1
   

An electron is a posit?

 
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 09:12 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;128769 wrote:
Which metaphor? Is there a metaphor?



No wonder. You no longer can even recognize metaphors.
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 09:13 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;128772 wrote:
No wonder. You no longer can even recognize metaphors.


And you apparently can't point them out, after recommending a blocking of them.
Scottydamion
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 09:15 pm
@Reconstructo,
kennethamy;128772 wrote:
No wonder. You no longer can even recognize metaphors.


Reconstructo;128773 wrote:
And you apparently can't point them out, after recommending a blocking of them.


Can't we all just get along?...

I for one saw the metaphor and the lack of the metaphor, making myself a contradiction *head explodes*
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 09:22 pm
@Scottydamion,
Scottydamion;128777 wrote:
Can't we all just get along?...

I for one saw the metaphor and the lack of the metaphor, making myself a contradiction *head explodes*


No hard feelings. I was curious as to what was supposed to be the metaphor. I love metaphors. I didn't remember using one.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 11:20 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple;128670 wrote:
Yes, because information can not travel faster than light, according to general relativity, nothing can. I am not in conflict with information because with my theory the electron is stretched over space so while one part of the electron is at one end, it's other parts are at the other end completely connected and not requiring any information gab or even transfer of information. It does not even need any information so it doesn't violate any known principals.
(emphasis added)

I think you are in trouble here, because I do not believe that an electron has parts. Although I will defer to anyone who can prove I am wrong.
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 11:25 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;128834 wrote:
(emphasis added)

I think you are in trouble here, because I do not believe that an electron has parts. Although I will defer to anyone who can prove I am wrong.


I think you're right. I'm not saying Wiki is God, but I would think a mistake on such an issue would have been caught by now.

The electron is a subatomic particle that carries a negative electric charge. It has no known components or substructure, and therefore is believed to be an elementary particle.[2]
0 Replies
 
Scottydamion
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Feb, 2010 12:50 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;128834 wrote:
(emphasis added)

I think you are in trouble here, because I do not believe that an electron has parts. Although I will defer to anyone who can prove I am wrong.


I think it a good idea to remain skeptical that it is an elementary particle until further research is capable. At the moment there is just recently a new particle collider that is the biggest so far, if there is something else to an electron, hopefully we will find out soon.

You must remember that we once thought protons and neutrons were elementary, and then we found out they are made of quarks, so there is plenty of room for the suspention of judgement on this one. Nowhere in physics do you have to checkmark "elementary particle" to complete your equation.

---------- Post added 02-16-2010 at 12:53 AM ----------

Reconstructo;128837 wrote:
I think you're right. I'm not saying Wiki is God, but I would think a mistake on such an issue would have been caught by now.

The electron is a subatomic particle that carries a negative electric charge. It has no known components or substructure, and therefore is believed to be an elementary particle.[2]


With science one has to know the boundaries to research before knowing where to place a line as far as what "would have been caught by now". With further ability to observe particles has come new understanding. So since the boundary has recently been moved back with the Large Hadron Collider, hopefully we will be able to see smaller subatomic particles if there are any others.
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Feb, 2010 01:20 am
@Scottydamion,
Scottydamion;128863 wrote:

With science one has to know the boundaries to research before knowing where to place a line as far as what "would have been caught by now". With further ability to observe particles has come new understanding. So since the boundary has recently been moved back with the Large Hadron Collider, hopefully we will be able to see smaller subatomic particles if there are any others.


I agree. I don't specialize in science. I was just stating my lack of absolute trust, shall we say, in Wiki. What does it mean, even, for the non-expert to take sources in general as authoritative? Unless a person truly understands the science and the experiments, they must make a social call as to who to trust. I like science, but I'm more of a half-fiction writer.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Feb, 2010 02:39 am
@Scottydamion,
Scottydamion;128863 wrote:
I think it a good idea to remain skeptical.


Agreed. I am adopting a skeptical position. The question was whether an electron exists. It is said to be an elementary particle. If it is an elementary particle, then it has no parts. If it has parts, then it is not an elementary particle. If it is not an elementary particle, then it doesn't exist.

Now I won't for one minute claim to understand what an electron is. In fact I think I am on safe ground if I say that nobody can form a coherent verbal or conceptual picture of subatomic particles. What we can do is make measurements in instruments that confirm or refute mathematical hypotheses. But many scientists, as I understand it, have long since given up trying to work out 'what' they are measuring.

