1
   

An electron is a posit?

 
 
Amperage
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Feb, 2010 04:42 pm
@fast,
fast;127670 wrote:
I think you're confusing the explanation with what the explanation is an explanation of.

I don't know if scientists have directly observed electrons, but they are apparently able to directly observe their effects through instrumentation.
well yeah that's what I'm saying. So they created a model to explain the effects. The model works(in most cases) but does not say anything about what the objects are. Only how they behave
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Feb, 2010 04:47 pm
@fast,
fast;127666 wrote:

You mean theoretical, right? Hypothetical implies that they don't exist, right? To say of an entity that it's theoretical doesn't have the same implications of what it would be to say of an entity that it's hypothetical, I think.

PS: Oops. I just noticed you said neutrinos. I don't know how much difference it makes though, as I don't know much about 'em.
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Feb, 2010 04:48 pm
@fast,
fast;127670 wrote:
I think you're confusing the explanation with what the explanation is an explanation of.

I don't know if scientists have directly observed electrons, but they are apparently able to directly observe their effects through instrumentation.


Electrons are not models. No more than chairs are models. Model of what? Of course, scientists can observe the effect of electrons. Unless they did, they would not posit electrons to explain those effects. In this way, God is a posit. As Aquinas says, we suppose the invisible God to explain the visible universe.
fast
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Feb, 2010 04:54 pm
@kennethamy,
[QUOTE=kennethamy;127668]I never said that chairs were posits. I said that just a chairs exist, so to electrons. Of course, posits are different from non-posits. Posits are explanatory entites, Non-posits are not. Posits are unobservables, and non-posits are not. Extraterrestrials, if they exist, would not be posits. I have more doubt that there are extraterrestrials than I do that there are electrons. A lot more doubt. Don't you?[/quote]
Thank you for that clarification.

I don't rightly know what an explanatory entity is, and to call an electron unobservable is problematic for some people since electrons can be directly observed (through instrumentation). For example, the Cathode Ray Experiment demonstrates that electrons exist--or so it's said.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Feb, 2010 04:54 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;127675 wrote:
Electrons are not models. No more than chairs are models. Model of what? Of course, scientists can observe the effect of electrons. Unless they did, they would not posit electrons to explain those effects. In this way, God is a posit. As Aquinas says, we suppose the invisible God to explain the visible universe.
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Feb, 2010 05:03 pm
@fast,
fast;127677 wrote:

Thank you for that clarification.

I don't rightly know what an explanatory entity is, and to call an electron unobservable is problematic for some people since electrons can be directly observed (through instrumentation). For example, the Cathode Ray Experiment demonstrates that electrons exist--or so it's said.


Experiments establish the existence of electrons, or rather, electron theory. But there is not direct observation of electrons. They are not only unobserved, but unobservable, since electrons are required in order to make observations. I don't understand what you mean by electrons can be directly observed through instrumentation. You mean like microbes as be observed through a microscope. I think that large molecules can be observed with electron microscopes, but not individual electrons. Explanatory entities are exactly that. They are posited to explain what we directly observe.
0 Replies
 
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Feb, 2010 11:55 pm
@fast,
To posit:
To assume the existence of, a postulate, a conceptual explanation

An electron is a posit. Now what are the properties of an electron.
It is not a point particle, or an entity which follow the laws of classical (Newtonian) mechanics. It is not the inert, insensate, point particle of the mechanistic deterministic form of materialism. Something quite different entirely, something quite fascinating. A collapsed probability waveform, A particle and a wave at the same time, it moves from one orbit to another without passing through the space and time between orbits. Something which can really only be described as a mathematical formula. The modern notion of an electron is not the same as the earlier conception. It is not matter in the traditional sense of the term.

kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Feb, 2010 04:06 am
@prothero,
prothero;127772 wrote:
To posit:
To assume the existence of, a postulate, a conceptual explanation

An electron is a posit. Now what are the properties of an electron.
It is not a point particle, or an entity which follow the laws of classical (Newtonian) mechanics. It is not the inert, insensate, point particle of the mechanistic deterministic form of materialism. Something quite different entirely, something quite fascinating. A collapsed probability waveform, A particle and a wave at the same time, it moves from one orbit to another without passing through the space and time between orbits. Something which can really only be described as a mathematical formula. The modern notion of an electron is not the same as the earlier conception. It is not matter in the traditional sense of the term.



