1
   

An electron is a posit?

 
 
Scottydamion
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Feb, 2010 10:01 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;129205 wrote:
If a computer became conscious, eh? Sounds easy, but it isn't. This is the general area of Artificial Intelligence, which sounded quite plausible in 1980 and now looks remote. Why? Because computers lack common sense. Common sense might sound common but computers ain't got it.


Does a baby have common sense? Now do you see where I'm going with this?

Quote:
The brain is not a computer, and the mind is greater than the brain (there are many on this forum and others who will challenge both these statements). From what we know, the brain only ever operates in the context of a living body, and a living body only ever operates in an environment. All of these are inter-dependent and mutually define and re-inforce each other. It is a huge fascinating study in areas such as cognition, systems theory and even deep environmentalism.

now - do electrons exist?


How about this, an artificial brain only ever operates inside of an artificial living body, and an artificial living body only operates in an environment. All of these are inter-dependent...

If we can design the body and brain can we not simulate a body to the artificial brain? All I'm doing is taking that concept and applying it to what we consider a non-artificial body and brain and environment.

I agree that we need sensory input from an environment, but the point is where all of that information goes.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Feb, 2010 10:23 pm
@fast,
But we cannot - absolutely, totally cannot - build an artificial body and brain. It is one of the absurd fantasies of modernity. The more you look into how the brain works, the more mysterious it is. It is nothing like a computer. It is no more feasible than going faster than light or colonizing another planet. Ain't gonna happen. Have a look at What Computers Can't Do - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Feb, 2010 11:12 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;129193 wrote:
I believe fast means that organs are not the things experiencing. We are the things that experience with the organs (for instance, eyes).

We must make the distinction between the mind and the brain. Neurologists make the mistake of not doing this all the time, from what I hear. Someone made a thread about this not too long ago and called it the neurological fallacy - to mistake the mind for the brain.


I completely agree with this distinction. But when talking to the scientistic, I tend to refer to the brain, as the word "mind" is too frightfully metaphysical, For some folks, anyhow.

---------- Post added 02-17-2010 at 12:15 AM ----------

Zetherin;129193 wrote:
We are the things that experience with the organs (for instance, eyes).


I agree. And deciding what this "We" is leads us to metaphysics. This is what I mean by the "real is revealed by discourse." For this "we" is a piece of human discourse. Kant's philosophy is a piece of human discourse. And those who read it see the concrete real (which only means the total experience real) in a new way. Even positivism, which pretends to oppose metaphysics, is obviously a "Hegelian" revelation of the real by discourse.

---------- Post added 02-17-2010 at 12:18 AM ----------

Scottydamion;129209 wrote:

I agree that we need sensory input from an environment, but the point is where all of that information goes.


This takes us to the question of consciousness which is (seems to me) equivalent to "pure being" or "indeterminate nothingness."

I have programmed computers. They are nothing but glorified super-refined abacuses. Nothing but networked on-and-off switches.

Consciousness remains a mystery that isn't even easily expressed. The concept of consciousness is an object of consciousness. Being and consciousness are borderline ineffable. You have to cross out the word that refers to them to remind yourself that the concept is not the referent.

---------- Post added 02-17-2010 at 12:21 AM ----------

Scottydamion;129191 wrote:
So what is the difference between "I" and one's "brain"?


Good issue. The brain is an object for the I, a pronoun for this mysterious notion of the subject. But the subject is apparently grounded in the brain. It's a Moebius strip. The self is seemingly (upon consideration) just an ideal unity, a useful fiction. The I is related to the object body in a social sense. Lacan speculated about a mirror-phase of development, where humans learn to see themselves as atomic, individual, singular selves.

Wittgenstein talks in the Tractatus about this issue. The self is the limit of the world. This connects to Heidegger's Being and consciousness in general.

---------- Post added 02-17-2010 at 12:24 AM ----------

jeeprs;129205 wrote:
If a computer became conscious, eh? Sounds easy, but it isn't. This is the general area of Artificial Intelligence, which sounded quite plausible in 1980 and now looks remote. Why? Because computers lack common sense. Common sense might sound common but computers ain't got it.