I am starting to wonder if we are not looking immaterial realities right in the face, and refusing to believe what we are seeing.
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Feb, 2010 02:44 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;128899 wrote:

I am starting to wonder if we are not looking immaterial realities right in the face, and refusing to believe what we are seeing.


I have a sneaking suspicion that subject and substance only pretended to get divorced.
0 Replies
 
Scottydamion
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Feb, 2010 02:51 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;128899 wrote:
I am starting to wonder if we are not looking immaterial realities right in the face, and refusing to believe what we are seeing.


It is an interesting concept, material. Because what we experience on this scale is certainly not the same as the bizarre things quantum physicists try to wrap their heads around. So even if that concept, the quantum concept, becomes our definition of material... with such a disconnect between the two views, it seems to make the use of the word somewhat of a red herring.
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Feb, 2010 02:52 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;128834 wrote:
(emphasis added)

I think you are in trouble here, because I do not believe that an electron has parts. Although I will defer to anyone who can prove I am wrong.


Are you serious? Did you even read what was written? I would call you a moron but that might get my post deleted so I won't. I am not talking about the electron having parts, I am saying "part of it" is in one location while the other "part of it" is in another location. I was not referring to multiple parts, only one thing but spread out over space. How could you have got that wrong by reading?

I should probably mention, that this is really not my idea at all. There are many who have this same basic theory in the works and it has been theorized long ago as being a possibility. It isn't something new, so maybe look it up?
Scottydamion
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Feb, 2010 03:02 am
@Krumple,
Krumple;128903 wrote:
Are you serious? Did you even read what was written? I would call you a moron but that might get my post deleted so I won't. I am not talking about the electron having parts, I am saying "part of it" is in one location while the other "part of it" is in another location. I was not referring to multiple parts, only one thing but spread out over space. How could you have got that wrong by reading?


You're one to talk Krumple. Look back to my post on page 8. You would do well to look up the difference between where a particle is and the superposition of that particle before it is observed.

(I use the word particle for simplicity's sake, but if you look up superposition hopefully you'll understand why I took the time to correct myself in these parentheses)
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Feb, 2010 03:15 am
@Scottydamion,
Scottydamion;128906 wrote:
You're one to talk Krumple. Look back to my post on page 8. You would do well to look up the difference between where a particle is and the superposition of that particle before it is observed.

(I use the word particle for simplicity's sake, but if you look up superposition hopefully you'll understand why I took the time to correct myself in these parentheses)


Yeah I am aware of the ability to pin point the electron, but do you even know the method that is used to do this? Do you also know the problems with it? You can determine where it is but you can't determine where it is going or how fast. You can find out where it is going or how fast but not where it is. You can't know both an electron's position and direction or speed at the same time. Why is that? Surely a particle can't just jump around. People like to say that the electron phases in and out of our universe and that is why you can't always locate it. I say that is making thing more complicated than necessary, there must be another reason.

I answered your question on page twelve. I guess you missed it?
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Feb, 2010 03:25 am
@Krumple,
Krumple;128903 wrote:
Are you serious? Did you even read what was written? I would call you a moron but that might get my post deleted so I won't. I am not talking about the electron having parts, I am saying "part of it" is in one location while the other "part of it" is in another location. I was not referring to multiple parts, only one thing but spread out over space. How could you have got that wrong by reading?

I should probably mention, that this is really not my idea at all. There are many who have this same basic theory in the works and it has been theorized long ago as being a possibility. It isn't something new, so maybe look it up?


Golly I'm glad you avoided being rude there, must have been an effort. Now explain to me how a thing that has no parts can be extended. If you have a reference to this idea, please indicate it.
0 Replies
 
Scottydamion
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Feb, 2010 03:44 am
@Krumple,
Krumple;128910 wrote:
Yeah I am aware of the ability to pin point the electron, but do you even know the method that is used to do this? Do you also know the problems with it? You can determine where it is but you can't determine where it is going or how fast. You can find out where it is going or how fast but not where it is. You can't know both an electron's position and direction or speed at the same time. Why is that? Surely a particle can't just jump around. People like to say that the electron phases in and out of our universe and that is why you can't always locate it. I say that is making thing more complicated than necessary, there must be another reason.

I answered your question on page twelve. I guess you missed it?


