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Capitalism Will Bring World Peace

 
 
Pangloss
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Oct, 2009 01:13 pm
@xris,
xris;97948 wrote:
so give me an example of a socialist country that has suffered as you describe and give me the best example of a capitalists country that you can point to as defining capitalism at its best. This Utopian state is never as good as anyone ever maintains.


There are no examples of either utopian extreme. True socialism, and true capitalism, have not yet been realized for how they were both initially envisioned. Surely you know this. And if you are saying that, simply because they have not yet been realized, that they are impossible, then you are making a fallacious argument. We do have the power to change and improve things you know, even if this idea scares some people.

If you want a realistic comparison of capitalist vs. socialist policies, you can look at both economic freedoms and political freedoms of individuals in societies throughout history, and you will see that those states with economic policies that tend more towards capitalism were generally more free. That does not mean that there haven't been exceptions to this, or that other factors don't come into play when looking at political and economic freedoms, but it is a noticeable trend. The 'idea' of capitalism also pulled us away from feudalism, and even Karl Marx commended it for that, remember.

Of course it does have its own problems, and nothing is perfect, but remember that the true conception of capitalism has to do with individual economic freedom that works together for a more productive economic system. Socialism and communism are fundamentally opposed to individual economic freedom, and are in support of state control. Generally, greater economic freedom leads to greater political freedom.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Oct, 2009 01:28 pm
@Pangloss,
Another example of exaggeration and avoidance. There has been plenty of socialists countries and there improvement in the working mans freedom and ability to attain. Socialism does not remove anyone's freedom, it does not oppose a free economy, it opposes unrestricted capitalism. There is a world of difference between freedom to exchange and capitalism with a big C. You dont like calling the us a capitalist state because it represents the excesses of capitalism, it has been allowed to develop, just because of this unswerving devotion to its principles.
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Oct, 2009 01:35 pm
@xris,
xris;97954 wrote:
Another example of exaggeration and avoidance. There has been plenty of socialists countries and there improvement in the working mans freedom and ability to attain. Socialism does not remove anyone's freedom, it does not oppose a free economy, it opposes unrestricted capitalism. There is a world of difference between freedom to exchange and capitalism with a big C. You dont like calling the us a capitalist state because it represents the excesses of capitalism, it has been allowed to develop, just because of this unswerving devotion to its principles.


Socialism is defined as government ownership of the means of production, so yes, that what it does per definition.
0 Replies
 
Pangloss
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Oct, 2009 01:36 pm
@xris,
xris;97954 wrote:
There has been plenty of socialists countries and there improvement in the working mans freedom and ability to attain. Socialism does not remove anyone's freedom, it does not oppose a free economy, it opposes unrestricted capitalism. There is a world of difference between freedom to exchange and capitalism with a big C. You dont like calling the us a capitalist state because it represents the excesses of capitalism, it has been allowed to develop, just because of this unswerving devotion to its principles.


Socialism opposes individual economic freedom, that is a fact. Don't twist my words into some strawman and claim that I said "socialism removes freedom".

I don't like calling the US a capitalist state, because it certainly does not make capitalism its economic goal. The US has always been driven by big business and the business system, not by classical capitalism. It's just that people like you get duped by politicians who like to call things 'capitalism' or 'socialism' when in fact they are not. The US does not at all represent any excess of capitalism. Its problems are the result of excess government mismanagement. Monopolistic economic power exists through state sponsorship, and not by virtue of any capitalist system. US policymakers have hardly been devoted to the principles of capitalism; they are devoted to US big business and developing US corporate power and influence to its extreme...this has nothing to do with capitalism.

You might want to actually read up on true capitalist theory before you continue to so ignorantly spout off on the subject.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Oct, 2009 02:14 pm
@Pangloss,
Pangloss;97956 wrote:
Socialism opposes individual economic freedom, that is a fact. Don't twist my words into some strawman and claim that I said "socialism removes freedom".

I don't like calling the US a capitalist state, because it certainly does not make capitalism its economic goal. The US has always been driven by big business and the business system, not by classical capitalism. It's just that people like you get duped by politicians who like to call things 'capitalism' or 'socialism' when in fact they are not. The US does not at all represent any excess of capitalism. Its problems are the result of excess government mismanagement. Monopolistic economic power exists through state sponsorship, and not by virtue of any capitalist system. US policymakers have hardly been devoted to the principles of capitalism; they are devoted to US big business and developing US corporate power and influence to its extreme...this has nothing to do with capitalism.

