar is going to be replaced as the world reserve currency, and that as a consequence the global hegemony of the U.S. will wane. Today on Drudge, and briefly on CNBC, there was a report that the Arab states have been negotiating with China, Russia and France to replace the dollar as the medium of exchange for the oil trade; and this at the same time that we hear Russia has just surpassed Saudi Arabia as the largest oil producer in the world. Power is shifting away from the west.

In terms of monetary policy itself, there's been suprising demand for US government debt. No treasury auction has failed, or even come close; the last auction had 3 bidders for every bond. This seems odd? Yes. Most of the demand comes from foreign 'indirect bidders,' which are assumed to be central banks; nothing strange here, nations with budget surpluses tend to invest in the dollar (hence its the reserve currency of the world). But which nations have acquired the most treasuries in recent months? Britain and Japan. Hold on a minute...both of those natons have massive budget deficits. Britain is especially laughable; it's debts are far higher per capita or relative GDP than ours in the U.S. How on earth did these nations buy treasuries: with what money?

It appears that these nations have been selling agency debt (e.g. Fannie and Freddie) acquired over the last decade, which they keep in special accounts with the Fed in the U.S, and then using the money to buy treasuries. Alright, sounds fair enough, but who do they sell the agency bonds to? The Fed! And where does the Fed get the money? You guessed it...the printing press. In other words, the Fed is indirectly monitizing most of the new debt issued by the U.S. government. And, don't forget, the Fed has openly been buying up to $300 billion in treasuries this year. My assumption is that something similiar is happening at the Bank of Japan and the Bank of England; i.e. the major western central banks are each printing money and using it to buy each other's debt covertly. It's really very clever. In the past, they woould have just monetized their own debt, but that leads to fear of inflation. Now, they can make it appear that there's real foreign demand for their respective currencies by buying each other;s debt secretly, so they don't stoke inflation fears. Eventually, this arrangement will collapse though, when the debt being amassed becomes impossible to service.

Also, gold and silver have continued to move upwards in light of a weakening dollar. Mahor news from China has also helped; China has for the first time allowed its citizens to buy gold and silver bullion for investment, and also has hinted (threatened) that it may default on its gold derivatives obligations to western banks. These moves betray an increasingly nervious China, unwilling to sit back and watch a decade of savings vanish into thin air through inflation. They are literally buying anything and everything (food, coal, iron ore, copper, gold, oil, etc.) with their spare dollars. If this dynamic doesn't change, and if the U.S. government doesn't get its fiscal house in order, I can't see any other possibility but that China will soon depeg its currency from the dollar and make a decisive move toward replacing the American consumer with the domestic Chinese consumer. Of course, their stimulus package (much larger as a percent of GDP than ours) was aimed at stimulating domestic consumption in anticipation of just such a move.

I was watching Niel Ferguson in a debate with some other intellectual (forget his name at the moment). He's the man who coined the term 'Chimerica,' in reference to the (supposedly) mutually benificial, symbiotic relationship between Chinese manufacturing and savings on the one hand, and U.S. consumption and debt on the other. He now (as of when this video was made a few months ago actually) has changed his tune and thinks that not only is Chimerica no longer advantageous for the Chinese, and that its breaking down, but that the souring of Sino-American relations might lead to trade wars, and possibly war itself. He sees a growing similiarity between the situation in Europe before the First World War and that now in the Pacific. Germany was a rising power, which was set to quickly overtake Great Britain in manufacturing, and which was threatening her traditional naval superiority. China is on the same ascending economic path, and it too is developing a naval capacity that will eventually be able to neutralize any American superiority (there ate alot of people who believe that the U.S. nuclear carrier force is already obsolete in the face of modern anti-ship ballistic missiles, such as China has purchased from Russia).

Cheerful, eh? :whistling:

Well, my prediction is that we will continue to see a gradual decline of the west, esp. the U.S., until at some point we reach a tipping point and see a real conflict, probably over Iran, which is now firmly supported by China and Russia.
0 Replies
 
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Oct, 2009 05:33 pm
@EmperorNero,
Thanks, very enlightening. As always.
I wonder, what news source do you like? I can't really decide on a good one.

So we're facing world war III, eh?
I think when the Dollar gets into financial trouble the US will have a hard time supplying it's nuclear carrier force.
Did you know that in it's 1972 war the Israelis lost American supplied aircraft faster than the United States could produce them in American factories.
A small war in Israel was overstraining the American defense industry.
It only shows how quickly this military can be overstrained if it actually starts losing material.

