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A socialist USA?

 
 
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2009 03:13 pm
@Elmud,
Bush had a right wing economy? Massive deficits, massive spending, and free trade agreements? He caused / allowed this problem because he was an idiot, not because he was right wing.
Mr Fight the Power
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2009 03:35 pm
@Theaetetus,
Theaetetus wrote:
You would be wise to go to any dictionary and look up freedom. Freedom to choose is only a limited conception of freedom.

.


Common use is often detrimental to discussion.

I could lock you in my closet in the name of that freedom. Imagine all of that freedom you would gain if I killed you.

You will note that the definition assigned to philosophy reads:

"the power to exercise choice and make decisions without constraint from within or without; autonomy; self-determination"
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2009 03:37 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes wrote:
Bush had a right wing economy? Massive deficits, massive spending, and free trade agreements? He caused / allowed this problem because he was an idiot, not because he was right wing.
Ah so its not political when its right wing that fails because its a idiotic leader but when its left wing its the system..Im so glad you taught me that..
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2009 06:20 pm
@xris,
xris;49363 wrote:
Ah so its not political when its right wing that fails because its a idiotic leader but when its left wing its the system..Im so glad you taught me that..
It's always political, but success or failure is a testament to adaptability and not ideology. Chavez is an idiotic left winger, Bush was an idiotic centrist who had both rightist policies (tax cuts targeted to the wealthy and to corporations, deregulation of financial institutions) and leftist policies (massive deficit spending).

The best fiscal leaders are pragmatists. It doesn't matter if you're a rightist or a leftist if you're an obdurate, inflexible idealogue who can't adapt policy to fit circumstances.

This, by the way, is from a politically left-leaning magazine.

0 Replies
 
BrightNoon
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2009 07:15 pm
@xris,
xris wrote:
I have withdrawn from this debate because of preconceived ideas what a socialist government implies.It does annoy me after 8 long years of a right wing government and it causing the biggest down fall of the economy in modern times socialism is being castrated on the rock of freedom.So socialist would have made such a bigger muck up of it...what a joke.


Well, I agree with you. The 'conservative/right-wing' government of the last 8 years holds the same principles as the 'liberal/left-wing;' they are the same in that they are both statists; both parties feel that government is the solution to all problems. Of course, in good times, we hear 'republicans' talk about the importance of the free market, but when things turn nasty, then it is an 'exceptional circumstance' that requires 'extraordinary action.' In other words, both parties are pragmatic, lacking principles. From now on, I'll stop using the term socialism; statism is more accurate.

LWSleeth wrote:
I don't understand why anyone is talking about total socialism versus total capitalism. Nobody yet has made either work by themselves, and I don't see the US ever turning to total socialism. Aren't we talking about trying out a bit more socialism like other countries have done? Consider this article by Prof. DeLong, "Social Democracy, Anyone?" at TomPaine.com TomPaine.com - Social Democracy, Anyone?

He begins by saying, "Almost all of the world's developed countries consider themselves, and are, social democracies: mixed economies with very large governments performing a wide array of welfare and social insurance functions, and removing large chunks of wealth and commodity distribution from the market. The United States is something different. Or is it? Whatever it has been in the past, the United States in the future will have to choose whether, and how much, it will be a social democracy."


Even if you believe in socialism in theory, what the western world has put in place is not that kind of socialism, which is for the benefit of the people. Socialism as we have it is a system set up by the powerful to enrich themselves and maintain their power. It is a fallacy to assume that without social spending as you described above, people would not have helath care, child care, food, etc. That is propoganda. Did the Roman emperors toss out bread to the mob to help them?
0 Replies
 
LWSleeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2009 08:34 pm
@LWSleeth,
BrightNoon;49396 wrote:
It is a fallacy to assume that without social spending as you described above, people would not have helath care, child care, food, etc. That is propoganda.


It's hard to debate someone so apparently oblivious to the history of human civilization, and to the current state of things. Do you really believe that we, one of the richest nations, have no appreciable number of citizens WITHOUT healthcare, children starving and suffering from poverty, or kids in ghettos getting the worst education of any modern nation?