You might want to actually read up on true capitalist theory before you continue to so ignorantly spout off on the subject.
I think its you that should do some reading before you make such outrageous claims. Funny when you consider socialism has defined the vast improvements in the working class position in the last hundred years. You then claim its capitalism that has never appeared but you have also claimed its successes are evident, now make your mind up. Excesses of unrestricted capitalism is the cause of our problems and not enough government controls of its greed.
Pangloss
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Oct, 2009 06:04 pm
@xris,
xris;97963 wrote:
You then claim its capitalism that has never appeared but you have also claimed its successes are evident, now make your mind up. Excesses of unrestricted capitalism is the cause of our problems and not enough government controls of its greed.


You do a great job at twisting around the words of others. I said that states using economic policy tending more towards capitalist theory are more successful in creating political freedoms, in general, than states using economic policy tending more towards socialism. I would not say that the US is "capitalist", just as I would not say that China is "communist". Anyone with one bit of economic knowledge would know that you can't label any of the systems out there now in this way; viewed relativistically, you can distinguish between states being 'more capitalist' or 'more socialist' than others, depending on their various policies.

You also do not know what a true 'free market' is, in theory. The free market does not mean an 'unrestricted' market, as in no government influence. What it means is that the market is designed to maximize economic freedom for individuals. The US system is not designed to do this at all, and I agree that the US business system is terrible, but we do not have a 'free market'. With a true free market, the government should create economic policy that decentralizes economic power as much as possible. Meaning, corporations, like the government, and other types of trusts or organized interests should not exert a controlling influence over the market. Anybody on wall street can tell you that this does not happen in the US, yet they might be naive enough to claim that it's a "free market", which it is not, in the classical capitalist sense. Maybe it is though, if you get your US economic and finance information from CNBC or Gorden Gekko in "Wall Street".

This thread deals with the theoretical and academic, not with the cliched, layman's type discussion of "capitalism" and "communism" as you will find on Fox News...no, the US is not a shining example of capitalism, not at all. Just as North Korea would be a terrible example of communist theory put into place as well. But it is all too evident that many believe these clear-cut revisionist media-made definitions of capitalism and communism that are spoon fed to them by some talking head on CNBC.

Try studying the literature on both theories, you might want to start with Adam Smith and Karl Marx. Until then, you can continue making half-witted strawman fallacies in response to somebody else, because I won't oblige you anymore.
0 Replies
 
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Oct, 2009 10:47 pm
@EmperorNero,
You know most capitallist countries will allow you to leave and emigrate to another country.
Anyone for Cuba, Venzuela or North Korea. Most socialist countries on the other hand are hard to get out of. Maybe there is a message there.

In addition most of the technological innovations, discoveries, scientificic and medical advances come out of so called "capitalistic countries, maybe there is a message there as well.

No current system is purely "free market" or purely "socialist" but state ownership of industry and the means of production has yet to outperform private ownership. Politicians can not run industries efficiently and effectively in either capitalist or socialist countries. In the long run the inefficient allocation of resources inherent in politically run economies underperforms private ownership and the society ends up poorer overall as a result. This is an experiment done time and time again with the same result.

The only way to acheive "equality and fairness" is to take from those who have managed to get ahead and give to those who have not. In effect taking resources from the ambitious and effective and allocating them to the less ambitious and less effective. The redistribution of land in former Rhodesia (once the breadbasket of africa) now the site of famine for example. It requires a form of state tyranny and substitutes political populism for truth (people are not equall and life is not fair). In the end it impoverishes everyone. As Lincoln noted "the right to rise" is an important motivation and "laws against getting rich" do more harm than good.


And as for war, socialiism and facism have been responsible for as many wars and as many human causualites as any capitlist nation in history. It used to be said no two nations with a McDonalds ever went to war (strong trading partners are often reluctant to resort to warfare). It is not strictly true but it has its merits.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Oct, 2009 03:38 am
@prothero,
Its this selection process i love to see, no such thing as a true capitalists country, i am told, then all the benefits are reeled out for me to admire. No such thing as real socialist country,i am informed, then all its horrors are recalled for me to question. Why the US is classified as a non capitalist country, suddenly, by those who admire its formula, is because it has blatantly failed its people. There are as many types of capitalism as there are sects in the christian faith, so this admiration of a system that has constantly failed after years of exploitation in one country or another, is almost too much to watch. True capitalism fails because greed is the motivation and it conspires to take advantage of those less able.