I agree. But I would say that "common sense" is less of a problem than consciousness. If intelligence is defined in a certain ways, computers could be given it. But true Artificial Intelligence, the more impressive kind, would be computers coming alive. Right? Because Google is already a clever machine in its way. But intelligent life is hard to conceive of without consciousness, Being that discloses beings for a subject.
0 Replies
 
Scottydamion
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Feb, 2010 11:57 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;129217 wrote:
But we cannot - absolutely, totally cannot - build an artificial body and brain. It is one of the absurd fantasies of modernity. The more you look into how the brain works, the more mysterious it is. It is nothing like a computer. It is no more feasible than going faster than light or colonizing another planet. Ain't gonna happen. Have a look at What Computers Can't Do - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


You are confusing the idea of a computer and an artificial brain. With further understanding of how the brain forms it may be possible to make an artificial one. This is not the same as a computer which takes a certain input and dishes out a corresponding output.

The one thing you did not address was: does a baby have common sense?

If our intuitions are the result of the architecture of our brain combined with our experiences, then it may be possible to understand and recreate that architecture, to make a "baby" brain that would be able to learn common sense just as a baby learns not to touch the stove.
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Feb, 2010 12:05 am
@fast,
If we are going to talk about A.I., we should define it more carefully. Because this seems to make all the difference. Does A.I. imply consciousness or not? Either way is reasonable, but it makes quite a difference.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Feb, 2010 12:11 am
@Scottydamion,
Scottydamion;129250 wrote:
.

The one thing you did not address was: does a baby have common sense?



No.

Juvenile anacondas and great white sharks are born in the water and immediately begin to feed. Juvenile antelopes and horses can move about on four legs as soon as they are born, and canter within hours. Juvenile chimps and many other primates are able to cling to their mothers while the mothers are moving about.

Juvenile H Sapiens are totally helpless and cannot grip, move about, feed themselves, and are completely dependent upon their mother for at least the first year and not completely independent until adolescence. There is a reason for that.

As to the 'artificial intelligence' idea, have a look at the Wikipedia link I provided. I am saying, it is a scientific fantasy.

Here's a teaser: what is the most complex known single thing in the entire cosmos, that we are aware of?
Scottydamion
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Feb, 2010 12:20 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;129258 wrote:
No.

Juvenile anacondas and great white sharks are born in the water and immediately begin to feed. Juvenile antelopes and horses can move about on four legs as soon as they are born, and canter within hours. Juvenile chimps and many other primates are able to cling to their mothers while the mothers are moving about.

Juvenile H Sapiens are totally helpless and cannot grip, move about, feed themselves, and are completely dependent upon their mother for at least the first year and not completely independent until adolescence. There is a reason for that.

As to the 'artificial intelligence' idea, have a look at the Wikipedia link I provided. I am saying, it is a scientific fantasy.

Here's a teaser: what is the most complex known single thing in the entire cosmos, that we are aware of?


This is not completely true, babies have the natural ability to swim for a time after they are born. If you look at it from an evolutionary perspective, you see two distinct and advantageous parts of the brain. You see the "hard-wired" instincts (like touching something hot is bad, even if you have to touch it first for this instinct to kick in), and you see our ability to learn, the "soft-wired" part.

I understand that currently it is a scientific fantasy, but that does not mean that it is impossible to understand and recreate.

I answer your teaser with "life". For the structures that allowed us to come to this point in evolution are far more complex than the ability to learn itself.

---------- Post added 02-17-2010 at 12:22 AM ----------

Reconstructo;129257 wrote:
If we are going to talk about A.I., we should define it more carefully. Because this seems to make all the difference. Does A.I. imply consciousness or not? Either way is reasonable, but it makes quite a difference.


I would define it as the ability to learn in a way that comes close to ours. I would think this implies consciousness, but I may be wrong, consciousness could stem from our ability to learn instead of the other way around.
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Feb, 2010 12:34 am
@Scottydamion,
Scottydamion;129259 wrote:

I would define it as the ability to learn in a way that comes close to ours. I would think this implies consciousness, but I may be wrong, consciousness could stem from our ability to learn instead of the other way around.