It's called Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, and I am more than aware of it, I've done the proof in my physics class. A better way of describing it is the more you know about one the less you know about the other, but you can't know either with certainty, and it is velocity so it would be direction and speed together. Also there is a minimum you can know about one or the other, which is equal to h-bar divided by two.

It is not making things too complicated, this is not a lightbulb that went on inside some theoretical physicist's head, particles have been observed to pop in and out of existence in vacuums, can you explain that with your bubble?

---------- Post added 02-16-2010 at 03:49 AM ----------

Krumple;128660 wrote:
"The wave nature of the electron means that in a double slit experiment even a single electron is capable of interfering with itself. Double slit experiments with photoionized hydrogen molecules at first showed only the self-interference patterns of the fast electrons, their waves bouncing off both protons, with little action from the slow electrons."

Interfering with itself. Hmm the only way this can happen is if they were like bubbles. What happens is the bubble gets distorted bending back and connecting with itself causing kinetic exchange or a snap back. Sort of like if you punch yourself in your own face.


I've also done the math for this experiment, and calculated the interference pattern for my own setup. Once again, look up quantum superposition, it interferes between the states it could be in, but this is as a wave, not as some "bubble".
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Feb, 2010 03:59 am
@Scottydamion,
Scottydamion;128917 wrote:
It's called Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, and I am more than aware of it, I've done the proof in my physics class.


I guess you assume that I never have?

Scottydamion;128917 wrote:

It is not making things too complicated, this is not a lightbulb that went on inside some theoretical physicist's head, particles have been observed to pop in and out of existence in vacuums, can you explain that with your bubble?


[/COLOR]Yep.

Scottydamion;128917 wrote:

I've also done the math for this experiment, and calculated the interference pattern for my own setup. Once again, look up quantum superposition, it interferes between the states it could be in, but this is as a wave, not as some "bubble".


Define the wave for me then. Is it a wave of the space? What makes up the wave? When I say bubble, you are too fixed on the word bubble to see any relation because you want to use what you know about bubbles but I am only using it as an observation. I've done the math too, and when you get the part where it confirms wave, you stopped right? You just conclude it's obviously a wave. But what actually makes it a wave?

When you see ripples on water or examine the spectrum frequency of light it is only a pattern within the medium. But what is the medium for an electron to be a wave?
Pepijn Sweep
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Feb, 2010 04:08 am
@fast,
I was learned that an electron had a mass of O and a charge the opposite of a positron. Positrons en neutrons form the core of an atom.

Another use of the word electron refers to to (forgotten) mixture of gold/silver used in ancient times. Rember Eureka!:Glasses:
0 Replies
 
Scottydamion
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Feb, 2010 04:18 am
@Krumple,
Krumple;128920 wrote:
I guess you assume that I never have?



[/COLOR]Yep.



Define the wave for me then. Is it a wave of the space? What makes up the wave? When I say bubble, you are too fixed on the word bubble to see any relation because you want to use what you know about bubbles but I am only using it as an observation. I've done the math too, and when you get the part where it confirms wave, you stopped right? You just conclude it's obviously a wave. But what actually makes it a wave?

When you see ripples on water or examine the spectrum frequency of light it is only a pattern within the medium. But what is the medium for an electron to be a wave?


First of all, when you examine any light at all it is through absorbing it, and since you are observing the wave-packet itself, you need no medium.

It is a wave-packet, not a physical wave. Physical waves need a medium because they are the result of a disturbance of that medium. Unless you also want to make up another type of useless aether, the idea of a medium is not necessary.

But also the idea of a bubble is not necessary, the goal is not to state the "real" way things are but to find an accurate concept, accurate in its ability to explain phenomenons observed, but its use is not to tell you what is observed. So if the concept of a wave serves best, then there is no need to replace it with a "bubble", and so far I have yet to see how your bubble analogy could come to terms with wave functions better than the idea of a wave.

---------- Post added 02-16-2010 at 04:20 AM ----------

Pepijn Sweep;128922 wrote:
I was learned that an electron had a mass of O and a charge the opposite of a positron. Positrons en neutrons form the core of an atom.

Another use of the word electron refers to to (forgotten) mixture of gold/silver used in ancient times. Rember Eureka!:Glasses:


Actually, protons and neutrons form the center, positron is a type of anti-particle.
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Feb, 2010 04:53 am
@fast,
This article concerns photons, rather than electrons, and makes the case that photons don't exist, but does say that electrons do.

Science: Do photons really exist? - 20 August 1994 - New Scientist
 

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