A mixed economy with liberal controls, labour laws and most importantly no privileged economic benefits by government lobbying or by corporate monopolies. Democratic socialism that allows free enterprise, is my government of choice. Put the name of capitalism on any form of government and it reeks of exploitation.

As for the claim that capitalism never caused a war, that's beyond even the most ardent fans imagination. Europe and in particular the UK waged war after war to exploit its capitalist hold on the world. 19c Europe is considered the first true capitalist strong hold and it never gave me the impression of being considerate to its working class or its neighbours.
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Oct, 2009 08:13 pm
@xris,
xris;98049 wrote:
A mixed economy with liberal controls, labour laws and most importantly no privileged economic benefits by government lobbying or by corporate monopolies. Democratic socialism that allows free enterprise, is my government of choice. Put the name of capitalism on any form of government and it reeks of exploitation.


Which country exactly do you admire? The US has failed some of its people no doubt as has every other political system. Which country's performance do you wish to put up against US economic progress, individual liberties, freedoms and rights. Which country is the utopia you are wanting to move to or whose system you would like to emulate? In what economy is the majority of the capital base of production publically owned and successfully operated for the public good? What centrally planned socialist country has outperformed private ownership over the long run?

There is some history involved here not just economic theory and philosophical musings. Even the democratic socialist countries of western Europe have private ownership and private business. They have high taxation rates, lower overall growth, some are dependent on income from exhaustible natural resources and the future viability of their economic models is in question. The general trend it towards more market driven mechanisms not larger government and government ownership of the means of production. Markets inherently more efficiently and effectively allocate resources (capital and human) than politicians can. There is no long term example in history of politicians (the state) outperforming markets.

The equality and fairness advantage of socialist systems is mythical and based on a false premise of human nature and of reality. Communal farms never produced a fraction of small plots privately owned. Man is a competitive and somewhat self centered creature and economic systems which acknowledge this reality outperform those that are based on some noble myth about the nature of man.
Pangloss
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Oct, 2009 08:35 pm
@prothero,
prothero;98208 wrote:
The equality and fairness advantage of socialist systems is mythical and based on a false premise of human nature and of reality. Communal farms never produced a fraction of small plots privately owned. Man is a competitive and somewhat self centered creature and economic systems which acknowledge this reality outperform those that are based on some noble myth about the nature of man.


Yes, good point.

Milton Friedman once said, "One of the great mistakes is to judge policies and programs by their intentions rather than their results." It seems that many, many people make this great mistake when considering political and economic policies.
0 Replies
 
RDRDRD1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2009 08:38 am
@EmperorNero,
Modern socialism has nothing to do with government ownership of means of production. I'm constantly amazed at the abject ignorance of so many, particularly Americans, as to the distinctions (there are many) between socialism and communism. Ownership of means of production necessitates a totalitarian state. Socialism operates best within a democracy while capitalism has shown that it's quite at home within a totalitarian, one-party state. The smartest move the Chinese leadership ever made was to realize just how much capitalism had to offer them. In case you haven't noticed, they're making out like bandits thanks to jobs that have fled democracies.
pagan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2009 12:04 pm
@RDRDRD1,
well i think this whole subject is very complex and it would be astounding if the various or binary oppositions didn't have something positive and creative to say on how we should live under todays economic and social conditions. Moreover i think i am reading different emphasis of interpretation of the same concepts between the differing factions. ie Freedom, security, wealth, law and above all humanity.

I have just explored some peter schiff videos and they are very thought provoking. Basically it seems to me he is saying that if a business doesn't produce a profit from its services or manufacturing (and that means necessarily without the dimension of massive speculative input) then it isn't sound and will eventually recess or bust. Propping such businesses up is disastrous because it gives unfair competition against leaner and more efficient companies and individuals. He primarily blames the government not the free market, and his argument is that it isn't a free market if the government encourages speculation with cheap money and the underwriting of failure. He claims that Obama is actually even worse than Bush in this respect, because Bush covered up the Clinton mess and Obama is trying to do the same re the even bigger Bush mess. He claims the money borrowed by the USA from china etc. has been wasted on consumerist spending, and real estate speculation far away from sound investment. That money will not be paid back, therefore the rest of the world will uncouple from the dollar, the USA will hit hyper inflation and ......