Yes, I mostly agree. But what has that to do with what it means for the electron to be a posit, which is, after all, the point of the OP?
0 Replies
 
fast
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Feb, 2010 11:34 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;127675 wrote:
Electrons are not models. No more than chairs are models. Model of what? Of course, scientists can observe the effect of electrons. Unless they did, they would not posit electrons to explain those effects. In this way, God is a posit. As Aquinas says, we suppose the invisible God to explain the visible universe.

I didn't say that electrons are models. I didn't imply that electrons are models. Electrons are not models.

---------- Post added 02-13-2010 at 12:38 PM ----------

kennethamy;127680 wrote:
Experiments establish the existence of electrons, or rather, electron theory. But there is not direct observation of electrons. They are not only unobserved, but unobservable, since electrons are required in order to make observations. I don't understand what you mean by electrons can be directly observed through instrumentation. You mean like microbes as be observed through a microscope. I think that large molecules can be observed with electron microscopes, but not individual electrons. Explanatory entities are exactly that. They are posited to explain what we directly observe.


This clears it up for me.

---------- Post added 02-13-2010 at 01:59 PM ----------

A rewrite of what I've learned:

The following is further clarification about what posits are. For one, posits are explanatory entities, and for two, they are unobservables. An explanatory entity is an entity that is posited to explain what we directly observe. An unobservable entity is not merely an entity that is unobserved but unobservable as well. Non-posits are neither explanatory entities nor unobservables.

Scientific experiments including but not limited to the Cathode Ray Experiment have established the fact that electrons exist, or at the very least, it has contributed greatly to electron theory, but I must insist (until I'm proven wrong) that electrons are unobservable. Yes, we can observe some rather small stuff (like microbes and molecules) through instruments available in scientific labs, but because electrons themselves are required in order to make observations, we cannot observe electrons.
0 Replies
 
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Feb, 2010 04:00 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;127641 wrote:
Yes. So was that what you were asking? If not, then what?
They are? You mean we can't see them? But their effect can be observed on graphs. For a long time, we could not see germs or microbes either. But they were not made of words and numbers.


Before we could see microbes, they were made of words. Now they are made of words, numbers, and pictures. Are they "really" there? Sure. But how to they exist for us? The concrete real is reveal by discourse. To contemplate an object in isolation from the perceiving subject is to yank out or abstract the object. The abstraction of natural science has been extremely useful in a practical sense. This usefulness has inspired an ideology of such abstraction. Humans are so used to pretending that objects exist in isolation that they forget that much of what they experience as the object is discourse.

If a man with no education concerning microbes were to simply see them through a microscope, he would not see the same microbes we do. Our experience of microbes is not divorced from our conceptions of microbes, which evolved historically. The concrete real implies history, as the human species had to evolve language and the scientific method and telescopes before these microbes could exist as they do for us. To imagine them independent of an observer is a complicated abstraction that also implies history, as well as a living human being's imagination.
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Feb, 2010 04:05 pm
@fast,
Reconstructo wrote:
Before we could see microbes, they were made of words


You can't mean this literally. Microbes never were made of words.

Quote:
If a man with no education concerning microbes were to simply see them through a microscope, he would not see the same microbes we do.


Of course he would. He may not know what he is seeing, but he would be seeing the same thing a scientist that knows what he's seeing would see. If someone shows me a laptop, and yet I don't know what laptops are, I would still be seeing the same laptop as the person who showed me. You think that if we do not have knowledge of what something is, that when we see said something, we see something different than what someone who knows what they're seeing would see? You can't be serious.
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Feb, 2010 04:23 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;127968 wrote:
You can't mean this literally. Microbes never were made of words.

