1
   

An electron is a posit?

 
 
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Feb, 2010 06:08 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;127976 wrote:

You admit that microbes are mind-independent but then say they are assembled from data from the senses? How could my chair be assembled from an interpretation of data? This is strange stuff. My chair was actually assembled out of plastic, wood, and leather, as far as I know.

We infer objective reality from subjective experience constantly. I'm not denying that the there is mind-independent reality. What I'm saying is that the chair for you, an existing human, is assembled of sense-data and exactly the thoughts you are presenting right now. Your idea of the chair as "real" is exactly the sort of discourse I was talking about. The chair for you is sense-data and your interpretation of it, including what it is assembled from, which you yourself mention in an attempt to contradict what I'm suggesting. A chair for you is sense-data and interpretation. Part of this interpretation is just the concept "chair."

---------- Post added 02-13-2010 at 07:09 PM ----------

Zetherin;127976 wrote:

This is saying almost nothing. Except that if I were dead, I would not be conscious. How this relates to our discussion, I do not know. I find it also strange you wanted to remind me of this.


It's not strange. I think it's strange that you don't see the relevance.

---------- Post added 02-13-2010 at 07:17 PM ----------

Zetherin;127976 wrote:

And here you go again. I can't count how many times you've reiterated this. I consider my knowing that my chair is made of wood, plastic, and leather nothing science related. In fact, it's almost common sense if you glanced at my chair. But if you want to call me a scientific idealist simply because I think that may chair isn't made of sense data, fine by me.

I wish you understood why I repeat such things. How about this nugget: "demystification as mystification." If I question certain "scientific" ideologies, it's because I love science.

Are you saying that your scientific education has not affected your consciousness of the world? Are you saying you know nothing about wood, plastic, or leather? The world-in-itself is revealed to "you" (a complicated concept in itself) by consciousness (a difficult concept also) which is dependent upon your brain (apparently). For the scientific observer to forget his contribution to what he is observing is not ideal perhaps. Observation is participation.

---------- Post added 02-13-2010 at 07:23 PM ----------

Zetherin;127976 wrote:

I'm going to tell my girlfriend tonight that the food she just made is assembled from sense data, and see what kind of loony stare I get.


I know you wanted to be funny here. I can see the humor. But the grammar is misleading here. Why not ask her what her cooking would be like for a blind and deaf man who also could not taste or smell?

No bad feeling here. I consider you a sincere person. Perhaps we've read different books, adopted different styles. No sweat.

---------- Post added 02-13-2010 at 07:26 PM ----------

kennethamy;127997 wrote:
To repeat, he would (of course) see microbes, but he would not see that they were microbes. The distinction between, "seeing" and "seeing that".


It's not that simple. I understand you perfectly but it's not that simple. The question is whether I care enough to explain it. What's in a name? A name refers not just to shapes or sounds or other names, but to a cluster of all of these and more. Your statement above takes too much for granted.
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Feb, 2010 07:09 pm
@fast,
I still claim that my chair is not assembled from sense data. Neither is tonight's dinner.

I'm sorry we disagree. I wish there were some way I could make you believe that the food you eat is really food, and not sense data. Alas, things aren't always so easy.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Feb, 2010 07:15 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;128004 wrote:

It's not that simple. I understand you perfectly but it's not that simple. The question is whether I care enough to explain it. What's in a name? A name refers not just to shapes or sounds or other names, but to a cluster of all of these and more. Your statement above takes too much for granted.


Hmmm. Like what? Seeing that is propositional seeing. It is not the same as just seeing. You can see your friend walking across the street, but you may not see that it is your friend. What is not simple about that? It happens every day.
0 Replies
 
Emil
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Feb, 2010 09:49 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;127991 wrote:
Thank you. I will look more into this.


It is very interesting, I think, I just haven't had time to look into it yet.
0 Replies
 
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Feb, 2010 11:57 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;128023 wrote:
I still claim that my chair is not assembled from sense data. Neither is tonight's dinner.