I thought that the US debt is especially bad since it could print Dollars without direct inflation as the reserve currency.
But it seems European nations are even worse off.
I mean, we are speaking about two things here. Oil peak and the Dollar trouble.
And I predict that one might trigger the other in an ultimate crash.
And that some western nations might resort to a form of authoritarian collectivism.
Then again I might be paranoid, since no prominent experts seem to predict any of this. And it's usually the most cataclysmic prediction that gets those people on TV.
BrightNoon
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Oct, 2009 01:34 am
@EmperorNero,
I use alot of news sources. Drudge, Chris Martenson, sometimes Mish, Bloomberg, Reuters, Asia Times, Al Jazeera (English), Russia Today, CNBC

I scan the forum at kitco.com alot just to see what's the latest news or rumor, which I might then look into at the above mentioned sources.

Id didn't know that about the Israeli war. The U.S. military-industrial complex, for all it's swagger, is certainly not capable of producing the sheer quantity or materiel needed to fight a real war against another superpower. Before WWII it wasn't either, but there was a huge civilian manufacturing base that could be converted. Now that's obviously not the case. But anyway I'm not really expecting a world war, more like a cold war with many 'small' proxy wars or wars on the peripheries.

Peak oil and dollar are very much connected if for no other reason than that the dollar's preeminent status rests mostly on the fact that oil is priced around the world in dollars. Oddly, if the dollar loses that status, peak might be delayed a little bit, as the largest single consumer of oil would be priced out of the market. Of course, that won't help us at all...prices will seem like peak arrived.

Oh, almost forgot. The news about China, France, Iran, the Arabs and Russia planning to stop pricing their oil trade in dollars has now been pretty well substantiated. It's all over the mainstream press and doesn't appear to be a rumor anymore. Furthermore, there's news that Germany is starting to make noise about getting its gold back the U.S., like De Gaulle did in the 60's. The two events are probably connected.

YouTube - Max Keiser: Dollar to be buried way before 2018
(RT)

YouTube - Robert Fisk reveals truth behind 'dollar demise' report
(RT)

YouTube - Robert Fisk on the Gulf 'ditching the dollar' in oil trade
(Al Jazeera)
William
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Oct, 2009 05:03 am
@EmperorNero,
We live in one world. For us to end war and get along we need one economic system all can use that will not involve interest or based on anything rare. It must be abundant and controlled based on the resources we have to share throughout the entire world. We all live here and we need to create a balance of those resources; all of them or this world will never achieve peace. Considering all the weapons we have to destroy each other with, we must all sit down at the table and work this out.

I don't have all the answers, but collectively, we do.

We have more than enough land to accommodate all the people here. Right now it is top heavy and on the verge of toppling over economically for there are too many people at the bottom starving to death. Once we establish an economic system that will allow us all to do what we 'need' to do rather than what we can afford to do, will we begin to achieve the balance we need. There is "no" other solution.

William
0 Replies
 
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Oct, 2009 10:26 am
@BrightNoon,
BrightNoon;96176 wrote:
I use alot of news sources. Drudge, Chris Martenson, sometimes Mish, Bloomberg, Reuters, Asia Times, Al Jazeera (English), Russia Today, CNBC

I scan the forum at kitco.com alot just to see what's the latest news or rumor, which I might then look into at the above mentioned sources.

Id didn't know that about the Israeli war. The U.S. military-industrial complex, for all it's swagger, is certainly not capable of producing the sheer quantity or materiel needed to fight a real war against another superpower. Before WWII it wasn't either, but there was a huge civilian manufacturing base that could be converted. Now that's obviously not the case. But anyway I'm not really expecting a world war, more like a cold war with many 'small' proxy wars or wars on the peripheries.

Peak oil and dollar are very much connected if for no other reason than that the dollar's preeminent status rests mostly on the fact that oil is priced around the world in dollars. Oddly, if the dollar loses that status, peak might be delayed a little bit, as the largest single consumer of oil would be priced out of the market. Of course, that won't help us at all...prices will seem like peak arrived.

Oh, almost forgot. The news about China, France, Iran, the Arabs and Russia planning to stop pricing their oil trade in dollars has now been pretty well substantiated. It's all over the mainstream press and doesn't appear to be a rumor anymore. Furthermore, there's news that Germany is starting to make noise about getting its gold back the U.S., like De Gaulle did in the 60's. The two events are probably connected.


Boy, what is this news going to do to the Dollar price...
Though it's kind of nice to know as a citizen that such information isn't kept secret.

I guess the Europeans want to run their own currency ponzi scheme until that blows up.
What I worry about is losing the US as a world police. Those videos make it seem like the US is using that money to just go around the world, starting wars and being imperialist. But it's knowing that the US would come to aid that allows most western nations not to have any military.
I always sort of viewed it as outsourcing; The US gets to have the ponzi reserve currency and in return they protect the softer nations with it's military. Evil dictators are not kept in check by noble ideas.