Of course he would. He may not know what he is seeing, but he would be seeing the same thing a scientist that knows what he's seeing would see. If someone shows me a laptop, and yet I don't know what laptops are, I would still be seeing the same laptop as the person who showed me. You think that if we do not have knowledge of what something is, that when we see said something, we see something different than what someone else would see that knows what that something is? You can't be serious.


I think you are simply failing to see my point. Your own discourse on the matter implies history. You were taught that there was one reality, independent of human perception. In the practical sense, this is "true."

Do you know Kant? Our mind structures sensations, and perception in general. Human reality is as lingual as it is sensual. Our language-use further structures perception. We don't just see a piece of light in the night sky. We see a star. And we know what stars "are." (What they are for us). Microbes are assembled from data from the senses and the interpretation of this data. Is it reasonable to assume that they are there without us? Yes, it is. But is it reasonable to forget that our experience of them is conditioned by human sensation and human interpretation? No, it isn't. It's an example of the ideology of physical science over-running its boundaries. Your brain is locked up in your skull, quite literally. You experience of these microbes is mediated You don't experience these microbes in themselves. Devoid of consciousness and culture, they would not exist for you, as they do not exist for the dead.

Existence is a human concept. All of our experience is human experience. Yes, this human brain evolved to survive and reproduce in an environment. It's good, generally, at seeing what's important for human survival. But we only see some light-frequencies, and not others. Dogs have much better noses. Eagles have better eyes. Our advantage is the neocortex, and the mastery of abstraction. Unfortunately, we can get so good at abstraction that we take these abstractions for reality. We imagine a reality without us until we forget that the brain is the foundation of this reality. Is Nature the foundation of the human brain? It seems to be. We have a Meobius strip here. But for individual humans, the brain is the foundation of existence. That's why we don't expect dead folks to answer questions, or care about the weather.

Scientific ideology pretends to a certain skepticism, but tends to inspire a sort of dogmatic resistance to any questioning of its axioms.
0 Replies
 
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Feb, 2010 04:38 pm
@fast,
Reconstructo wrote:
You experience of these microbes is mediated


I still don't understand why you think the way you do.

Just because:

Quote:
our experience of them is conditioned by human sensation and human interpretation


doesn't mean that what we experience isn't real, or is less real in some way. That's the mistake you're making. That because we experience the world with our human senses, we are not experiencing what is real. This is false.

Quote:
You don't experience these microbes in themselves.


Think about what you're saying. What would experiencing the microbes in themselves even mean? I don't think you even know. But if you do, please explain to me.

Quote:
Microbes are assembled from data from the senses and the interpretation of this data.


You admit that microbes are mind-independent but then say they are assembled from data from the senses? How could my chair be assembled from an interpretation of data? This is strange stuff. My chair was actually assembled out of plastic, wood, and leather, as far as I know.

Are these the beliefs of some sort of mysticism? That's fine, I just hope you let me know what I'm dealing with here.

Quote:
Devoid of consciousness and culture, they would not exist for you, as they do not exist for the dead.


This is saying almost nothing. Except that if I were dead, I would not be conscious. How this relates to our discussion, I do not know. I find it also strange you wanted to remind me of this.

Quote:
Scientific ideology pretends to a certain skepticism, but tends to inspire a sort of dogmatic resistance to any questioning of its axioms.


And here you go again. I can't count how many times you've reiterated this. I consider my knowing that my chair is made of wood, plastic, and leather nothing science related. In fact, it's almost common sense if you glanced at my chair. But if you want to call me a scientific idealist simply because I think that may chair isn't made of sense data, fine by me.