I don't think the ability to learn requires consciousness, in some sense of the word "learn." But it's hard for me to conceive of consciousness stemming from this same ability to learn.

It may be too off the point of this thread, but I would like to hear your conception/description of consciousness at some point.
Scottydamion
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Feb, 2010 12:42 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;129263 wrote:
I don't think the ability to learn requires consciousness, in some sense of the word "learn." But it's hard for me to conceive of consciousness stemming from this same ability to learn.

It may be too off the point of this thread, but I would like to hear your conception/description of consciousness at some point.


Well the basic thing I find interesting is that we are constantly trying to satisfy something or another. We want to be content, we want to have food, we want to have friends, etc... and to me it seems like a conscious reaction (a soft-wired response) to a subconsious desire (a hard-wired impulse).

When you look at types of mental disabilities for example, such as autism for example, there is a different set of desires and this manifests in a different set of conscious reactions.

I think this is hard to see in today's day and age where people have all the food, water, and shelter they need (where I live anyway). But look at stories of people stranded, struggling to survive, and you see these basics desires become manifest in a much more tangible way.
0 Replies
 
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Feb, 2010 01:24 am
@fast,
This is back on the topic of electrons, but it also touches at the end upon psychology. This is Kojeve on what he calls vulgar science, as contrasted with a concrete or total science. I'm not saying that a total science is actually possible, but the ideal of it is far superior to the reduced ambitions of vulgar science. (My opinion.)

Vulgar science.....is carried out by a Subject who pretends to be independent of the Object, and it is supposed to reveal the Object which exists independently of the Subject. Now in actual fact the experience is had by a man who lives within Nature and is indissolubly bound to it, but is also opposed to it and wants to transform it: science is born from the desire to transform the World in relation to Man; its final end is technical application. That is why scientific knowledge is never absolutely passive, nor purely contemplative and descriptive. Scientific experience perturbs the Object because of the active intervention of the Subject, who applies to the Object a method of investigation that is his own and to which nothing in the Object itself corresponds. What it reveals, therefore, is neither the Object taken independently of the Subject, nor the Subject taken independently of the Object, but only the result of the interaction of the two or, if you like, that interaction itself. However, scientific experience and knowledge are concerned with the Object as independent of and isolated from the Subject. Hence they do not find what they are looking for; they do not give what they promise, for they do not correctly reveal or describe what the Real is for them.

Generally speaking Truth ( = revealed Reality) is the coincidence of thought or descriptive knowledge with the concrete real. Now, for vulgar science, this real is supposed to be independent of the thought which describes it. But in fact this science never attains this autonomous real, this "thing in itself" of Kant-Newton, because it incessantly perturbs it. Hence scientific thought does not attain its truth; there is no scientific truth in the strong and proper sense of the term. Scientific experience is thus only a pseudo-experience. And it cannot be otherwise, for vulgar science is in fact concerned not with the concrete real, but with an abstraction.

To the extent that the scientist thinks or knows his object, what really and concretely exists is the entirety of the Object known by the Subject or of the Subject knowing the Object. The isolated Object is but an abstraction, and that is why it has no fixed and stable continuity (Bestehen) and is perpetually deformed or perturbed. Therefore it cannot serve as a basis for a Truth, which by definition is universally and eternally valid. And the same goes for the "object" of vulgar psychology, gnoseology, and philosophy, which is the Subject artificially isolated from the Object - i.e., yet another abstraction.
Scottydamion
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Feb, 2010 01:46 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;129272 wrote:
This is back on the topic of electrons, but it also touches at the end upon psychology. This is Kojeve on what he calls vulgar science, as contrasted with a concrete or total science. I'm not saying that a total science is actually possible, but the ideal of it is far superior to the reduced ambitions of vulgar science. (My opinion.)