I'm sorry we disagree. I wish there were some way I could make you believe that the food you eat is really food, and not sense data. Alas, things aren't always so easy.


Silly response. Words, words, words. It's "food." Of course. You seems to have an incorrect conception of my perspective. I encourage you to read just 2 pages of this book, 211 and 212. No, I don't agree with every position in this book by any means, but it's a brilliant book all in all.

Introduction to the reading of Hegel - Google Books
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Feb, 2010 12:35 am
@fast,
The following is from Bertrand Russell's, The Problems of Philosophy:

The way in which simplicity comes in from supposing that there really are physical objects is easily seen. If the cat appears at one moment in one part of the room, and at another in another part, it is natural to suppose that it has moved from the one to the other, passing over a series of intermediate positions. But if it is merely a set of sense-data, it cannot have ever been in any place where I did not see it; thus we shall have to suppose that it did not exist at all while I was not looking, but suddenly sprang into being in a new place. If the cat exists whether I see it or not, we can understand from our own experience how it gets hungry between one meal and the next; but if it does not exist when I am not seeing it, it seems odd that appetite should grow during non-existence as fast as during existence. And if the cat consists only of sense-data, it cannot be hungry, since no hunger but my own can be a sense-datum to me. Thus the behaviour of the sense-data which represent the cat to me, though it seems quite natural when regarded as an expression of hunger, becomes utterly inexplicable when regarded as mere movements and changes of patches of colour, which are as incapable of hunger as a triangle is of playing football.
But the difficulty in the case of the cat is nothing compared to the difficulty in the case of human beings. When human beings speak--that is, when we hear certain noises which we associate with ideas, and simultaneously see certain motions of lips and expressions of face--it is very difficult to suppose that what we hear is not the expression of a thought, as we know it would be if we emitted the same sounds. Of course similar things happen in dreams, where we are mistaken as to the existence of other people. But dreams are more or less suggested by what we call waking life, and are capable of being more or less accounted for on scientific principles if we assume that there really is a physical world. Thus every principle of simplicity urges us to adopt the natural view, that there really are objects other than ourselves and our sense-data which have an existence not dependent upon our perceiving them.
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Feb, 2010 12:53 am
@kennethamy,
Just to stress this point again. I'm no solipsist. There's a world out there. Of course. The issue is the relationship of the perceiver and the perceived. And this is a classic issue in philosophy, for good reasons.

Most of us will agree, I think, that we do not experience objects directly. Our senses give us information from which we construct our personal experience of the objective world (the world-in-itself).

We have nothing but this personal experience of the world. The world is experience personally, individually. But because we are the same species who develop a common language in relation to common needs, we have inferred/conceptually constructed the concept of the world-in-itself.
The world is out there. This is a safe (however unprovable) assumption. But we only experience this world thru human "hardware" and "software." The hardware is our biology. The software is our culture. This is an oversimplification, because the biology/culture dichotomy may be in other contexts deceptive.

No one is required to do hard thinking on this sort of issue. I just happen to enjoy it. It passes the time. You can do just fine in the world without such thought. But I like philosophy. Sometimes "common sense" is a euphemism for prejudice.

---------- Post added 02-14-2010 at 01:54 AM ----------

kennethamy;128003 wrote:
What are all the different meanings of "real"?


I don't think one can make a list, as "real" can always be used in new contexts. I don't conceive of words as static entities.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Feb, 2010 01:07 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;128088 wrote:
Just to stress this point again. I'm no solipsist. There's a world out there. Of course. The issue is the relationship of the perceiver and the perceived. And this is a classic issue in philosophy, for good reasons.

Most of us will agree, I think, that we do not experience objects directly. Our senses give us information from which we construct our personal experience of the objective world (the world-in-itself).

We have nothing but this personal experience of the world. The world is experience personally, individually. But because we are the same species who develop a common language in relation to common needs, we have inferred/conceptually constructed the concept of the world-in-itself.
The world is out there. This is a safe (however unprovable) assumption. But we only experience this world thru human "hardware" and "software." The hardware is our biology. The software is our culture. This is an oversimplification, because the biology/culture dichotomy may be in other contexts deceptive.