What's your prediction of the near future of Europe? Will they have economic problems? Or will they thrive off the reserve currency change? How about wars or unrest?

I always feel guilty for not really having anything in response to you, while I have so many questions.

A side note, but I don't get why it is so hard to use other currencies than the Dollar.
"Hey, I'm gonna give you 50 Euros for that."
"Okay."

Wow! That leftie in the first video even thinks that the last crisis was engineered in order to get bankers taxpayer money.
If they even think that...
BrightNoon
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Oct, 2009 12:56 pm
@EmperorNero,
EmperorNero;96268 wrote:
Boy, what is this news going to do to the Dollar price...


Nothing good

Quote:
What I worry about is losing the US as a world police. Those videos make it seem like the US is using that money to just go around the world, starting wars and being imperialist. But it's knowing that the US would come to aid that allows most western nations not to have any military. I always sort of viewed it as outsourcing; The US gets to have the ponzi reserve currency and in return they protect the softer nations with it's military. Evil dictators are not kept in check by noble ideas.


There is definately a quid pro quo between the U.S. and its close allies. However, the U.S. does not use its imperial might for such holistic or communal purposes. Honestly, other than the quest to secure access to oil, I think most of our wars and operations (e.g. funding rebels in S. america) have been undertaken purely for the sake of 1) profit for the military-industrial complex, 2) profit for the banks (including the Federal Reserve, which finances the wars), and 3) manipulation of the American people for political purposes. We have employed as many 'evil dictators' as we've fought, more in fact.

The CIA overthrew the democratically elected government of Iran and replaced it with the totalitarian, brutal rule of the Shah.

We supported Sadam Hussein lavishly in the 80s. We knew he had certain weapons of mass destruction, like nerve gas, because we sold it to him!

We trained the dictator Noriega in the School of the Americas in Florida, put him in power in Panama, and then when he started conducting policy against the wishes of Washington, we invaded the replaced him.

Guatemala, Honduras, Ecuador, Peru, on and on.

My point isn't that the U.S. is horrible, just that the people in contorl of the U.S. like to justify their predations to the American people by making various hypocritical moral arguments.

Quote:
What's your prediction of the near future of Europe? Will they have economic problems? Or will they thrive off the reserve currency change? How about wars or unrest?

I always feel guilty for not really having anything in response to you, while I have so many questions.

A side note, but I don't get why it is so hard to use other currencies than the Dollar.
"Hey, I'm gonna give you 50 Euros for that."
"Okay."

Wow! That leftie in the first video even thinks that the last crisis was engineered in order to get bankers taxpayer money.
If they even think that...


I don't know a lot about the EU really. The euro isn't being used as extensively as the dollar simply because there aren't as many euros. These days, there's a ton more money flowing around in the 'shadow banking system' than ever is actually used to buy real goods and services. Only the dollar market is 'deep' enough to satisfy the daily need to borrow and lend trillions across the world. There are growing tensions between the sound European nations (esp. Germany) and the rest, of which the southern and eastern are the worst. I think its unclear what might happen; the crisis either leads to greater unity out of neccessity, or it leads ot dissolution. I seriously doubt that any kind of conflict could arise in europe though, except maybe some more balkan guerilla sort of war, but that's nothing new as we all know.
0 Replies
 
Sorryel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Oct, 2009 01:54 pm
@EmperorNero,
EmperorNero;95654 wrote:
Thanks, very enlightening. As always.
I wonder, what news source do you like? I can't really decide on a good one.

So we're facing world war III, eh?
I think when the Dollar gets into financial trouble the US will have a hard time supplying it's nuclear carrier force.
Did you know that in it's 1972 war the Israelis lost American supplied aircraft faster than the United States could produce them in American factories.
A small war in Israel was overstraining the American defense industry.
It only shows how quickly this military can be overstrained if it actually starts losing material.

I thought that the US debt is especially bad since it could print Dollars without direct inflation as the reserve currency.
But it seems European nations are even worse off.
I mean, we are speaking about two things here. Oil peak and the Dollar trouble.
And I predict that one might trigger the other in an ultimate crash.
And that some western nations might resort to a form of authoritarian collectivism.
Then again I might be paranoid, since no prominent experts seem to predict any of this. And it's usually the most cataclysmic prediction that gets those people on TV.