Of the healthcare available in the American system, do you think it's insignificant that our medical negligence record is the poorest in the developed world, with around 195,000 deaths per year? And what does that statistic make you think of those 20 or so socialized medicine systems around the world that are not only beating us in cost per patient (some big time), but are also killing fewer people in the process . . . mere propaganda?
BrightNoon
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2009 09:09 pm
@LWSleeth,
You prove my point exactly. The social spending that we have is ineffective; it does not achieve its stated goals. Moreover, even if social spending did achieve its goals, most of those goals could be met by freeing society from the parasitic burden of government. The free market has generated more prosperity (for everyone) and provideded more social mobility than any other system in history. Note that the gap between rich and poor has been increasing steadily since the New Deal and socialization of America; the present system (statist, socialist) favors certain groups over others, redistributes wealth upwards, deals in cronyism and favors, and stifles growth. I advise you learn something about the history of American statism/socialism. Consider the relation between the present monetary regime, keynesian economic theory and 'social justice.' Follow the money and see who really benefits. To start, read that long post of mine about the Fed.
Theaetetus
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2009 09:42 pm
@BrightNoon,
BrightNoon wrote:
You prove my point exactly. The social spending that we have is ineffective; it does not achieve its stated goals. Moreover, even if social spending did achieve its goals, most of those goals could be met by freeing society from the parasitic burden of government. The free market has generated more prosperity (for everyone) and provideded more social mobility than any other system in history. Note that the gap between rich and poor has been increasing steadily since the New Deal and socialization of America; the present system (statist, socialist) favors certain groups over others, redistributes wealth upwards, deals in cronyism and favors, and stifles growth. I advise you learn something about the history of American statism/socialism. Consider the relation between the present monetary regime, keynesian economic theory and 'social justice.' Follow the money and see who really benefits. To start, read that long post of mine about the Fed.


The reason why there has been a growing gap between the richest and poorest since WWII has to do with tax cuts. Government has continued to cut taxes since the beginning of Reagan, but has yet to reap the benefits except for a couple of the last years of Clinton's reign.
BrightNoon
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2009 11:10 pm
@Theaetetus,
That's just not true. The government has increased spending far more than it has cut taxes, and the difference has been made up with the printing press or by borrowing.

(1) There has been steadily rising inflation since 1913, but especially since 1971, due to government policies founded on keynesian 'demand-side' economics. Inflation is a regressive tax, both because newly printed money always starts its life in the hands of the rich and powerful, and also because the poor do not have enough disposable income to invest in something that will let them keep up with that inflation; they spend most of their money on consumer goods, which are constantly increasing in price.

(2) Wages have not bene keeping up with inflation, yet people have had access to easy credit and thus made up the difference. Inevitably, this has led to a huge increase in the amount of debt that the average american has to bear.

(3) Inflation and keynesian stimulus both favor consumption and punish savings, hence our low savings rate and consumer based economy, which is currently collapsing. Had the government not maintained their keynesian faith all these years, and done everything it could do to keep americans spending, all of our manufacturing wouldn't have moved overseas. Not only does inflation/demand stimulation destory domestic industry, it prevents innovation and the development of new production by stripping the economy of savings. Any savings that there are go toward financing government debt.

(4) Much of the money taken via the inflation tax from middle america has trickled upwards into the hands of the private owners of the federal reserve system. The banks are far more exploitative than the corperations, because the banks have been given a legal monopoly by the federal government.

Tax cuts are not the problem. Excessive government is the problem, and also the government's owners at the central bank.

Let's talk about the current crisis in particular. I love to hear how the Bush tax cuts are responsible...

The immediate cause of our problems today is the ongoing collapse of the housing market. This occured because the Fed, via low interest rates, and the government, via various social programs, but especially Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, created a speculative bubble in the economy, which burst as do all such bubbles. The other markets collapsed and are collapsing because of default on debt (both mortgages and other consumer debt), or their securitized derivatives, which were widely adopted at the reccomendation of Greenspan and genuinly needed to keep the economy going in the last few years precisely because of the inflationairy regime the government imposes on us, which prevents real savings and encourages lending. In other words, if the Fed offers the banks money at virtually no interest, they'll lend it out to almost anyone, regardless of risk. They did, the loans defaulted, but are the banks surprised, dissapointed? No, the business model is to take as much risk as possible because in the end, the government will support them if things go awry. That is the prime role of the Federal Reserve, lender of last resort. The government ensured this outcome. Neither the false prosperiy of the bubble, nor the bursting of the bubble, nor all the loss of efficiency associated with government interventions via moral hazard, would exist without manipulation of the money supply, and keynsian fiscal policy.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2009 04:53 am
@BrightNoon,
You are still amazing me with your preconceived ideas about socialism, you are constantly confusing it with communism.communist regimes in south america is not a good example just like bushes right wing junta is not representative of democracy.
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2009 04:13 pm
@xris,
xris wrote:
You are still amazing me with your preconceived ideas about socialism, you are constantly confusing it with communism.communist regimes in south america is not a good example just like bushes right wing junta is not representative of democracy.
Chavez' government is not communist. It's a socialist government. It's a bad one, but it's socialist nonetheless.