I'm going to tell my girlfriend tonight that the food she just made is assembled from sense data, and see what kind of loony stare I get.
Emil
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Feb, 2010 05:11 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;127630 wrote:
It is a posit in the sense it is posited to explain what we observe. But that's all right. To quote Quine, "to posit is not to patronize". Electrons exist. And, "exist" is univocal. I think you are asking whether electrons "really"exist. Let me quell your anxiety. They do.


I'm not sure if scientific non-realists deny the existence of electrons. Do you know?
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Feb, 2010 05:27 pm
@Emil,
Emil;127985 wrote:
I'm not sure if scientific non-realists deny the existence of electrons. Do you know?


A scientist non-realist? I didn't even know those existed. Science, I thought, deals only with the real.
Amperage
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Feb, 2010 05:29 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;127987 wrote:
A scientist non-realist? I didn't even know those existed. Science, I thought, deals only with the real.
In one sense they do, in another, they may not.

See Instrumentalism.

Quote:
In the philosophy of science, instrumentalism is the view that a concept or theory should be evaluated by how effectively it explains and predicts phenomena, as opposed to how accurately it describes objective reality.
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Feb, 2010 05:34 pm
@Amperage,
Amperage;127988 wrote:
In one sense they do, in another, they may not.

See Instrumentalism.


Thank you. I will look more into this.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Feb, 2010 05:44 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;127966 wrote:
Before we could see microbes, they were made of words. Now they are made of words, numbers, and pictures. Are they "really" there? Sure. But how to they exist for us? The concrete real is reveal by discourse. To contemplate an object in isolation from the perceiving subject is to yank out or abstract the object. The abstraction of natural science has been extremely useful in a practical sense. This usefulness has inspired an ideology of such abstraction. Humans are so used to pretending that objects exist in isolation that they forget that much of what they experience as the object is discourse.

If a man with no education concerning microbes were to simply see them through a microscope, he would not see the same microbes we do. Our experience of microbes is not divorced from our conceptions of microbes, which evolved historically. The concrete real implies history, as the human species had to evolve language and the scientific method and telescopes before these microbes could exist as they do for us. To imagine them independent of an observer is a complicated abstraction that also implies history, as well as a living human being's imagination.


Microbes were made of words before we could see them. What were they made of after we saw them? Smoke-signals?

If a man of no education were to look at microbes through a microscope, he would see exactly what anyone who looked through that microscope. But, unless he knew what he was looking at, he would not see that what he saw were microbes. To repeat, he would (of course) see microbes, but he would not see that they were microbes. The distinction between, "seeing" and "seeing that".
0 Replies
 
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Feb, 2010 05:56 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;127976 wrote:

doesn't mean that what we experience isn't real, or is less real in some way. That's the mistake you're making. That because we experience the world with our human senses, we are not experiencing what is real. This is false.


I never said it wasn't real. I said that the concrete real is revealed by discourse. On top of that: "real" is a word. It doesn't have some absolute meaning but only varieties of use.

---------- Post added 02-13-2010 at 07:00 PM ----------

Zetherin;127976 wrote:

Think about what you're saying. What would experiencing the microbes in themselves even mean? I don't think you even know. But if you do, please explain to me.


That's my point, man. We cannot experience them in themselves. The Thing-in-itself concept has been famous at least since Kant. Noumenon. Noumenon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Kant used it as a limiting concept. I certainly know what I mean by it. It's old news, man. I didn't cook it up. Sure, one can criticize it just as Fichte and Hegel did. That's fine. Still, it's not that strange really.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Feb, 2010 06:02 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;128000 wrote:
I never said it wasn't real. I said that the concrete real is revealed by discourse. On top of that: "real" is a word. It doesn't have some absolute meaning but only varieties of use.


I agree that "real" is a word. Who would not? I don't know what the first sentence means. I am not sure what the third sentence comes to, either, since I don't know what an absolute meaning is. Do you just mean, "the only meaning"? That there are other meanings? Well, that may be true. What are all the different meanings of "real"?
0 Replies
 
 

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