No one is required to do hard thinking on this sort of issue. I just happen to enjoy it. It passes the time. You can do just fine in the world without such thought. But I like philosophy. Sometimes "common sense" is a euphemism for prejudice.

---------- Post added 02-14-2010 at 01:54 AM ----------



I don't think one can make a list, as "real" can always be used in new contexts. I don't conceive of words as static entities.


Suppose I am in the desert and someone points to a place in the distance and asks, "Is that oasis real, or is it a mirage?". (That's the context). Is there more than one meaning of "real" in that sentence. If so, what are they?
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Feb, 2010 01:15 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;128099 wrote:
Suppose I am in the desert and someone points to a place in the distance and asks, "Is that oasis real, or is it a mirage?". (That's the context). Is there more than one meaning of "real" in that sentence. If so, what are they?


I think it's pretty clear in that sentence. A thirsty man has a taste for water, not philosophy. A man flying overhead in a private jet might say "Is that man's experience of that mirage real?" (We'll have to assume he's heard the man's question by means of a listening device and that his aerial view assures him that there is no oasis nearby.)
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Feb, 2010 01:37 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;128102 wrote:
I think it's pretty clear in that sentence. A thirsty man has a taste for water, not philosophy. A man flying overhead in a private jet might say "Is that man's experience of that mirage real?" (We'll have to assume he's heard the man's question by means of a listening device and that his aerial view assures him that there is no oasis nearby.)


His experience of the mirage is a real experience. But what has that to do with it? The question is, what several things does he mean when he asks whether what he think is a oasis is real?
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Feb, 2010 05:48 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;127630 wrote:
It is a posit in the sense it is posited to explain what we observe. But that's all right. To quote Quine, "to posit is not to patronize". Electrons exist. And, "exist" is univocal. I think you are asking whether electrons "really"exist. Let me quell your anxiety. They do.


Well then, do they exist as a wave, or as a particle?

Because based on our observation of phenomena on the macro scale, it is impossible to imagine how something can exist as both.

---------- Post added 02-15-2010 at 11:10 AM ----------

Also - is a necessary attribute of anything that exists that it is distinguishable from anything else? This would seem to be implied by the particle 'ex-' which is taken from 'apart from' or 'outside' (as in external). So I would have thought that 'to exist' is 'to be distinguishable from anything else'. This is linked to the idea of 'identity' - so that existing things have an identity (even if they are nondescript, like grains of sand or snowflakes, they are all different). Is there any class of item in the perceivable world which can be said to be absoultely indistiguisable from all of the other members of that class?

Accordingly, are electrons (and photons, for that matter) individually distinguishable? And if they are not distinguishable, how can they be said to exist, at least in the way we understand and use the word 'exist' in regards to anything we can see?

Richard Feynmann did suggest that there is 'only one electron' in the Universe. Was this related to this idea?
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Feb, 2010 06:11 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;128243 wrote:
Well then, do they exist as a wave, or as a particle?

Because based on our observation of phenomena on the macro scale, it is impossible to imagine how something can exist as both.


I don't know whether they are waves or particles. That's a question for quantum theorists, not philosophers.
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Feb, 2010 06:13 pm
@fast,
then why are you so confident that they can be said to exist? Is it because we have been told they do, by physicists, and they are part of 'the standard model' of matter?
Emil
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Feb, 2010 06:15 pm
@fast,
If anyone knows of any good work on the issue of scientific instrumentalism (either pro or for or neutral or somewhat in between) that is on the internet in a pdf format, let me know. Especially if you can send me the book.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Feb, 2010 06:16 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;128254 wrote:
then why are you so confident that they can be said to exist? Is it because we have been told they do, by physicists, and they are part of 'the standard model' of matter?


