Socialism (Moved from Grapes of Wrath)

Why should i be in favour of that?How can you relate gun control with intrusion.

The government intruding in our lives for the sake of safety.
Isn't the government locking you up for owning what it thinks you are unfit to own the same as being filmed?

Brightnoon, let's revisit the drunk pilot example. Your analysis is flawed in that it utterly ignores his passengers and the pilot's responsibility to them and for their well-being. What right does he have to fly drunk without their informed consent? Perhaps that's the answer. If he wishes to avoid prosecution, he should parade up and down the aisles getting passengers to sign consent forms. The only reason he's flying in the first place is his plainly implied agreement to operate the aircraft to the very best of his ability, that means sober. His pilot's licence is not given as of right. It is a privilege. He has no right to fly at all save in accordance with the terms under which he is given the privilege and, pursuant to those terms, he consents to prosecution for their breach.

Your analysis is flawed because you fundementally do not understand the basis of the pilot-passenger relationship. It is contractual relationship. Both parties are involved in a mutually voluntary contract. The pilot has only what responsibilities he is contracted to have. Whether or not flying drunk is prohibited by the terms of the contract determines whether or not the pilot has a responsibility to fly sober. If he fails to meet such a responsibility, he has violated the terms of a contract, and can be sued in civil court, but has committed no crime. If he actually crashes the plane due to negligence, then he has committed a crime.

When does socialism punish kids for getting better grades, are you really being serious?

Why should the majority of people who fall below the level of a certain income be forced to pay taxes at a higher rate than those who are above that rate.

The state does not redistribute income, it taxes those who earn and helps those who are below a certain income.

The book gives you good example of a society that cares only for winners.We are not talking about scroungers or the lazy but honest hard working folk who by circumstance or even greed by those who have succeeded, fallen on hard times, they need for humanities sake for society to aid their recovery.

Welfare systems do not 'aid their recovery,' welfare systems institutionalize poverty.

Nero, these debates become tenuous, even boring,

Of course he has committed a crime, the crime of reckless endangerment for starters. Much as this may infuriate you and seem oppressive, we don't let people recklessly endanger the lives of others. We're such fascist control freaks that we actually pass laws like this and, guess what, the public overwhelmingly support it because it makes perfect sense to 99.999% of us.

I just hope in this bright noo world certain individuals dont need to be reminded they stand and fall on their own.For me you can keep it, ide rather live in a caring society where the weakest or misfortunate are just as valued as the strongest.Without the little consumers paying their valued added taxes,how much more would the fat cats be paying in tax?

Wouldn't you rather live in a society where everyone has the chance to make something of themselves than one where we make it nice to be poor?

Its never nice to be poor i can assure you of that.My father spent four years of his life fighting the nazis.When he came back,sick with fatigue and injuries he found someone had taken his job, he managed to find work but suffered constantly with ill health.I was constantly hungry and the clothes hung of my back .My mother suffered a nervous break down through the worry of it all.Many of his friends could not work and they lived in poverty for years.Now you tell me why the fat cats who made millions out of the war and those who stayed home should not have contributed to their needs?

Capitalist societies dont judge a man by his ability or his willingness to work they judge him by his value to them.If your not wanted however much value you may have in real terms your thrown to the wolves, you can keep it friend.

Sorry for your troubles.



You socialists always minsunderstand the fundemental basis of capitalist society. You assume there is a central will as there is under a authoritatian, collectivist system. In a free society (a libertarian, free market, republican society) 'society' doesn't judge anyone. 'Society' doesn't determines the value of anyone or anything. Value is always the product of voluntary agreement among free individuals. If an individual fails to bargain well and enters into agreements that hurt his interests, that's his fault an and his problem. If an individual is simply not satisfied with the bargaining chips he started the game with, so to speak, he has to take that up with God. Everyone is NOT equal, and to try to make everyone equal is 1) impossible, 2) unjust, 3) requires totalitarian control.

I fully understand the values of a capitalistic society,thats why i reject its ethos.We all have a value and in a caring society it realises that today's necessary labour needs to be protected from the variables of capitalist state.

Its never nice to be poor i can assure you of that. My father spent four years of his life fighting the nazis. When he came back, sick with fatigue and injuries he found someone had taken his job, he managed to find work but suffered constantly with ill health. I was constantly hungry and the clothes hung of my back. My mother suffered a nervous break down through the worry of it all. Many of his friends could not work and they lived in poverty for years. Now you tell me why the fat cats who made millions out of the war and those who stayed home should not have contributed to their needs?
Capitalist societies don't judge a man by his ability or his willingness to work they judge him by his value to them. If your not wanted however much value you may have in real terms your thrown to the wolves, you can keep it friend.

The nazis were socialists, it's right there in the name. Just as todays leftists, the nazis had a ideology of the greater good being more important than the individual.
It was in fact advocating similar socialist policies that got the nazis into power.
What made world war two possible was granting the elites the power to pull it off, which is, despite you disagreeing, what you are advocating.
Yes, wars are fought because somebody gets rich selling bombs. So your solution is giving the government the ability and incentive to do so with the guise of helping the downtrodden?

But it was also a theoretical question. Would you rather live in a society where everyone has the chance to make something of themselves or one where we make it nice to be poor?

May I ask where your father fought?

I want to live in a society where everyone has opportunity and can use their ability to serve the community, not the individuals right to harvest their wealth without respecting the community that enabled them to succeed. No man is an island and when an individual who through no fault of his, falls, we should be prepared to help lift him up.

My father joined up in 1940 served initially on anti-aircraft guns in the east end of London and then went onto the invasion of Normandy, ending up in Berlin.He remarked the bombing of London was just as terrifying as anything he experienced in Europe.

I want to point out that despite the name National Socialist Party(translated), it was a drive towards national excellence which turned into an assertion of national superiority and national right which drove the Nazi regime.

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Hitler's Germany was a fascist regime, not a socialist one.

How in hells name did socialism cause the Nazis rise to power, communists were their main adversary before they took power. I can never understand why you always relate the right wing attitudes of the third Reich with socialism. It may have chosen the name but it did not ever represent a socialist cause.