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Socialism (Moved from Grapes of Wrath)

 
 
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 05:20 am
I listened The Grapes of Wrath as Audio Book until they reach California and everybody starts dying.
From there it just goes socialist on you, and reading the Wikipedia summary on the rest was enough for me.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 27,097 • Replies: 601
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xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 06:00 am
@EmperorNero,
NoEmperorNero wrote:
I listened The Grapes of Wrath as Audio Book until they reach California and everybody starts dying.
From there it just goes socialist on you, and reading the Wikipedia summary on the rest was enough for me.
Socialism is not a dirty word for all of us.:perplexed:.What really made you stop reading it ?the reality of the story?..
0 Replies
 
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 06:06 am
@EmperorNero,
Well... if you consider listening to the audio book reading. Wink
I think the reality - as in everybody dying - somewhat disturbed me.

And that socialism isn't a dirty word any more will doom us all. Sad
Rasmussen Reports: The Most Comprehensive Public Opinion Data Anywhere
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 06:29 am
@EmperorNero,
NoEmperorNero wrote:
Well... if you consider listening to the audio book reading. Wink
I think the reality - as in everybody dying - somewhat disturbed me.

And that socialism isn't a dirty word any more will doom us all. Sad
Rasmussen Reports: The Most Comprehensive Public Opinion Data Anywhere
So whats dirty about it ?and what has a report on opinions have to do with determining its value.I think it disturbed you because of your vision of society and the actual realty it could produce.Not everyone survives and we need society to accept that fact and catch those who fall.
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 07:24 am
@xris,
xris;58605 wrote:
So whats dirty about it ?


Rewarding bad behaviour, punishing good behaviour.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 07:58 am
@EmperorNero,
NoEmperorNero wrote:
Rewarding bad behaviour, punishing good behaviour.
Do you realise this is pure rhetoric of no value.I suppose you are referring to the bankers or the car industries helping hand out .Of course this a very socialist activity helping the rich, is it not...Giving arms deals to the company who gives the biggest contribution to a certain republican party, another socialist weakness.
0 Replies
 
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 08:18 am
@EmperorNero,
I was referring to modern socialist tendencies in general.
Such as progressively taxing the productive - or the rich aka. the middle class - for politicians to buy votes.
It's punishing good behaviour and rewarding bad behaviour.
Did you know that half of Americans don't pay any income tax? Why would they vote against tax increases?
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 08:37 am
@EmperorNero,
NoEmperorNero wrote:
I was referring to modern socialist tendencies in general.
Such as progressively taxing the productive - or the rich aka. the middle class - for politicians to buy votes.
It's punishing good behaviour and rewarding bad behaviour.
Did you know that half of Americans don't pay any income tax? Why would they vote against tax increases?
So in your world where would your government obtain its income from ? Why would they vote against tax increases..who? vote for what? i dont understand your question..Im sorry but how else does a government obtain taxes, are you saying the rich should pay less and the poor more? If anything the rich by their ability pay less respectively than the poor so do you intend to widen that gap and make the rich richer and the poor poorer.Sorry im absolutely delighted im a socialist, when i see this rhetoric.
0 Replies
 
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 09:14 am
@EmperorNero,
Everybody paying the same rate does sound fair to me.
Do you agree that it is a good idea to punish your children for better grades, while rewarding bad grades?

Why would the majority, that does not pay any taxes, be against socialism?
They don't have to pay for it.
The state has no business redistributing wealth. Quit useless social programs and the state does not need as much income.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 09:56 am
@EmperorNero,
NoEmperorNero wrote:
Everybody paying the same rate does sound fair to me.
Do you agree that it is a good idea to punish your children for better grades, while rewarding bad grades?

Why would the majority, that does not pay any taxes, be against socialism?
They don't have to pay for it.
The state has no business redistributing wealth. Quit useless social programs and the state does not need as much income.
When does socialism punish kids for getting better grades, are you really being serious? Why should the majority of people who fall below the level of a certain income be forced to pay taxes at a higher rate than those who are above that rate.The state does not redistribute income, it taxes those who earn and helps those who are below a certain income.The book gives you good example of a society that cares only for winners.We are not talking about scroungers or the lazy but honest hard working folk who by circumstance or even greed by those who have succeeded, fallen on hard times, they need for humanities sake for society to aid their recovery.
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 10:20 am
@xris,
xris;58643 wrote:
When does socialism punish kids for getting better grades, are you really being serious?


You will pay a higher tax rate for being more productive.
You will get money for being unproductive.

xris;58643 wrote:
Why should the majority of people who fall below the level of a certain income be forced to pay taxes at a higher rate than those who are above that rate.


Not higher. The same.

xris;58643 wrote:
The state does not redistribute income, it taxes those who earn and helps those who are below a certain income.


Which is exactly what redistributing income means.

xris;58643 wrote:
We are not talking about scroungers or the lazy but honest hard working folk who by circumstance or even greed by those who have succeeded, fallen on hard times, they need for humanities sake for society to aid their recovery.