As a brit i can see many parallels in our country. We don't produce much, we have borrowed billions and billions (soon to be trillions!) and our biggest money earner has been the city for years. Which is the very thing being propped up by the borrowing.

But although PS has predicted successfully what was going to happen and given what appears to be common sense analysis as to why it happened, he does appear to me (not surprisingly) to have a very stock broker centered view of the world. He is obsessed with wealth and profit, albeit apparently outside the ridiculous, irresponsible and avarice based attitudes of others. Whether from consumers, politicians or the city. For example he talks of 'difficulties' and hyper inflation resulting from the necessary recession. A recession that he feels will be a good thing because then we can get back to good business practice and trade. But i haven't heard him actually describe in human terms what these difficulties are going to be. He comes across as enthusiastically cold. The enthusiasm and common sense is intoxicating ..... and in the end it always comes down to 'get government out of the way'. But what about the people? What about the unemployed and sick and poor, however they are connected to the USA?

Now i can sympathise with the government as a stupid and meddling thing a great deal, but not to be replaced by a consumerist world fed by barely regulated manufacturers and city slickers who are somehow forced by the markets to self correct back to 'sound business principles'. Quite apart from the issue of trust ...... where's the humanity? Where is the magic of being alive?

In the end he promotes the machine. He may want to turn down the bass of government and up the treble of free trade, but it is still a cold vision of humanity, however self regulating and efficient. Like a giant ant hill.
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2009 12:18 pm
@pagan,
pagan;98311 wrote:
.. and in the end it always comes down to 'get government out of the way'. But what about the people? What about the unemployed and sick and poor, however they are connected to the USA?
One can not enforce economic equality and fairness except through the tyranny of government. In the end the poor are more likely to become employed (as opposed to collecting welfare) and the overall standard of living to rise (as opposed to falling or remaining stagnant) in market based than government planned economies. A very good case for government intervention in housing markets as the cause of the current problem can be made. True market economies are the result of the free decisions of millions of consumers, a little like economic democracy. There is a role for government oversight and regulation but when government begins to comprise 30,40,50+ percent of the economy you are headed for trouble.
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2009 12:26 pm
@EmperorNero,
Everybody,
there is a thread for these debates about socialism.
http://www.philosophyforum.com/philosophy-forums/secondary-branches-philosophy/philosophy-politics/4203-socialism-moved-grapes-wrath.html
This isn't the right place.
0 Replies
 
pagan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2009 12:54 pm
@prothero,
prothero;98316 wrote:
One can not enforce economic equality and fairness except through the tyranny of government ............... There is a role for government oversight and regulation but when government begins to comprise 30,40,50+ percent of the economy you are headed for trouble.


well yeh i can agree generally with that but to leap to "Capitalism Will Bring World Peace" just seems bizarre. I read no humanity in these de regulated free trade analysise. 'The difficulties that will inevitably arise when the system self corrects are necessary and right', within that understanding of social systems. But what kind of language is that? Are we to replace trust in the expertise and well meaning of politicians (which as i have already said is defunct for me) with a go for it commitment to insurance?

Oh dear. No thanks. I am sick to death of their advertising. Totally bluh, devoid of any richness of being. I can't decide which is worse ........ listening to gordon brown or watching a bunch of grateful idiots laughing at a sleazy rodent who tells them to 'go compare the market'.
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2009 01:12 pm
@prothero,
prothero;98208 wrote:
Which country exactly do you admire? The US has failed some of its people no doubt as has every other political system. Which country's performance do you wish to put up against US economic progress, individual liberties, freedoms and rights. Which country is the utopia you are wanting to move to or whose system you would like to emulate? In what economy is the majority of the capital base of production publically owned and successfully operated for the public good? What centrally planned socialist country has outperformed private ownership over the long run?

There is some history involved here not just economic theory and philosophical musings. Even the democratic socialist countries of western Europe have private ownership and private business. They have high taxation rates, lower overall growth, some are dependent on income from exhaustible natural resources and the future viability of their economic models is in question. The general trend it towards more market driven mechanisms not larger government and government ownership of the means of production. Markets inherently more efficiently and effectively allocate resources (capital and human) than politicians can. There is no long term example in history of politicians (the state) outperforming markets.