The best examples of socialist governments are not true socialist societies -- think of Scandinavia, France, Germany, etc. And these countries are better able to have comprehensive social policies largely because they have comparatively limited military spending. On the other hand, most of these countries (except Germany) have massive trade deficits, so they're in an economically vulnerable position. You can justifiably lambast the US health care system, but it's no panacea elsewhere in the world either. Germany's health care system is in desperate trouble -- there was a whole NPR series on this last year.

Avoiding labels and ideologies, but picking realistic priorities is how economies succeed. The Reagan system of deregulation was great for growth of capital because risks can be both taken and hidden -- except that it creates economic bubbles that produce disasters like those seen in 1987, 1991, 2000, and 2008. Highly regulated socialist systems are great when there is a state of equilibrium, but if everyone depends on a government-supported health industry and suddenly the government's tax revenue plummets because of unemployment or a poor export market, then that health industry will collapse along with it.
0 Replies
 
BrightNoon
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2009 06:52 pm
@xris,
xris wrote:
You are still amazing me with your preconceived ideas about socialism, you are constantly confusing it with communism.communist regimes in south america is not a good example just like bushes right wing junta is not representative of democracy.


You are confusing me with your confusion of economic with political systems. Democracy is not the opposite of communism. Capitalism is the opposite of communism. I suppose democracy dosen't really have an opposite, just a series of alternatives. Republicans and democrats in America are statists, socialists, different flavors of the same potato soup. they certainly don't differ or economic policy, and increasingly they do not differ on foreign policy or civil rights. The government, regardless of which party holds power, tends towards socialism, imperialism, corruption with a dash of fascistic police-state/big-brotherness thrown in.
0 Replies
 
Theaetetus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2009 08:25 pm
@xris,
xris wrote:
You are still amazing me with your preconceived ideas about socialism, you are constantly confusing it with communism.communist regimes in south america is not a good example just like bushes right wing junta is not representative of democracy.


There are no communist regimes in South America. The only one in the Western Hemisphere is Cuba and the others are China, North Korea, Laos, and Vietnam.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Feb, 2009 10:46 am
@Theaetetus,
Theaetetus wrote:
There are no communist regimes in South America. The only one in the Western Hemisphere is Cuba and the others are China, North Korea, Laos, and Vietnam.
Im sorry america does not allow communists states, well not if it can help stop them.
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Feb, 2009 11:27 am
@xris,
xris wrote:
Im sorry america does not allow communists states, well not if it can help stop them.
But Europe does. How did that work out?

And America didn't always care... Whatever happened with that Paris Commune in the end?
Didymos Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Feb, 2009 04:03 pm
@Aedes,
As I recall, troops from the Versailles government suppressed the uprising.
0 Replies
 
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Feb, 2009 08:00 pm
@Elmud,
Well, it was sort of complete social meltdown and bedlam. It had communist ideals that were never realized because it arose in a state of war and was suppressed within 2 months. But it apparently was a strange sort of party time in the city too.
0 Replies
 
Ola
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2009 09:42 am
@Joe,
Joe wrote:
"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes her laws."

if you think Our government's checks and powers are in enough control to lean towards any socialist agenda, I think you watch to much news, because its worse then that. Its not for you to identify but instead to resist your government. Its interesting how many people discuss the track we are on when most dont even know who owns it. The people absolutely do not own anything anymore.

peace

There is people and people.
The establishment is still around and owns the vast majority of land and money. The establishment is people.
They just went "into hiding" when it was time to pay the bill.
Socialize cost and privatize profit.
or
Socialize the risk, privatize the profits.
If only the market liberals could practise what they preach.

Let those that made the money the last 20 years now pay.
Now that's socialism.
Ola
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2009 09:57 am
@Justin,
Justin wrote:
"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship." - Alexander Tytler

Alexander Tytler was wrong.
The owners will take action.
A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves back the wealth once stolen from them from the owers (the thieves). From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to the civil war that follows when the owner create a dictatorship to save "their" wealth.

"See Banana republic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia "
0 Replies
 
Ola
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2009 10:26 am
@Elmud,
Reading thru this thread it's like McCarthyism is alive and well in USA. (!)

The unjust feudal society gave birth to liberalism who soon was met with conservatism. Liberalism didn't live up to its promises and so socialism came to be.
Socialism is about justice for the working class. Nothing wrong with that.
As a political ideology, communism is usually considered to be a branch of Socialism.
Communism puts the revolution before human rights. Socialism is all about human rights. The political right says Communism = Socialism, knowing that this is misleading and confusing. Socialism is a real threat to the political right.
See Social democracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
But just like liberalism didn't keep its promises to the people, social democracy have not yet delivered.
0 Replies
 
 

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