Yes. That's an excellent reason, it seems to me. Especially since I have no other source of information. And, I suppose, neither have you.
0 Replies
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Feb, 2010 06:26 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;128252 wrote:
I don't know whether they are waves or particles. That's a question for quantum theorists, not philosophers.


I think is to fundamental a Q. to leave to scientia.
0 Replies
 
ACB
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Feb, 2010 06:27 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;128252 wrote:
I don't know whether they are waves or particles. That's a question for quantum theorists, not philosophers.


But here are two philosophical questions arising from the 'one-electron universe' hypothesis:

1. Is it true that no physical object can be in more than one place at the same time?

2. If it is true, do we know this a priori?
Amperage
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Feb, 2010 06:32 pm
@Emil,
Emil;128255 wrote:
If anyone knows of any good work on the issue of scientific instrumentalism (either pro or for or neutral or somewhat in between) that is on the internet in a pdf format, let me know. Especially if you can send me the book.
I know nothing specific per say about instrmentalism other than I know it exists as a school of thought(a school of thought that holds merit in my book) but here's a couple things you can read which kind of contrasts realism, with instrmentalism:

http://psychology.uchicago.edu/people/faculty/cacioppo/jtcreprints/csb04.pdf

http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/mds26/files/Sprevak---Realism%20and%20Instrumentalism.pdf

You'll see the main thread of instrmentalism is this:
Quote:
According to scientific instrumentalism, the aim of scientific theories is not to discover truth but rather to produce intellectual structures that provide adequate predictions of what is observed and useful frameworks for answering questions and solving problems in a given domain. From this philosophical perspective, scientific theory represents convenient intellectual structures for predicting or describing in more abstract terms observable data, not actual structures in the world.
Quote:
Instrumentalists argues that many theories are instrumentally useful yet false. Ptolemaic astronomy, which posited celestial spheres, makes many true predictions, but is nevertheless false. Churchland claims that as science develops, beliefs and desires will go the way celestial spheres have gone.
The points being that science yields useful models for prediction not necessarily truths about "what's out there"; only how "what's out there" behaves.


Quote:
In philosophy of science, the other view which is highly successful in accounting for scientific knowledge is the instrumentalist view. On this account, only the results of the experiments are viewed as being real. That is, the experimental observations themselves, void of any interpretation, constitute the only brute facts of nature. Whatever interpretation, or scientific theory, we construct later on is just a tool to explain the experimental observations. For example, in the context of Millikan's experiment, the 'electron' is an inferred entity from the experiments. An electron is simply a tool for understanding why the total charge in the oil drop changed by an integer multiple of a fundamental quantity, namely e. In this context, instrumentalists remain agnostic as to the existence of an electron. For them, the only thing that exists is the experimental observation not the theoretical constructs that are devised later to help us comprehend what is observed. Hence, on this view, experiments cannot answer those nettling questions in ontology of what exits. They can only provide us with data from which we can construct a cognitive map which we use to understand the physical world.
emphasis mine, source:http://online.physics.uiuc.edu/courses/phys419/spring10/lectures/l1.pdf
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Feb, 2010 06:33 pm
@ACB,
ACB;128261 wrote:
But here are two philosophical questions arising from the 'one-electron universe' hypothesis:

1. Is it true that no physical object can be in more than one place at the same time?

2. If it is true, do we know this a priori?


If there is just one electron, why do those questions arise? Although, for all I know, they do arise, since I don't know anything about that hypothesis.
0 Replies
 
Emil
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Feb, 2010 06:47 pm
@ACB,
ACB;128261 wrote:
But here are two philosophical questions arising from the 'one-electron universe' hypothesis:

1. Is it true that no physical object can be in more than one place at the same time?

2. If it is true, do we know this a priori?


I read a book recently that dealt with this. Perhaps you should give the relevant section a read?

Norman Swartz, Beyond Experience, 1991 (2001 second edition), chapter 8 (see especially section 8.8). "Beyond Experience: Metaphysical Theories and Philosophical Constraints", by Norman Swartz
0 Replies
 
 

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