The equality and fairness advantage of socialist systems is mythical and based on a false premise of human nature and of reality. Communal farms never produced a fraction of small plots privately owned. Man is a competitive and somewhat self centered creature and economic systems which acknowledge this reality outperform those that are based on some noble myth about the nature of man.
I have no problem with America but it has not performed to the expectations and the resources it has held. I cant help but notice you ignore the problems America has by its strict adherence to corporate capitalism, exactly the complaints you lay at your confused views on socialism. I cant believe you are still referring to socialism as if it was communism , you have no idea of what socialism is. These wild claims of high taxation , government ownership where in the hell do you get your information? Most modern democratic socialist government can not be distinguished from their right wing opponents.

A free market economy can never be fulfilled as a peace maker because it does not contain any moral values for its participants to abide to. It breaks down when any commodity becomes held by any one community, human greed takes hold and wars ensue.
pagan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2009 02:42 pm
@xris,
here is a link that i found interesting because it is peter schiff talking about the collapse to come 3 years ago. It is over an hour long and very financial in its language of course.....

YouTube - Peter Schiff Mortgage Bankers Speech Nov/13/06

what is interesting is how the other guy is so pro market and confident, and how he shakes his head in disbelief at what PS is warning about. In other words there are no more experts in the free market than there are in politics! How can such replace corruption and ineptitude in government when they are just as corrupt and inept?

I believe that our global economic and social system is way past the point of complexity where a simple grand narrative like socialism or free market capitalism could possible present a peaceful and stable future. We need to connect in a way that bypasses these simplistic overarching narratives. To start reconnecting on a much more personal and common sense level. We need to stop looking for simplistic grand narratives that are sold to us through the media. To stop placing our trust in people we do not know, and will never know on a personal level. There is no chance of us ever conversing even through the internet with the 'experts' and big knobs of socialism or the city. Or even conversing with other people who know them personally. It is this break in the chain of human contact that leaves us open to the beaurocratic machine running out of control. Capitalism doesn't connect us on a personal level, it is the language of the large scale ........ of cold percentages.

(and the language of emotive promises from media politicians is no more closer or reliable)
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2009 03:09 pm
@pagan,
Any common revolt is always sabotaged by those who seek power for its own sake. Many well meant ventures are poisoned by the deviants. The rise of socialism only had simple intentions ,to temper the excesses of capitalism.
0 Replies
 
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2009 06:00 pm
@xris,
xris;98341 wrote:
I have no problem with America but it has not performed to the expectations and the resources it has held. I cant help but notice you ignore the problems America has by its strict adherence to corporate capitalism, exactly the complaints you lay at your confused views on socialism. I cant believe you are still referring to socialism as if it was communism , you have no idea of what socialism is. These wild claims of high taxation , government ownership where in the hell do you get your information? Most modern democratic socialist government can not be distinguished from their right wing opponents.


Just whose definition of "socialism" and "communism" are you using?
Was the USSR a socialist or a communist form of government?
The US is not a democracy it is a republic and for that matter a federal system.
The US economy is not an Adam Smith "free market" or pure capitalism.
None of this changes the fact that private ownership and markets more effectively allocate human resources and capital over the long run (thereby increasing the overall wealth and production of the scoiety) better than politically run economies. As was previously mentioned policies should be evaluated by their results not by their intentions.

All forms of government have engaged in warfare but wealthier societies are less likely to engage in all out war.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2009 03:36 am
@prothero,
prothero;98393 wrote:
Just whose definition of "socialism" and "communism" are you using?
Was the USSR a socialist or a communist form of government?
The US is not a democracy it is a republic and for that matter a federal system.
The US economy is not an Adam Smith "free market" or pure capitalism.
None of this changes the fact that private ownership and markets more effectively allocate human resources and capital over the long run (thereby increasing the overall wealth and production of the scoiety) better than politically run economies. As was previously mentioned policies should be evaluated by their results not by their intentions.

All forms of government have engaged in warfare but wealthier societies are less likely to engage in all out war.
If i was engaged in debating communism, i would not call it socialism. In any terms America is a capitalist country and it abides by democratic principles so these strange play on words is not conducive to a reasoned debate. Yes all countries have entered war but this notion that capitalism will stop war is not valid. Democratic Socialism intends to soften the hardships a free market can inflict on its less able citizens, capitalism without morals, is the politics of the jungle.
0 Replies
 
 

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