@Zetherin,
Zetherin;127976 wrote:
You admit that microbes are mind-independent but then say they are assembled from data from the senses? How could my chair be assembled from an interpretation of data? This is strange stuff. My chair was actually assembled out of plastic, wood, and leather, as far as I know.
We infer objective reality from subjective experience
constantly. I'm not denying that the there is mind-independent reality. What I'm saying is that the chair for you, an existing human, is assembled of sense-data
and exactly the thoughts you are presenting right now. Your idea of the chair as "real" is exactly the sort of discourse I was talking about. The chair for you is sense-data and your interpretation of it, including what it is assembled from, which you yourself mention in an attempt to contradict what I'm suggesting. A chair
for you is sense-data and interpretation. Part of this interpretation is just the concept "chair."
---------- Post added 02-13-2010 at 07:09 PM ----------
Zetherin;127976 wrote:
This is saying almost nothing. Except that if I were dead, I would not be conscious. How this relates to our discussion, I do not know. I find it also strange you wanted to remind me of this.
It's not strange. I think it's strange that you don't see the relevance.
---------- Post added 02-13-2010 at 07:17 PM ----------
Zetherin;127976 wrote:
And here you go again. I can't count how many times you've reiterated this. I consider my knowing that my chair is made of wood, plastic, and leather nothing science related. In fact, it's almost common sense if you glanced at my chair. But if you want to call me a scientific idealist simply because I think that may chair isn't made of sense data, fine by me.
I wish you understood
why I repeat such things. How about this nugget: "demystification as mystification." If I question certain "scientific" ideologies, it's because I love science.
Are you saying that your scientific education has not affected your consciousness of the world? Are you saying you know nothing about wood, plastic, or leather? The world-in-itself is revealed to "you" (a complicated concept in itself) by consciousness (a difficult concept also) which is dependent upon your brain (apparently). For the scientific observer to forget his contribution to what he is observing is not ideal perhaps. Observation is participation.
---------- Post added 02-13-2010 at 07:23 PM ----------
Zetherin;127976 wrote:
I'm going to tell my girlfriend tonight that the food she just made is assembled from sense data, and see what kind of loony stare I get.
I know you wanted to be funny here. I can see the humor. But the grammar is misleading here. Why not ask her what her cooking would be like for a blind and deaf man who also could not taste or smell?
No bad feeling here. I consider you a sincere person. Perhaps we've read different books, adopted different styles. No sweat.
---------- Post added 02-13-2010 at 07:26 PM ----------
kennethamy;127997 wrote:To repeat, he would (of course) see microbes, but he would not see that they were microbes. The distinction between, "seeing" and "seeing that".
It's not that simple. I understand you perfectly but it's not that simple. The question is whether I care enough to explain it. What's in a name? A name refers not just to shapes or sounds or other names, but to a cluster of all of these and more. Your statement above takes too much for granted.