Vulgar science.....is carried out by a Subject who pretends to be independent of the Object, and it is supposed to reveal the Object which exists independently of the Subject. Now in actual fact the experience is had by a man who lives within Nature and is indissolubly bound to it, but is also opposed to it and wants to transform it: science is born from the desire to transform the World in relation to Man; its final end is technical application. That is why scientific knowledge is never absolutely passive, nor purely contemplative and descriptive. Scientific experience perturbs the Object because of the active intervention of the Subject, who applies to the Object a method of investigation that is his own and to which nothing in the Object itself corresponds. What it reveals, therefore, is neither the Object taken independently of the Subject, nor the Subject taken independently of the Object, but only the result of the interaction of the two or, if you like, that interaction itself. However, scientific experience and knowledge are concerned with the Object as independent of and isolated from the Subject. Hence they do not find what they are looking for; they do not give what they promise, for they do not correctly reveal or describe what the Real is for them.

Generally speaking Truth ( = revealed Reality) is the coincidence of thought or descriptive knowledge with the concrete real. Now, for vulgar science, this real is supposed to be independent of the thought which describes it. But in fact this science never attains this autonomous real, this "thing in itself" of Kant-Newton, because it incessantly perturbs it. Hence scientific thought does not attain its truth; there is no scientific truth in the strong and proper sense of the term. Scientific experience is thus only a pseudo-experience. And it cannot be otherwise, for vulgar science is in fact concerned not with the concrete real, but with an abstraction.

To the extent that the scientist thinks or knows his object, what really and concretely exists is the entirety of the Object known by the Subject or of the Subject knowing the Object. The isolated Object is but an abstraction, and that is why it has no fixed and stable continuity (Bestehen) and is perpetually deformed or perturbed. Therefore it cannot serve as a basis for a Truth, which by definition is universally and eternally valid. And the same goes for the "object" of vulgar psychology, gnoseology, and philosophy, which is the Subject artificially isolated from the Object - i.e., yet another abstraction.


Interesting, but what does he give to separate the two, vulgar and non-vulgar? What makes what we can know as truth not an abstraction?

What I mean is that from a certain perspective, "vulgar science" could simply be owning up to our limitations by describing the theories as abstractions.
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Feb, 2010 01:58 am
@Scottydamion,
Scottydamion;129259 wrote:
.

I answer your teaser with "life"


What I had in mind is - the brain. It is the most complex object in the known universe.

Anyway back to electrons.....
0 Replies
 
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Feb, 2010 02:02 am
@Scottydamion,
Scottydamion;129276 wrote:
Interesting, but what does he give to separate the two, vulgar and non-vulgar? What makes what we can know as truth not an abstraction?

What I mean is that from a certain perspective, "vulgar science" could simply be owning up to our limitations by describing the theories as abstractions.


Yes, I think that all science is bound to be "vulgar" in Kojeve's sense. The passage shows what a perfect science would require, which allows us to be a little more humble and self-aware of the vulgar science we can actually manage.

Keep in mind: this is only a fragment. One would have to read more of the book to understand its complete existence. (Which touches the first theme of this post.)
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Feb, 2010 02:05 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;129272 wrote:
Generally speaking Truth ( = revealed Reality) is the coincidence of thought or descriptive knowledge with the concrete real.


Excellent post, but I differ with this part of it. Seethis post on the Correspondence Theory.

Also the use of the word 'revealed' is interesting - in the context of Western phil, 'revealed truth' usually refers to the Bible.
0 Replies
 
Scottydamion
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Feb, 2010 02:07 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;129279 wrote:
Yes, I think that all science is bound to be "vulgar" in Kojeve's sense. The passage shows what a perfect science would require, which allows us to be a little more humble and self-aware of the vulgar science we can actually manage.

Keep in mind: this is only a fragment. One would have to read more of the book to understand its complete existence. (Which touches the first theme of this post.)


Gotcha.

... so now what? I like this thread too much to just stop Sad

---------- Post added 02-17-2010 at 02:12 AM ----------

jeeprs;129277 wrote:
What I had in mind is - the brain. It is the most complex object in the known universe.

Anyway back to electrons.....