I think Niall Ferguson was traumatized by writing that horrifying book on the the 20th century. He admits in the intro that he hadn't really looked at what happened to China in the 20th century until he started writing War of the World in about 2002.
Moreover, as I recall his analysis of why the Central Powers had no military choice but to have a war before their credit dried up...that was a matter of fiancing mass armies -- which no economic system on the planet seems to be capable of these days (as you and/or Bright noon correctly point out). So:

a) Niall needs to take a breather on the China front and get some perspective. He's a brilliant guy, but I think he doesn't understand China as well as he does the West.
b) No major wars appear likely (for the good economic reasons you and Brightnoon have pointed out)
c) The Israelis lost about 30 planes in one day in Oct 1973, which I'm sure was greater than the peacetime US production of semi-obsolete planes like skyhawks, but its not the potential for massive loses that makes WWIII unlikely, its the problem of keeping a force in being that is large enough to be worth the expense given that nobody else is going to be trying to mobilize vast armies. It's rather like the problem the US has right now: you have the most powerful military on the planet, but that doesn't get you anything but the trouble of trying to blast primitive parts of the world from the Iron Age into the Stone Age. Pretty much a waste of time and money.
d) I doubt any experts are going to predict a world-wide financial crash since the world economy is very different now than it was in the 1930s. There might be a crash, but it doesn't seem predictable on the basis of how economies have worked up til now.
BrightNoon
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Oct, 2009 02:26 pm
@Sorryel,
People not in the establishment have clearly predicted what has happened already, and what is IMO coming down the road. Peter Schiff for example. See the video 'Peter Schiff Was Right' on youtube for proof of that claim. What in general is going to happen is fairly predictable - how exactly this plays out, not at all. We operate in a competely manipulated and directed economic system, so unless we know the plans of the people doing the directing, there's no way of predicting details.
0 Replies
 
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Oct, 2009 07:08 pm
@EmperorNero,
BrightNoon,
I want to ask you a favor.
Read this and then tell me if you think we might all soon starve.

Eating Fossil Fuels
pagan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Oct, 2009 09:43 am
@EmperorNero,
hi guys

first off i would like to say that until the last year or so i thought that capitalist democracy was without doubt the best political/economic system. I am not right wing, far from it. I used to call myself a socialist in the 70's and 80's and listened to the likes of scargill, foot, healey, kinnock la la la and went on loads of anti racism, -nuclear, -thatcher marches etc. Looking back how naive i was to believe in those jerks. I then gave up on democracy because i felt that it is quite obviously a daft system re expertise. eg would you put it to the vote on how to build a suspension bridge? Not unless people voted for their favourite bona fide architect. But what if there was no way of testing if someone knew how to build a bridge? ie selecting the candidates. Well thats how i saw capitalist democracy in the political sector. Any twerp could put themselves forward and according to what party they represented and how charismatic they were and how good at telling lies .... then they could get through and thats a nightmare or so it seemed to me.

I then did a complete reversal. I decided it was for that very reason that capitalist democracy was the best system! It sounds daft but here was my logic and feeling of which i still think holds a great deal of water. ie democracy prevents expert people from getting into power. That to me is a massive saving grace because i believe power corrupts. I don't want to live in a country where the people with the most political power, actually have real power and know what they are doing. Compared to the west, where numpties that are part of political parties fight amongst themselves, top dog gets to choose a fake bunch of experts who then claim credit for the economy or war going well. If things go wrong then it is a global factor beyond their control. Everything is just spin to get reelected. The opposing parties do their best to describe things as awful and blame everything that goes wrong on the ruling administration. The truth is that even if (and the selection process is never going to do this) politicians were honest experienced experts, then something as complex as a capitalist democratic economy and social system is way beyond human management. In other words the system runs itself, the politicians pretend it is them and the electorate feel that humans are in control. So for me celebrity politicians are great because they tell intelligent people immediately by their presence that politicians are largely irrelevant....... which is a good thing.

Of late however i am not so sure. First of all i now see that even if capitalist democracy runs itself (and i distinguish it from capitalism where the bosses really did have slaves) its success may depend upon exploiting non capitalist democracies. And worse that that exploitation must be maintained for cheap labour and resources for the democracies. In other words the system itself is exploitative but on a different level and scale.

Secondly, if people aren't in control then what guarantees stability? If the economics for example is highly influenced by computer programmes and telecommunications, what is to stop feedback loops and crashes? Worse if people aren't in control and are liable to emotive connections and reactions with the 'machine', then it is even more unstable.