But that's not what actually happens, and that's not what socialists propose.
What socialism mostly does is giving money to those that don't deserve it.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 10:50 am
@EmperorNero,
I think your ingrained views on socialism are distorted and your grasp of the tax systems is a bit blinkered.How can you have a rate of tax that comes into effect when you earn a certain amount then say it only applies to those who are above that rate.With your accounting everyone would pay more, the rich and the poor.Tax does not apply to the educated it applies to everyone, a brick layer on X amount pays the same as librarian on X amount.I think your confused.The principles of socialism is what we are debating, not its failures, as you know with the fall in grace of the banking system not even your wonderful republican world is perfect.
0 Replies
 
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 11:29 am
@EmperorNero,
We have to disagree as we have gone off topic far enough and this is not a politics forum.
You simply state contradictions, and frankly you are wrong.
I was referring to regressive taxing, not anything else.
Smile
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 11:43 am
@EmperorNero,
NoEmperorNero wrote:
We have to disagree as we have gone off topic far enough and this is not a politics forum.
You simply state contradictions, and frankly you are wrong.
I was referring to regressive taxing, not anything else.
Smile
Oh no you made more of it than that , you concluded that a social view was being expressed in a work of literature that you found somehow offensive.You cant say I make contradictions or i am wrong and not point them out..Smiley faces are on the way out i believe by demand.:sarcastic:
0 Replies
 
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 12:40 pm
@EmperorNero,
I didn't find The Grapes of Wrath offensive, I quite liked it.
I pointed out that a socialist view was expressed, which certainly is justified in the context of the book.
I do believe that there has been progress since the time depicted in the book.
I am fine with creating equality of opportunity and helping those, that fell on a hard time.

You stated that income redistribution is not taxing those who earn and giving it to others.
I call that a contradiction. I like to know what else income redistribution in your view is.
And then you somehow equated not progressively taxing with regressively taxing.

Progressive taxing - taxing higher income at a higher rate - is in my view unfair.
It is taking more from someone because the person is productive. I called that punishing bad behaviour.
An an analogy, it is like giving your child a higher reward for a worse grade.

My utopia of a free country is one that allows it's citizen to keep the fruit of ones work.
Most socialist programs these days don't advance equality of opportunity.
They merely takes from those that have and gives to those that don't have.
The main purpose is for politicians to get votes from those who receive the money.
It seems to me like an advanced system of bribery.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 01:18 pm
@EmperorNero,
NoEmperorNero wrote:
I didn't find The Grapes of Wrath offensive, I quite liked it.
I pointed out that a socialist view was expressed, which certainly is justified in the context of the book.
I do believe that there has been progress since the time depicted in the book.
I am fine with creating equality of opportunity and helping those, that fell on a hard time.

You stated that income redistribution is not taxing those who earn and giving it to others.
I call that a contradiction. I like to know what else income redistribution in your view is.
And then you somehow equated not progressively taxing with regressively taxing.

Progressive taxing - taxing higher income at a higher rate - is in my view unfair.
It is taking more from someone because the person is productive. I called that punishing bad behaviour.
An an analogy, it is like giving your child a higher reward for a worse grade.

My utopia of a free country is one that allows it's citizen to keep the fruit of ones work.
Most socialist programs these days don't advance equality of opportunity.
They merely takes from those that have and gives to those that don't have.
The main purpose is for politicians to get votes from those who receive the money.
It seems to me like an advanced system of bribery.
You obviously have no idea of socialist principles, you are referring to communist ideology not a social community.You are assuming that all the overtly rich are some wonderful examples of work maketh the man.Why dont you consider that no one makes excessive amounts of money by just their work ethics.When does exploitation of the system become crude and unacceptable.When does the fact that by using the system the multinational avoids its tax commitment.If a working man is earning just enough to live on , should he be taxed at the same basic rate as a millionaire ? Sorry but your views in my opinion come from a blinkered and ill thought out gut reaction.
0 Replies
 
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 02:33 pm
@EmperorNero,
"The trouble with socialism is it runs out of people to steal from." - Vladimir Putin (To my knowledge)

I confuse socialism with communism? Would you shorty define socialism and communism for the sake of the argument?

For some reason taxing the middle class is always excused with the existence of super-rich multinationals.
If you have a problem with exploitation of the system, try to prevent exploitation of the system.

And how can you generalise on the method of how "the rich" made their money?
So we as a society can decide that they all made their money unfairly and don't deserve it.
Okay.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 02:54 pm
@EmperorNero,
NoEmperorNero wrote:
"The trouble with socialism is it runs out of people to steal from." - Vladimir Putin (To my knowledge)

I confuse socialism with communism? Would you shorty define socialism and communism for the sake of the argument?

For some reason taxing the middle class is always excused with the existence of super-rich multinationals.
If you have a problem with exploitation of the system, try to prevent exploitation of the system.

And how can you generalise on the method of how "the rich" made their money?
So we as a society can decide that they all made their money unfairly and don't deserve it.
Okay.
Taking quotes from a gangster does not do your credibilty any good.Look at communist states and a modern socialist governments to define the difference or wickie it like most others do.
When have you seen the middle classes being exploited by the working class? do me a favour.My dentist drives three cars every one worth six times more than my Nissan .I dont deny him his exploitation of the system but dont say he does no need to invest in the society that allows him these excesses.Oh i hear you, everyone could be a dentist, not so if you have a background not encouraging or allowing you this advantage.I can point to a thousand ways conglomerates exploit their position and abuse their power.In america 70,000 are employed exploiting the political jungle they call lobbying.Why do you think these companies spend so much money pampering our politicians? When your middle class bankers become unemployed do they then become socialists or do they starve for their politics..
0 Replies
 
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 03:05 pm
@EmperorNero,
You were claiming I am referring to communist ideology instead of socialist principles.
I ask you to back that up instead of just telling me to look it up, because I think you are wrong, sir.
How is what I was referring to not socialist, but communist?
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 03:26 pm
@EmperorNero,
NoEmperorNero wrote:
You were claiming I am referring to communist ideology instead of socialist principles.
I ask you to back that up instead of just telling me to look it up, because I think you are wrong, sir.
How is what I was referring to not socialist, but communist?
So i will ask you is there a socialist government in the uk and how does it compare to your views on socialism and your historic views on communist russia or china...???????Do you think the american administration has a socialist agenda? Its these views that encouraged the McCarthy witch hunts, i hoped certain individuals of education would be better informed.
 

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