I know, and that's why I explained it with life Razz but no I really think in a way life's ability to evolve is more important, and the fruit of that evolution is proving very complex... it's a hard thing to distinguish if the cells that make up the human body are more complex than the brain. Just because we have a better current understanding of one doesn't mean it is less complex.
0 Replies
 
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Feb, 2010 02:20 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;128686 wrote:
The word "star" is not a star. The concept, star, is not a star. Try to keep that is mind if possible.


You have never experienced a star. You have only associated sense-perceptions with a concept. Are you aware of Kant? I don't take him for gospel but he raised some potent issues.

You could not refer to the "real" star without the concept of the star. The "real star" is itself still a concept. All you've got is concepts and sensations and emotions, etc.

---------- Post added 02-17-2010 at 03:28 PM ----------

jeeprs;129280 wrote:
Excellent post, but I differ with this part of it. Seethis post on the Correspondence Theory.

Also the use of the word 'revealed' is interesting - in the context of Western phil, 'revealed truth' usually refers to the Bible.


For me the correspondence theory of truth is just one more tool in the box. But that's because I do not believe that Hegelian Absolute Knowledge is possible. Kojeve's correspondence is quite different from that of modern science, though. All science is vulgar until the Totality is conscious of itself. Talk about ambition!

Kojeve himself didn't agree completely with Hegel, as he was influenced strongly by the criticisms of Marx and Heidegger. But I think Kojeve saw Hegel as metaphysically important as Plato or Kant. Largely because he equated the Concept with Time and Time with Man. But that's for a different thread, as it's fairly mindbending as well as off the subject.

As far as "revelation," Hegel did try to sell his philosophy as a philosophical manifestation of Absolute religion. Also a different thread.

It does tie in with "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God." Without the logos, nothing human is made. Logos, or discourse, makes possible human self-consciousness which is the foundation of science. Without self-consciousness, man's consciousness would be equivalent to what it perceived. It would not think of itself, the perceiving subject. Once self-consciousness happens and the subject is invented, the race is on. The dialectic of subject and object begins, until the discourse reveals their entanglement. (Non-dual = Hegel) (Substance is subject).

---------- Post added 02-17-2010 at 03:29 PM ----------

Scottydamion;129281 wrote:
Gotcha.

... so now what? I like this thread too much to just stop Sad

---------- Post added 02-17-2010 at 02:12 AM ----------

I agree. This is a great issue. I love this aspect of philosophy.
fast
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Feb, 2010 03:02 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;129405 wrote:
You have never experienced a star. You have only associated sense-perceptions with a concept. Are you aware of Kant? I don't take him for gospel but he raised some potent issues.

You could not refer to the "real" star without the concept of the star. The "real star" is itself still a concept. All you've got is concepts and sensations and emotions, etc.


If I am standing on a railroad track, am I standing on a concept?
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Feb, 2010 03:11 pm
@fast,
fast;129419 wrote:
If I am standing on a railroad track, am I standing on a concept?



Yes, you are. Please consider your question, which is explicitly conceptual. At least try to understand me, but then maybe understanding isn't the goal here. Let me assure you that I don't need you to understand this point. It's not my point after all. It's old old news. Kant, Hume, Hegel, etc. But it's fun stuff, man. Like they say. Open your mind.

Don't get me wrong. For everyday use, don't over-think it. I just thought we were playing at philosophy here.
fast
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Feb, 2010 03:15 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;129421 wrote:
Yes, you are. Please consider your question, which is explicitly conceptual. At least try to understand me, but then maybe understanding isn't the goal here. Let me assure you that I don't need you to understand this point. It's not my point after all. It's old old news. Kant, Hume, Hegel, etc. But it's fun stuff, man. Like they say. Open your mind.

Don't get me wrong. For everyday use, don't over-think it. I just thought we were playing at philosophy here.

Am I a concept?

.......
Scottydamion
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Feb, 2010 03:27 pm
@fast,
fast;129422 wrote:
Am I a concept?

.......


.......

yes

To me you are a concept. You probably indeed exist in a physical way, but you are still a concept in my head.
 

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