What worries me the most however is the rise and rise of the world population. I think we are way past the point of being able to live without a massive machine beaurocracy to run our affairs. This dehumanisation is dangerous and unhealthy. We need to reconnect in a personal way, but without handing power from the machine to a power elite.
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Oct, 2009 10:24 am
@pagan,
pagan;97896 wrote:
Of late however i am not so sure. First of all i now see that even if capitalist democracy runs itself (and i distinguish it from capitalism where the bosses really did have slaves) its success may depend upon exploiting non capitalist democracies. And worse that that exploitation must be maintained for cheap labour and resources for the democracies. In other words the system itself is exploitative but on a different level and scale.


I would say that every nation looks out for it's self interest. That's not something special to capitalist democracies nor is there a system that actually works to end it.

pagan;97896 wrote:
Secondly, if people aren't in control then what guarantees stability? If the economics for example is highly influenced by computer programmes and telecommunications, what is to stop feedback loops and crashes? Worse if people aren't in control and are liable to emotive connections and reactions with the 'machine', then it is even more unstable.


Oh, it is highly unstable. Look at the bubbles in the economy. The tech bubble was only just over when we started the housing bubble.
pagan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Oct, 2009 11:21 am
@EmperorNero,
hi emporer nero

while i agree wholeheartedly that all nations and their systems have a tendency (or at least an intent on some level) to look after themselves, i don't think they are all the same in scale or character. For example capitalist democracy through distinct economic characteristics can be seen to be global. Exploitation (altruism and symbiosis generally) at that level is to be compared to cultural border disputes and national internal political conflict. They are not to be dismissed as the same methinks in order to gain an in depth understanding of different political systems.
0 Replies
 
Caroline
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Oct, 2009 11:46 am
@EmperorNero,
Capitalism? What you gonna do with all that money? Spread it about a bit.
Thanks.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Oct, 2009 12:14 pm
@Caroline,
Capitalism has become a dark and secretive enemy of the populace and only by revolt will we attain any liberty. Its not that we can expect a pronounced socialist party to defend the common man nor that a right wing party will impose any more obvious burdens on them, its the system that has the real power that we should all be concerned with.

Bankers bonuses , chemical industries privileges, arms industries immunity to fraud charges, the list is endless and the inability for any government to control them is obvious. We scratch at the surface and silly little concessions to press inspired public anger convinces us that we have the ability to direct our power and we feel content that the system is ours to maintain. How silly we all are.
0 Replies
 
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Oct, 2009 12:15 pm
@EmperorNero,
No it wont. But socialism wont bring you peace either and socialism will make you poor as well. More people lifted out of poverty in India and China over the last twenty years after adopting market reforms than in all their socialist history.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Oct, 2009 12:43 pm
@prothero,
prothero;97938 wrote:
No it wont. But socialism wont bring you peace either and socialism will make you poor as well. More people lifted out of poverty in India and China over the last twenty years after adopting market reforms than in all their socialist history.
Oh ye , everyone is enjoying the benefits of a capitalist society. Have you watched slum dog millionaire?
Pangloss
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Oct, 2009 12:50 pm
@Caroline,
Caroline;97933 wrote:
Capitalism? What you gonna do with all that money? Spread it about a bit.


Sure...in communist or socialist societies it usually gets spread to the political elite. And the major problem with this philosophy, is that you need the incentive of monetary reward to encourage production and entrepreneurship if you want the state to be competitive on a global scale.

Also, I'm going to restate what BrightNoon stated so truthfully on the preceding page of this thread, which seems to have gone ignored: The US "market" economy is not "capitalism" at all, and does not represent the ideals of the classical capitalist one bit. It may be somewhat more 'capitalist' than many other states, but it is not capitalism realized. The US economic strategy is the business system, with state-sponsored corporate monopolies, and does not have anything like a 'free market', where market mechanisms are unimpeded by both government and corporate influence. In a true 'free market', monopolistic economic power should not be able to exist.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Oct, 2009 12:59 pm
@Pangloss,
Pangloss;97947 wrote:
Sure...in communist or socialist societies it usually gets spread to the political elite. And the major problem with this philosophy, is that you need the incentive of monetary reward to encourage production and entrepreneurship if you want the state to be competitive on a global scale.

Also, I'm going to restate what BrightNoon stated so truthfully on the preceding page of this thread, which seems to have gone ignored: The US "market" economy is not "capitalism" at all, and does not represent the ideals of the classical capitalist one bit. It may be somewhat more 'capitalist' than many other states, but it is not capitalism realized. The US economic strategy is the business system, with state-sponsored corporate monopolies, and does not have anything like a 'free market', where market mechanisms are unimpeded by both government and corporate influence.
so give me an example of a socialist country that has suffered as you describe and give me the best example of a capitalists country that you can point to as defining capitalism at its best. This Utopian state is never as good as anyone ever maintains.
 

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